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[G] PvZ - +1 Zealot w/ Fast Third

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-13 20:07:38
April 04 2012 20:16 GMT
#1
[image loading]


This build was inspired by a game between QxG.SaSe and Liquid'Ret at the Red Bull LAN recently where he went for this ridiculous +1 Zealot pressure and expanded at his third relatively quick.

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
The +1 Zealot will be just a huge distraction/aggression for Zerg to deal with that you are able to secure your third while you are still pressuring. This +1 Zealot push also negates that mass droning that Zergs tend to do with the fast third hatch.


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
This build will work with either Nexus first or Forge FE. You may choose whichever one. From there you get your gateway after the forge and then your pylon. I will be using Nexus first for this build order.

17 Nexus
17 Forge
17 Gateway
18 Pylon
18 Assimilator (Put 3 probes in immediately)
18 Cannon
20 Gateway (Nexus should be done around this time if you Nexus first)

[image loading]
This is how your building placement should be somewhat like where Zerg can't see your 2nd gateway.


Now you want to rally your main nexus to your natural once you have 2 full rows of probes mining your minerals at the main. That is because it takes 16 probes to mine efficiently. Begin to remove 1 probe at a time from the gas once you hit 92, so once the last one is removed, you should have 100 gas. Once you get 100 gas you get +1 attack and remember to constantly chronoboost your +1. You also do not want to get supplied blocked during this build; it will delay your zealot production. Once your 2nd zealot is almost done building, begin to move your first zealot out only towards your third to clean up any scout (zergling) and watch towers and gain them.

If you manage to do all this, you should have +1 with at least 5 zealots around 7:00 min in the game. Once your first zealot is done and your second zealot is almost out, move out with just your first zealot and remove all lings from your potential third and watch towers, if possible. This first zealot will also scout to see if there is an all-in coming by the amount of army units the Zerg player produced. Next, you want to start moving out with your first three towards the typical third of Zerg. A big bonus is if you are able to scout they are taking a fast third with your initial scouting probe. Anyways, just sit outside their third undetected and wait for the extra zealots to join and once they are with the three zealots, you want to push and cause a lot of damage. Behind this, you want to get your third and your cybernetics core and then your assimilators and begin mining from gas immediately. Remember to have at least 2 cannons built at your third as well. The key to securing your third is by not losing your zealots too too fast but at the same time apply pressure. To achieve this, you should be kiting if possible or position your zealot in a favorable spot where it minimizes the surface area.

[image loading]
If you look at the minimap, you can see I'm about to pressure while I'm building my third up


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
Now a lot of people say there are different ways of scouting your opponent. One of them happens to be by pressuring your opponent and that is exactly what you are doing. Your main objective with the fast +1 zealots is not necessarily to kill their third. If you can, that's awesome but you do not have to. You want to force spines/army units and stop them from droning up. Next is to scout what exactly is he up to. If he defends with roaches, he is most likely going to be investing a bit into his roaches at least from early-mid game. With that you can build the ideal army comp against roaches (immortal/blink stalkers/sentries). If he defends it with just mass lings, you should expect either mutas or infestor play. There are few that do hydras though but these style won't take into effect until later on the game where you will be able to scout this with hallucination.

At my third I usually have 2 additional gateways building creating my wall and at least 2 cannons as well. Your first 50 gas should be used on warp gate and you now want to constantly chronoboost that research. Since you delayed your warp gate tech, abuse the Protoss mechanic that the other races do not have, chronoboost. From there use at least the next 400 gas on sentries to make 4 sentries. You also want to add your 5th and 6th gas once you start making sentries. This is help build up your gas to give you the ability to tech and constantly get upgrades and produce "better" units (stalkers/immortals/colossi/etc) a lot smoother. When warpgate is near 50% done, add 4 more gateways to make a grand total of 8 gateways. Your next gas investment should be in upgrades for +1 armor. Anyways, after my +1 armor, I get my twilight council around 50% of my +1 armor finishing up. This will allow me to get blink which is a must-have upgrade in PvZ in my opinion and most importantly it will allow you to continue with your ground upgrades. After throwing down your twilight council, your next 100 gas investment will be your robotics facility. The robotics facility will allow you to get immortals to help fend off some heavy roach aggression and also allow you to get colossi if you see hydras on the field and then there's the must-have unit, observer and last not but not least if you want to put on some harassment, warp prism.

Once warpgate is done, warp in mostly stalkers and invest the next 100 gas into hallucination. Hallucination in my opinion is the answer to holding off double prong attacks and fending multiple attack paths against Zergs that go for that roach/ling or just heavy roach aggression. What you want to do is once you get hallucination researched, you want to make 2 phoenixes. One phoenix will scout how many bases, how many gas, and their tech structures the Zerg has. The 2nd one will be hovering over the Zerg's army. Now if they go for fast burrow, you have to engage with your cannons. This style will allow you to constantly make immortals and never have to cut immortal production for observers to scout. Now do not be afraid to warp in more sentries if you need to since you will be using quite a bit of energy from them with Hallucination, Guardian Shield, and Force Field. Once you have like 3-4 immortals, you can then cut immortal production and make some observers.


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
Now this all depends on what you scout from either your hallucination/pokes/observer and how you react to it. Most of my games I tend to love going mass blink stalkers and push when I am 2-1 and have blink. Another good time to think about pressuring is the timing of your fourth. Move out while expanding to your fourth. Behind getting your fourth, I like to get a DT shrine up unless I want to commit to Colossus production (if I scout infestors/hydras). If it's mainly just lots of roaches, I like to get a DT shrine and just use DTs to harass and defend.


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
Now this is about the mid-game of the matchup and you have scouted such and such. I'm sure you can find some threads on TL if you search for any other composition.

Roach-centric: Get double robos and make constant immortals and stalkers with sentries. If they have some lings, you want some zealots as well.

Mutas/ling: Defend and build cannons at least to one of your bases then push with your mass blink stalkers. If they base-trade, they should lose significantly since cannons plus warped-in stalkers should do the job.

Roach/ling into Mutas: Basically combine what I said above together. Once you defend the roach/ling and your scout sees him transitioning, just attack and he should die. Upgrades will be really weak for him.

Hydra/Roach: Delay with forcefields as you try to get some colossi out. Zealots do somewhat decent against Hydras but you ideally do not want to engage into his army yet.

Infestor/Ling: Either go HT or Colossi. HT has more success but can at times be annoying since they are slower than your army and can sometimes be caught out of position. Storm does well against lings and infested terrans. Feedback does well against Infestors.


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
I've only done this a few times so this build is still in raw stage at the moment. But for now, it's basically map that has a decent way of holding the third so like Antiga Shipyard, Cloud Kingdom LE comes to mind. But I've won games on Korhal Compound with it and Shakuras Plateau as well.


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
http://blip.tv/day9tv/liquid-ret-vs-quantic-sase-g1-red-bull-lan-tournament-finals-6042518 - QxG.SaSe vs. Liquid'Ret at the Red Bull LAN
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2combat/b/313706983 - Starts from the beginning and later on in that vod, I go over the build via replay.

http://www.twitch.tv/sc2combat/b/313812009 - Starts at 1:42:00



I'll be posting more soon. If someone can find the vod between SaSe and Ret where he does this build, that would be awesome.


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
Most replays will have flaws in them (mainly timings) but the fact I still hold the aggression and still win should show the potential of this build.

areaFlatLine vs Barhorst [PvZ] - Shakuras Plateau
areaFlatLine vs ePiRNA [PvZ] - Cloud Kingdom LE
areaFlatLine vs ggunz [PvZ] - Shakuras Plateau
FlatLine vs Joip [PvZ] - Shakuras Plateau
Slurpee vs CaLibuR [PvZ] - Entombed Valley
Slurpee vs AGGhost [PvZ] - Cloud Kingdom LE
Slurpee vs CaLibuR [PvZ] - Korhal Compound LE
areaFlatLine vs ReducEntropy [PvZ] - Shakuras Plateau
areaFlatLine vs Upgrayedd [PvZ] - Korhal Compound LE

I'll post more whenever I can


[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
Will update this whenever possible.


If you like what you see, you can definitely tune into my stream at http://twitch.tv/flatlinesc2 and check out other builds on my youtube page at http://youtube.com/flatlinesc2.

UPDATE:
April 9, 2012

  • Added more detailed information within the Opening section.
  • Changed it where you want to get Hallucination after Warp Gate. This will significantly help against double prong attacks and fending multiple attack paths.
  • More replays have been added
Incandenza
Profile Joined August 2011
United States56 Posts
April 04 2012 20:25 GMT
#2
Very cool. Here's hoping this build gets some steam ... though the way ret responded to it in game 2 of that series raises serious questions of its validity on some maps.
sc2observer.net
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-04 20:33:59
April 04 2012 20:33 GMT
#3
I like the concept of Protoss getting a third so fast and the early pressure with zealots is nice.

Still, I'm skeptical about whether protoss can hold their 3rd against a 3 base roach/ling style. Stephano typically moves out around 10:30 with +1 and 150+ supply of Speed Roach/Ling and maxes out and constantly trades armies. Can you get enough gateway units/immortals to hold this off?
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
PlacidPanda
Profile Joined September 2011
United States246 Posts
April 04 2012 20:49 GMT
#4
On April 05 2012 05:33 TangSC wrote:
I like the concept of Protoss getting a third so fast and the early pressure with zealots is nice.

Still, I'm skeptical about whether protoss can hold their 3rd against a 3 base roach/ling style. Stephano typically moves out around 10:30 with +1 and 150+ supply of Speed Roach/Ling and maxes out and constantly trades armies. Can you get enough gateway units/immortals to hold this off?


This style relies on defending a 6/7 gate press at around the 10:00 mark, the zealots i assume force units early which severely hampers this style from getting on to its feet which will cause this kind of push to be delayed while still keeping up in economy with the zerg.
Squirtle Hwaitting!!
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
April 04 2012 20:57 GMT
#5
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
April 04 2012 20:58 GMT
#6
On April 05 2012 05:49 PlacidPanda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2012 05:33 TangSC wrote:
I like the concept of Protoss getting a third so fast and the early pressure with zealots is nice.

Still, I'm skeptical about whether protoss can hold their 3rd against a 3 base roach/ling style. Stephano typically moves out around 10:30 with +1 and 150+ supply of Speed Roach/Ling and maxes out and constantly trades armies. Can you get enough gateway units/immortals to hold this off?


This style relies on defending a 6/7 gate press at around the 10:00 mark, the zealots i assume force units early which severely hampers this style from getting on to its feet which will cause this kind of push to be delayed while still keeping up in economy with the zerg.


precisely...in the replays I've provided I was even able to hold off the 12 min. 200 roach push...yes defending is probably the hardest part of this build but I've been able to hold off most pushes.
HoMM
Profile Joined July 2010
Estonia635 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-04 21:11:46
April 04 2012 21:08 GMT
#7
On April 05 2012 05:16 .kv wrote:

I'll be posting more soon. If someone can find the vod between SaSe and Ret where he does this build, that would be awesome.


http://blip.tv/day9tv/liquid-ret-vs-quantic-sase-g1-red-bull-lan-tournament-finals-6042518

I'm a huge fan of SaSe and a un.fan (lol) of PvZ, here's my opinions on this build..

There's a specific amount of damage that your +1 zealots should do for this build to be viable, but if the zerg holds it well you're kind of in a weak position.
But amazing guide, 10/10 well formated and I liked it.


On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo.


SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses.
SC2 Masters Protoss - LoL Diamond adc/support www.twitter.com/hommlol www.youtube.com/homm87
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
April 04 2012 21:19 GMT
#8
On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:


Show nested quote +
On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo.


SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses.


I dont think sase cared enough to show his real style tbh.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
April 04 2012 21:27 GMT
#9
On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2012 05:16 .kv wrote:

I'll be posting more soon. If someone can find the vod between SaSe and Ret where he does this build, that would be awesome.


http://blip.tv/day9tv/liquid-ret-vs-quantic-sase-g1-red-bull-lan-tournament-finals-6042518

I'm a huge fan of SaSe and a un.fan (lol) of PvZ, here's my opinions on this build..

There's a specific amount of damage that your +1 zealots should do for this build to be viable, but if the zerg holds it well you're kind of in a weak position.
But amazing guide, 10/10 well formated and I liked it.


Show nested quote +
On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo.


SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses.


thanks for the link

And yes you have to do somewhat of a damage since you invested really early and heavy on the +1. But you don't have to sac all your zealots, I usually retreat with some if I know I can't do anymore damage.
TheRealFluid
Profile Joined June 2011
United States501 Posts
April 04 2012 21:48 GMT
#10
Double gateway style has been around since the inception of heavy infestor play in PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259635. Of course, the third nexus was avoided opting for more agressive play but there isn't anything new here. Good build nonetheless.
"The wings don't make you fly and the crown don't make you king.||"What do you say to god of gg? NOT TODAY" -John the Translator. "Give me Command" -Yellow.
Latchy
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia121 Posts
April 04 2012 23:09 GMT
#11
Great idea!! Will defidently try this out over the mid-semester holidays.

Just one question about the build, when do you put your probes back mining the gas and grab you second, third, fourth, etc gases? I may have misread but I couldnt seem to find i.
"Screw with Nestea and you catch a Nes.T.D" - Tasteless
.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
April 04 2012 23:53 GMT
#12
On April 05 2012 08:09 Latchy wrote:
Great idea!! Will defidently try this out over the mid-semester holidays.

Just one question about the build, when do you put your probes back mining the gas and grab you second, third, fourth, etc gases? I may have misread but I couldnt seem to find i.


You want to start moving out with your first three towards the middle of the map and deny any scouting information from Zerg as much as possible. From here, you want to get your third and get your cyber next and then your assimilators and begin mining from gas immediately. Remember to have cannons built at your third as well.


hope it works and hope to hear how it does for ya
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
April 05 2012 00:02 GMT
#13
meh, this style is quite weak nowadays. Zerg can easily hold of those couple zealots with just a couple roaches. Yes you delay their economy and their maxout a bit but you've also significantly delayed your own sentry build up. The result tends to be that you die while trying to defend your third..

Also the guide is very poor, the headers are flashy but the details are just missing.
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
April 05 2012 00:16 GMT
#14
On April 05 2012 09:02 Markwerf wrote:
meh, this style is quite weak nowadays. Zerg can easily hold of those couple zealots with just a couple roaches. Yes you delay their economy and their maxout a bit but you've also significantly delayed your own sentry build up. The result tends to be that you die while trying to defend your third..

Also the guide is very poor, the headers are flashy but the details are just missing.

This pretty much summarizes it. Zerg's know this timing well and will have roaches ready before hand. Your attack will do nothing, and they will proceed to shut down your third hard.
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
April 05 2012 00:18 GMT
#15
On April 05 2012 09:02 Markwerf wrote:
meh, this style is quite weak nowadays. Zerg can easily hold of those couple zealots with just a couple roaches. Yes you delay their economy and their maxout a bit but you've also significantly delayed your own sentry build up. The result tends to be that you die while trying to defend your third..

Also the guide is very poor, the headers are flashy but the details are just missing.


You get the 4 gases immediately behind it so you can get the gas to begin getting the sentries and warp gates...plus since you have been mining a surplus of minerals, cannons with good sim city will do the job of defending. I've faced different counter pressure from zergs and still haven't found a replay where I felt like it was impossible to defend my third.

And can you please elaborate on what details exactly I'm missing that doesn't satisfy you? I'm honestly sorry that I do not know the in-game time for every moment or the exact food for every moment. It's all based on the feel of the game and how your income is looking.
kawaiiryuko
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States368 Posts
April 05 2012 00:36 GMT
#16
In Stephano's fast-max roach style, the warren doesn't go down until almost 7m mark. Assuming that Toss has 5 +1 Zealots @ 7 min, I would imagine that you could probably snipe the third (and maybe a queen if one has been transferred over) - roaches wouldn't be able to pop until 8:22 at the earliest (assuming the 7min roach warren).

With positioning between minerals, zealots can hold off almost infinity speedlings.
CaptainHaz
Profile Joined December 2010
United States240 Posts
April 05 2012 00:37 GMT
#17
Have you considered mentioning zealot and second gate positioning to prevent overlord scouting? I feel like if they notice you stockpiling zealots fast enough, your push becomes worthless and you are really far behind.
All of us warned you of the big white face.
.kv
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2332 Posts
April 05 2012 00:40 GMT
#18
On April 05 2012 09:37 CaptainHaz wrote:
Have you considered mentioning zealot and second gate positioning to prevent overlord scouting? I feel like if they notice you stockpiling zealots fast enough, your push becomes worthless and you are really far behind.



thanks added that information to the OP

completely forgot about mentioning the 2nd gateway positioning
TechSc2
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Netherlands554 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-05 00:52:22
April 05 2012 00:51 GMT
#19
On April 05 2012 09:02 Markwerf wrote:
meh, this style is quite weak nowadays. Zerg can easily hold of those couple zealots with just a couple roaches. Yes you delay their economy and their maxout a bit but you've also significantly delayed your own sentry build up. The result tends to be that you die while trying to defend your third..

Also the guide is very poor, the headers are flashy but the details are just missing.


Uhm since when do you get your roach warren at 5 minutes to have roaches out at the 6 minute mark?

Sase's pressure soncists out of 5-6 zealots at the 6:30 minute mark, and if you have a roach warren up by then, then congratulations, you fell behind in the econ war because that early of an roach warren SEVERELY hampers your production.

Consider you have to make roaches then to defend as well, just throws you back even more.

This is a style that hasn't been completely ironed out yet, and you already shoot it down? it took stephano longer then 2 minutes to figure out how to get a 200/200 roach army at 12 minutes.
Twitch.tv/TechGTV / Twitter.com/TechGTV
TechSc2
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Netherlands554 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-05 00:52:08
April 05 2012 00:51 GMT
#20
double post,
Twitch.tv/TechGTV / Twitter.com/TechGTV
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