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This build was inspired by a game between QxG.SaSe and Liquid'Ret at the Red Bull LAN recently where he went for this ridiculous +1 Zealot pressure and expanded at his third relatively quick.
+ Show Spoiler +The +1 Zealot will be just a huge distraction/aggression for Zerg to deal with that you are able to secure your third while you are still pressuring. This +1 Zealot push also negates that mass droning that Zergs tend to do with the fast third hatch.
+ Show Spoiler +This build will work with either Nexus first or Forge FE. You may choose whichever one. From there you get your gateway after the forge and then your pylon. I will be using Nexus first for this build order.17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Gateway 18 Pylon 18 Assimilator (Put 3 probes in immediately) 18 Cannon 20 Gateway (Nexus should be done around this time if you Nexus first) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sWL11.jpg)
This is how your building placement should be somewhat like where Zerg can't see your 2nd gateway.Now you want to rally your main nexus to your natural once you have 2 full rows of probes mining your minerals at the main. That is because it takes 16 probes to mine efficiently. Begin to remove 1 probe at a time from the gas once you hit 92, so once the last one is removed, you should have 100 gas. Once you get 100 gas you get +1 attack and remember to constantly chronoboost your +1. You also do not want to get supplied blocked during this build; it will delay your zealot production. Once your 2nd zealot is almost done building, begin to move your first zealot out only towards your third to clean up any scout (zergling) and watch towers and gain them. If you manage to do all this, you should have +1 with at least 5 zealots around 7:00 min in the game. Once your first zealot is done and your second zealot is almost out, move out with just your first zealot and remove all lings from your potential third and watch towers, if possible. This first zealot will also scout to see if there is an all-in coming by the amount of army units the Zerg player produced. Next, you want to start moving out with your first three towards the typical third of Zerg. A big bonus is if you are able to scout they are taking a fast third with your initial scouting probe. Anyways, just sit outside their third undetected and wait for the extra zealots to join and once they are with the three zealots, you want to push and cause a lot of damage. Behind this, you want to get your third and your cybernetics core and then your assimilators and begin mining from gas immediately. Remember to have at least 2 cannons built at your third as well. The key to securing your third is by not losing your zealots too too fast but at the same time apply pressure. To achieve this, you should be kiting if possible or position your zealot in a favorable spot where it minimizes the surface area. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e1cW4.jpg) If you look at the minimap, you can see I'm about to pressure while I'm building my third up
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RVrv9.png)
+ Show Spoiler +Now a lot of people say there are different ways of scouting your opponent. One of them happens to be by pressuring your opponent and that is exactly what you are doing. Your main objective with the fast +1 zealots is not necessarily to kill their third. If you can, that's awesome but you do not have to. You want to force spines/army units and stop them from droning up. Next is to scout what exactly is he up to. If he defends with roaches, he is most likely going to be investing a bit into his roaches at least from early-mid game. With that you can build the ideal army comp against roaches (immortal/blink stalkers/sentries). If he defends it with just mass lings, you should expect either mutas or infestor play. There are few that do hydras though but these style won't take into effect until later on the game where you will be able to scout this with hallucination.
At my third I usually have 2 additional gateways building creating my wall and at least 2 cannons as well. Your first 50 gas should be used on warp gate and you now want to constantly chronoboost that research. Since you delayed your warp gate tech, abuse the Protoss mechanic that the other races do not have, chronoboost. From there use at least the next 400 gas on sentries to make 4 sentries. You also want to add your 5th and 6th gas once you start making sentries. This is help build up your gas to give you the ability to tech and constantly get upgrades and produce "better" units (stalkers/immortals/colossi/etc) a lot smoother. When warpgate is near 50% done, add 4 more gateways to make a grand total of 8 gateways. Your next gas investment should be in upgrades for +1 armor. Anyways, after my +1 armor, I get my twilight council around 50% of my +1 armor finishing up. This will allow me to get blink which is a must-have upgrade in PvZ in my opinion and most importantly it will allow you to continue with your ground upgrades. After throwing down your twilight council, your next 100 gas investment will be your robotics facility. The robotics facility will allow you to get immortals to help fend off some heavy roach aggression and also allow you to get colossi if you see hydras on the field and then there's the must-have unit, observer and last not but not least if you want to put on some harassment, warp prism.
Once warpgate is done, warp in mostly stalkers and invest the next 100 gas into hallucination. Hallucination in my opinion is the answer to holding off double prong attacks and fending multiple attack paths against Zergs that go for that roach/ling or just heavy roach aggression. What you want to do is once you get hallucination researched, you want to make 2 phoenixes. One phoenix will scout how many bases, how many gas, and their tech structures the Zerg has. The 2nd one will be hovering over the Zerg's army. Now if they go for fast burrow, you have to engage with your cannons. This style will allow you to constantly make immortals and never have to cut immortal production for observers to scout. Now do not be afraid to warp in more sentries if you need to since you will be using quite a bit of energy from them with Hallucination, Guardian Shield, and Force Field. Once you have like 3-4 immortals, you can then cut immortal production and make some observers.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N2llh.png)
+ Show Spoiler +Now this all depends on what you scout from either your hallucination/pokes/observer and how you react to it. Most of my games I tend to love going mass blink stalkers and push when I am 2-1 and have blink. Another good time to think about pressuring is the timing of your fourth. Move out while expanding to your fourth. Behind getting your fourth, I like to get a DT shrine up unless I want to commit to Colossus production (if I scout infestors/hydras). If it's mainly just lots of roaches, I like to get a DT shrine and just use DTs to harass and defend.
+ Show Spoiler +Now this is about the mid-game of the matchup and you have scouted such and such. I'm sure you can find some threads on TL if you search for any other composition.
Roach-centric: Get double robos and make constant immortals and stalkers with sentries. If they have some lings, you want some zealots as well.
Mutas/ling: Defend and build cannons at least to one of your bases then push with your mass blink stalkers. If they base-trade, they should lose significantly since cannons plus warped-in stalkers should do the job.
Roach/ling into Mutas: Basically combine what I said above together. Once you defend the roach/ling and your scout sees him transitioning, just attack and he should die. Upgrades will be really weak for him.
Hydra/Roach: Delay with forcefields as you try to get some colossi out. Zealots do somewhat decent against Hydras but you ideally do not want to engage into his army yet.
Infestor/Ling: Either go HT or Colossi. HT has more success but can at times be annoying since they are slower than your army and can sometimes be caught out of position. Storm does well against lings and infested terrans. Feedback does well against Infestors.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fWoKw.png)
+ Show Spoiler +I've only done this a few times so this build is still in raw stage at the moment. But for now, it's basically map that has a decent way of holding the third so like Antiga Shipyard, Cloud Kingdom LE comes to mind. But I've won games on Korhal Compound with it and Shakuras Plateau as well.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +Will update this whenever possible.
If you like what you see, you can definitely tune into my stream at http://twitch.tv/flatlinesc2 and check out other builds on my youtube page at http://youtube.com/flatlinesc2.
UPDATE:
April 9, 2012
- Added more detailed information within the Opening section.
- Changed it where you want to get Hallucination after Warp Gate. This will significantly help against double prong attacks and fending multiple attack paths.
- More replays have been added
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Very cool. Here's hoping this build gets some steam ... though the way ret responded to it in game 2 of that series raises serious questions of its validity on some maps.
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I like the concept of Protoss getting a third so fast and the early pressure with zealots is nice.
Still, I'm skeptical about whether protoss can hold their 3rd against a 3 base roach/ling style. Stephano typically moves out around 10:30 with +1 and 150+ supply of Speed Roach/Ling and maxes out and constantly trades armies. Can you get enough gateway units/immortals to hold this off?
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On April 05 2012 05:33 TangSC wrote:
I like the concept of Protoss getting a third so fast and the early pressure with zealots is nice.
Still, I'm skeptical about whether protoss can hold their 3rd against a 3 base roach/ling style. Stephano typically moves out around 10:30 with +1 and 150+ supply of Speed Roach/Ling and maxes out and constantly trades armies. Can you get enough gateway units/immortals to hold this off?
This style relies on defending a 6/7 gate press at around the 10:00 mark, the zealots i assume force units early which severely hampers this style from getting on to its feet which will cause this kind of push to be delayed while still keeping up in economy with the zerg.
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Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo.
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On April 05 2012 05:49 PlacidPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 05:33 TangSC wrote:
I like the concept of Protoss getting a third so fast and the early pressure with zealots is nice.
Still, I'm skeptical about whether protoss can hold their 3rd against a 3 base roach/ling style. Stephano typically moves out around 10:30 with +1 and 150+ supply of Speed Roach/Ling and maxes out and constantly trades armies. Can you get enough gateway units/immortals to hold this off? This style relies on defending a 6/7 gate press at around the 10:00 mark, the zealots i assume force units early which severely hampers this style from getting on to its feet which will cause this kind of push to be delayed while still keeping up in economy with the zerg.
precisely...in the replays I've provided I was even able to hold off the 12 min. 200 roach push...yes defending is probably the hardest part of this build but I've been able to hold off most pushes.
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On April 05 2012 05:16 .kv wrote:
I'll be posting more soon. If someone can find the vod between SaSe and Ret where he does this build, that would be awesome.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/liquid-ret-vs-quantic-sase-g1-red-bull-lan-tournament-finals-6042518
I'm a huge fan of SaSe and a un.fan (lol) of PvZ, here's my opinions on this build..
There's a specific amount of damage that your +1 zealots should do for this build to be viable, but if the zerg holds it well you're kind of in a weak position.
But amazing guide, 10/10 well formated and I liked it.
On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo.
SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses.
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On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo. SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses.
I dont think sase cared enough to show his real style tbh.
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On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 05:16 .kv wrote:
I'll be posting more soon. If someone can find the vod between SaSe and Ret where he does this build, that would be awesome. http://blip.tv/day9tv/liquid-ret-vs-quantic-sase-g1-red-bull-lan-tournament-finals-6042518I'm a huge fan of SaSe and a un.fan (lol) of PvZ, here's my opinions on this build.. There's a specific amount of damage that your +1 zealots should do for this build to be viable, but if the zerg holds it well you're kind of in a weak position. But amazing guide, 10/10 well formated and I liked it. Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo. SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses.
thanks for the link
And yes you have to do somewhat of a damage since you invested really early and heavy on the +1. But you don't have to sac all your zealots, I usually retreat with some if I know I can't do anymore damage.
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Great idea!! Will defidently try this out over the mid-semester holidays.
Just one question about the build, when do you put your probes back mining the gas and grab you second, third, fourth, etc gases? I may have misread but I couldnt seem to find i.
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On April 05 2012 08:09 Latchy wrote:
Great idea!! Will defidently try this out over the mid-semester holidays.
Just one question about the build, when do you put your probes back mining the gas and grab you second, third, fourth, etc gases? I may have misread but I couldnt seem to find i.
You want to start moving out with your first three towards the middle of the map and deny any scouting information from Zerg as much as possible. From here, you want to get your third and get your cyber next and then your assimilators and begin mining from gas immediately. Remember to have cannons built at your third as well.
hope it works and hope to hear how it does for ya 
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meh, this style is quite weak nowadays. Zerg can easily hold of those couple zealots with just a couple roaches. Yes you delay their economy and their maxout a bit but you've also significantly delayed your own sentry build up. The result tends to be that you die while trying to defend your third..
Also the guide is very poor, the headers are flashy but the details are just missing.
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On April 05 2012 09:02 Markwerf wrote:
meh, this style is quite weak nowadays. Zerg can easily hold of those couple zealots with just a couple roaches. Yes you delay their economy and their maxout a bit but you've also significantly delayed your own sentry build up. The result tends to be that you die while trying to defend your third..
Also the guide is very poor, the headers are flashy but the details are just missing.
This pretty much summarizes it. Zerg's know this timing well and will have roaches ready before hand. Your attack will do nothing, and they will proceed to shut down your third hard.
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On April 05 2012 09:02 Markwerf wrote:
meh, this style is quite weak nowadays. Zerg can easily hold of those couple zealots with just a couple roaches. Yes you delay their economy and their maxout a bit but you've also significantly delayed your own sentry build up. The result tends to be that you die while trying to defend your third..
Also the guide is very poor, the headers are flashy but the details are just missing.
You get the 4 gases immediately behind it so you can get the gas to begin getting the sentries and warp gates...plus since you have been mining a surplus of minerals, cannons with good sim city will do the job of defending. I've faced different counter pressure from zergs and still haven't found a replay where I felt like it was impossible to defend my third.
And can you please elaborate on what details exactly I'm missing that doesn't satisfy you? I'm honestly sorry that I do not know the in-game time for every moment or the exact food for every moment. It's all based on the feel of the game and how your income is looking.
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In Stephano's fast-max roach style, the warren doesn't go down until almost 7m mark. Assuming that Toss has 5 +1 Zealots @ 7 min, I would imagine that you could probably snipe the third (and maybe a queen if one has been transferred over) - roaches wouldn't be able to pop until 8:22 at the earliest (assuming the 7min roach warren).
With positioning between minerals, zealots can hold off almost infinity speedlings.
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Have you considered mentioning zealot and second gate positioning to prevent overlord scouting? I feel like if they notice you stockpiling zealots fast enough, your push becomes worthless and you are really far behind.
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On April 05 2012 09:37 CaptainHaz wrote:
Have you considered mentioning zealot and second gate positioning to prevent overlord scouting? I feel like if they notice you stockpiling zealots fast enough, your push becomes worthless and you are really far behind.
thanks added that information to the OP
completely forgot about mentioning the 2nd gateway positioning
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On April 05 2012 09:02 Markwerf wrote:
meh, this style is quite weak nowadays. Zerg can easily hold of those couple zealots with just a couple roaches. Yes you delay their economy and their maxout a bit but you've also significantly delayed your own sentry build up. The result tends to be that you die while trying to defend your third..
Also the guide is very poor, the headers are flashy but the details are just missing.
Uhm since when do you get your roach warren at 5 minutes to have roaches out at the 6 minute mark?
Sase's pressure soncists out of 5-6 zealots at the 6:30 minute mark, and if you have a roach warren up by then, then congratulations, you fell behind in the econ war because that early of an roach warren SEVERELY hampers your production.
Consider you have to make roaches then to defend as well, just throws you back even more.
This is a style that hasn't been completely ironed out yet, and you already shoot it down? it took stephano longer then 2 minutes to figure out how to get a 200/200 roach army at 12 minutes.
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double post, 
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On April 05 2012 09:36 kawaiiryuko wrote:In Stephano's fast-max roach style, the warren doesn't go down until almost 7m mark. Assuming that Toss has 5 +1 Zealots @ 7 min, I would imagine that you could probably snipe the third (and maybe a queen if one has been transferred over) - roaches wouldn't be able to pop until 8:22 at the earliest (assuming the 7min roach warren). With positioning between minerals, zealots can hold off almost infinity speedlings.
Yeah, but there`s no divine law binding the Zerg to build the Roach Warren at 7min. He can scout what`s up early enough and react by placing it earlier.
The main concern about the build seems to be the delayed tech (saving the zealots or not is not that relevant in dealing with the roach spam follow-up). I am willing to do some yabot runs to see what is the impact on gas overall compared to normal 20-21 double assimilator out of FFE.
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I had someone do this to me the other day and follow up with Stalker/Sentry/Immortal with double robo, but if the zerg has roaches when the zealot pressure hits (which they should, and I did), then all they have to do is attack you right after and keep making units. Yes, zerg has to cut a bit to do this, but whenever I scout a lot of zealots and chrono on +1 or gates then I make this sacrifice and it will always put the zerg way ahead. This build relies on the zerg reacting poorly to the zealot pressure and then hoping they don't see your third and attack it before you have sentries, stalkers, and some defense at your third.
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On April 05 2012 06:19 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo. SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses. I dont think sase cared enough to show his real style tbh.
That was a game in the final series in a tournament for a $500 increase in prize money, not really a ladder game or a meaningless pool play game. I think that we can throw the idea he didn't care right out the window.
The guide is good and I am definitely going to try this build, but I feel like a few of the sections should be expanded. In particular the midgame one needs work "You want to have at least 8 gateways and constantly make units from the gateways available while you are researching warp gate." that advice is not very helpful.
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added a youtube video to the OP
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On April 05 2012 10:06 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 06:19 Arcanefrost wrote:On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo. SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses. I dont think sase cared enough to show his real style tbh. That was a game in the final series in a tournament for a $500 increase in prize money, not really a ladder game or a meaningless pool play game. I think that we can throw the idea he didn't care right out the window. The guide is good and I am definitely going to try this build, but I feel like a few of the sections should be expanded. In particular the midgame one needs work "You want to have at least 8 gateways and constantly make units from the gateways available while you are researching warp gate." that advice is not very helpful.
thank you for pointing that out. I have edited that section to be a bit more detail. I hope it helps out ^_^
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FWIW, quoting from another thread about how to counter Stephano's ZvP 12min Roach Build (found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894):
On March 20 2012 18:05 RaNgeD wrote:
That being said, I really like what SaSe was doing in Game 1 against ret. I don't know how viable it is, and I don't know how zergs will react to a fast 3rd like that once they've played against it a few times and have had the chance to sit down and study it out a bit. But the general idea is amazing to me.
In my last 100-200 pvz games I've done the fast 3rd off of 4 gates/robo like mentioned earlier in this thread, and from my experience I can say this:
The times when zerg decide to max on roaches at 12 minutes and kill me, 50% of the time I die. And the games that I do win, it was usually that the zerg made some critical mistake, like letting me cut off 1/2 of 1/4 of his roaches and kill them for free. I've made a lot of adjustments to the build to try and survive that 12 minute wave of 200/200 roaches, like getting hallucination instead of an obs, that way i'm able to get an extra immortal out, and just use cannons and detection. Keep in mind that these are ladder games; if I could find some customs against good zergs it would be nice, but for the most part, these players aren't even near the calibre of stephano. I can't say for sure, but i'm coming to the conclusion that I think the 3rd base with this current build is too slow. The 3rd base doesn't kick in enough before you are over-run with roaches.
and
On March 21 2012 01:52 kcdc wrote:
I think that Sase's opening is really interesting as well, but I think even that fast of a third will wind up well behind in army size. First, a stalker roughly equals a roach in combat strength, but costs twice as much. Second, Z has to spend substantially less on infrastructure for the 3-base roach max compared to a 3-base Protoss defense.
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So ~1000 minerals is the minimum infrastructure difference as I see it. If you want some extra cannons or blink or a robo support bay or some extra gates, it's going to add up pretty fast.
Given that your build is based on SaSe's, and these are two experienced players talking about the feasibility of SaSe's build vs. Stephano's ZvP roach build, I figure it would be relevant to bring that to this thread.
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On April 05 2012 10:06 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 06:19 Arcanefrost wrote:On April 05 2012 06:08 HoMM wrote:On April 05 2012 05:57 Arcanefrost wrote:
Stephano style is not holdable with this in my experience, I like the idea but it just doesn't really work out that well imo. SaSe intentionally chose this to counter Ret's macro-roach style, even though he still lost, him even doing the build vs Ret means he considers this viable, which means that it is viable. Obviously he knows a lot more about this build because he has practiced and discussed it with Naniwa and the Startale protosses. I dont think sase cared enough to show his real style tbh. That was a game in the final series in a tournament for a $500 increase in prize money, not really a ladder game or a meaningless pool play game. I think that we can throw the idea he didn't care right out the window.
He just does generic PvZ builds, not the builds that show his real style. Pro players don't show their best builds if there's little money on the line.
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On April 05 2012 14:13 kawaiiryuko wrote:FWIW, quoting from another thread about how to counter Stephano's ZvP 12min Roach Build (found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894):Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 18:05 RaNgeD wrote:
That being said, I really like what SaSe was doing in Game 1 against ret. I don't know how viable it is, and I don't know how zergs will react to a fast 3rd like that once they've played against it a few times and have had the chance to sit down and study it out a bit. But the general idea is amazing to me.
In my last 100-200 pvz games I've done the fast 3rd off of 4 gates/robo like mentioned earlier in this thread, and from my experience I can say this:
The times when zerg decide to max on roaches at 12 minutes and kill me, 50% of the time I die. And the games that I do win, it was usually that the zerg made some critical mistake, like letting me cut off 1/2 of 1/4 of his roaches and kill them for free. I've made a lot of adjustments to the build to try and survive that 12 minute wave of 200/200 roaches, like getting hallucination instead of an obs, that way i'm able to get an extra immortal out, and just use cannons and detection. Keep in mind that these are ladder games; if I could find some customs against good zergs it would be nice, but for the most part, these players aren't even near the calibre of stephano. I can't say for sure, but i'm coming to the conclusion that I think the 3rd base with this current build is too slow. The 3rd base doesn't kick in enough before you are over-run with roaches. and Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 01:52 kcdc wrote:
I think that Sase's opening is really interesting as well, but I think even that fast of a third will wind up well behind in army size. First, a stalker roughly equals a roach in combat strength, but costs twice as much. Second, Z has to spend substantially less on infrastructure for the 3-base roach max compared to a 3-base Protoss defense.
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So ~1000 minerals is the minimum infrastructure difference as I see it. If you want some extra cannons or blink or a robo support bay or some extra gates, it's going to add up pretty fast.
Given that your build is based on SaSe's, and these are two experienced players talking about the feasibility of SaSe's build vs. Stephano's ZvP roach build, I figure it would be relevant to bring that to this thread.
thanks for the quotes...nice to see higher level players seeing potential in this build
and @Arcanefrost if you do not wish to contribute to this build, please stop posting in this thread. Your post are just assumptions that you think you know SaSe and trying to tell us he didn't try in the finals of the Red Bull LAN. How do you know that exactly? Did you ask him?
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More information has been added as well as replays ^_^
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I have been giving this a try, really fun to do something different and also to get a fast third. Powering with 2 robo's is really strong too :D I just feel like heavy mutas is a slight weakness here, considering blink is so late. But I guess you can do cannons to deal with that to some degree.
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It sounds like sc:bw PvZ fast third, but roaches are the real problem imho.
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Looking at the picture under "Opening", I see it's 7:35 into the game and your Cybernetics Core is just finishing as your third is started. How do you stop the Zerg from Overlord scouting everything you're doing up to this point, especially on a 2-player map like Cloud Kingdom where the Overlord will be sent directly to your base every time?
If NOTHING else he should be able to see the upgrade working on the Forge, which should tell him a Zealot timing is coming and he should really figure that it's coming for his third base. I think this can take games off people for a while by surprise, but honestly I just see it being added to the pile of attacks Zerg have to figure out... and then curbstomp with Roaches. They won't be playing true Stephano-Style with an earlier set of Roaches but they will be playing from ahead.
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Ok I've been experimenting with fast 3rd builds lately (~6:30-7:30ish 3rds). First off IMO there is absolutely no reason, absolutely none, why you would go FFE over this opening (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE) if your goal is to zealot pressure of any kind. With a gate-nexus opening your zealot pressure can hit FASTER with MORE zealots. The economy from both openings is about the same, but with a gate-nexus you have warpgate tech done to reinforce your initial zealot pressure. I've played around with a ton of double gate zealot pressure builds out of FFE and they are just plain horrible compared to out of a gate-nexus opening, it's not even close. My practice partners would easily count the number of zealots I had trucking it across the map and make exactly the right amount of units to stop it and wouldn't miss a beat econ-wise. Not so when you have warpgate tech done.
For an example of one way to do zealot pressure out of a gate-nexus opener check out this guide (there are various ways you can do it this is just one variant): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275
Second, go twilight -> single robo instead of double robo into twilight. The advantages of twilight:
-Faster access to +2 weapons. This is not as insignificant as it sounds because a +3 weapons colossi timing is, IMO, one of the strongest timings a protoss player can exploit in the current 3-hatch mass roach metagame. The timing is meant to punish the broodlord transition, so obviously the faster the better. Also due to the fast +2 weapons (which will be done when a max roach push hits you) it somewhat hedges the need to get a lot of immortals. Basically, if you hold your 3rd vs max roach pushes you can practically do an immediate +3 colossi counter push when you max out and end the game 9 times out of 10 and not have to worry about your 4th, teching to mothership, etc at all.
-More stable as a blink stalker/sentry backbone is safe vs everything he can throw at you, with no real weakness to mutas. IMO double muta is incredibly vulnerable to a 3-base straight tech to muta (or infestor) build if he does not force roaches. Zerg does not need roaches to deflect 4 zealots. Like I said I open with gate-nexus so I get my core up a lot faster than you and have to decide my tech usually around the time I'm pushing out with my zealots (~6:30), so I have to make this decision somewhat blind as I won't have hallucination or obs out yet.
-You have more map presence earlier in the game, for example you have the option to do a really strong +2 blink stalker/sentry push at around 10:30-ish. This is VERY important so the zerg cannot be tech greedy and tech straight to broodlords. I believe if fast 3rd builds ever become popular in PvZ zergs will try to fast tech to broodlords so you must be able to punish them if you suspect they are being tech greedy.
And one final point I'd like to make is that I do believe a fast 3rd is holdable with good control and positioning, however it is most definitely not the easiest way to play PvZ, or to put it another way I believe for the vast majority of players a strong 2-base timing will net you far more wins on ladder as it is vastly easier to execute. If all you care about is wins then this is something to consider. If you just like to play macro games all the time and care less about wins, or need to vary your playstyle for some reason (e.g. you play in tournaments) then sure go gangbusters. Personally I mostly only go for fast 3rds if I'm playing somebody repeatedly, such as vs practice partners who is familiar my style so this is one way I can switch it up.
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On April 05 2012 09:59 DontGiveUp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 09:36 kawaiiryuko wrote:In Stephano's fast-max roach style, the warren doesn't go down until almost 7m mark. Assuming that Toss has 5 +1 Zealots @ 7 min, I would imagine that you could probably snipe the third (and maybe a queen if one has been transferred over) - roaches wouldn't be able to pop until 8:22 at the earliest (assuming the 7min roach warren). With positioning between minerals, zealots can hold off almost infinity speedlings. Yeah, but there`s no divine law binding the Zerg to build the Roach Warren at 7min. He can scout what`s up early enough and react by placing it earlier. The main concern about the build seems to be the delayed tech (saving the zealots or not is not that relevant in dealing with the roach spam follow-up). I am willing to do some yabot runs to see what is the impact on gas overall compared to normal 20-21 double assimilator out of FFE.
There is more to it for zerg than to just throw down an earlier warren. They also have to get their gasses up far earlier because, you know, roaches cost gas. Consider that most 3-hatch no gas openers get their gasses @ 6 mins, which is far too late if you plan to have roaches out to defend 7-ish min zealot pressure. This all adds up to a much slowed down zerg economy. From my experiences you should have more quite a few more probes than drones at this point if you were constantly making probes. Of course zerg can catch up in a hurry if you leave them along, but it definitely slows them done. One of the things I always look at in my replays is their drone count throughout the early game to figure out how effective early game pressure is.
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I don't belive that this is safe in any way, decipite pros using it i belive it is very risky, if the zerg defends good he can easily bust you third.
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Even without defending, many times I've seen Stephano sacrifice his third and just go for the allin knowing the Toss is behind in tech and army. I think this would punish the expo pretty hard.
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This build is not the most solid one but sometimes it does wonders(especialy if he plans to go ling muta) and forces sooo many lings instead of drones.
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On April 15 2012 11:39 Skyro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok I've been experimenting with fast 3rd builds lately (~6:30-7:30ish 3rds). First off IMO there is absolutely no reason, absolutely none, why you would go FFE over this opening (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE) if your goal is to zealot pressure of any kind. With a gate-nexus opening your zealot pressure can hit FASTER with MORE zealots. The economy from both openings is about the same, but with a gate-nexus you have warpgate tech done to reinforce your initial zealot pressure. I've played around with a ton of double gate zealot pressure builds out of FFE and they are just plain horrible compared to out of a gate-nexus opening, it's not even close. My practice partners would easily count the number of zealots I had trucking it across the map and make exactly the right amount of units to stop it and wouldn't miss a beat econ-wise. Not so when you have warpgate tech done. For an example of one way to do zealot pressure out of a gate-nexus opener check out this guide (there are various ways you can do it this is just one variant): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275Second, go twilight -> single robo instead of double robo into twilight. The advantages of twilight: -Faster access to +2 weapons. This is not as insignificant as it sounds because a +3 weapons colossi timing is, IMO, one of the strongest timings a protoss player can exploit in the current 3-hatch mass roach metagame. The timing is meant to punish the broodlord transition, so obviously the faster the better. Also due to the fast +2 weapons (which will be done when a max roach push hits you) it somewhat hedges the need to get a lot of immortals. Basically, if you hold your 3rd vs max roach pushes you can practically do an immediate +3 colossi counter push when you max out and end the game 9 times out of 10 and not have to worry about your 4th, teching to mothership, etc at all. -More stable as a blink stalker/sentry backbone is safe vs everything he can throw at you, with no real weakness to mutas. IMO double muta is incredibly vulnerable to a 3-base straight tech to muta (or infestor) build if he does not force roaches. Zerg does not need roaches to deflect 4 zealots. Like I said I open with gate-nexus so I get my core up a lot faster than you and have to decide my tech usually around the time I'm pushing out with my zealots (~6:30), so I have to make this decision somewhat blind as I won't have hallucination or obs out yet. -You have more map presence earlier in the game, for example you have the option to do a really strong +2 blink stalker/sentry push at around 10:30-ish. This is VERY important so the zerg cannot be tech greedy and tech straight to broodlords. I believe if fast 3rd builds ever become popular in PvZ zergs will try to fast tech to broodlords so you must be able to punish them if you suspect they are being tech greedy. And one final point I'd like to make is that I do believe a fast 3rd is holdable with good control and positioning, however it is most definitely not the easiest way to play PvZ, or to put it another way I believe for the vast majority of players a strong 2-base timing will net you far more wins on ladder as it is vastly easier to execute. If all you care about is wins then this is something to consider. If you just like to play macro games all the time and care less about wins, or need to vary your playstyle for some reason (e.g. you play in tournaments) then sure go gangbusters. Personally I mostly only go for fast 3rds if I'm playing somebody repeatedly, such as vs practice partners who is familiar my style so this is one way I can switch it up.
I am interested seeing a few replays of this build using the YufFE!
OT: this is a interesting build (Plat player here) And seems to be pretty hard for the zerg to counter I am gonna try this for myself and see what happens
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On April 16 2012 05:16 PapiQuAke wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 11:39 Skyro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok I've been experimenting with fast 3rd builds lately (~6:30-7:30ish 3rds). First off IMO there is absolutely no reason, absolutely none, why you would go FFE over this opening (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE) if your goal is to zealot pressure of any kind. With a gate-nexus opening your zealot pressure can hit FASTER with MORE zealots. The economy from both openings is about the same, but with a gate-nexus you have warpgate tech done to reinforce your initial zealot pressure. I've played around with a ton of double gate zealot pressure builds out of FFE and they are just plain horrible compared to out of a gate-nexus opening, it's not even close. My practice partners would easily count the number of zealots I had trucking it across the map and make exactly the right amount of units to stop it and wouldn't miss a beat econ-wise. Not so when you have warpgate tech done. For an example of one way to do zealot pressure out of a gate-nexus opener check out this guide (there are various ways you can do it this is just one variant): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275Second, go twilight -> single robo instead of double robo into twilight. The advantages of twilight: -Faster access to +2 weapons. This is not as insignificant as it sounds because a +3 weapons colossi timing is, IMO, one of the strongest timings a protoss player can exploit in the current 3-hatch mass roach metagame. The timing is meant to punish the broodlord transition, so obviously the faster the better. Also due to the fast +2 weapons (which will be done when a max roach push hits you) it somewhat hedges the need to get a lot of immortals. Basically, if you hold your 3rd vs max roach pushes you can practically do an immediate +3 colossi counter push when you max out and end the game 9 times out of 10 and not have to worry about your 4th, teching to mothership, etc at all. -More stable as a blink stalker/sentry backbone is safe vs everything he can throw at you, with no real weakness to mutas. IMO double muta is incredibly vulnerable to a 3-base straight tech to muta (or infestor) build if he does not force roaches. Zerg does not need roaches to deflect 4 zealots. Like I said I open with gate-nexus so I get my core up a lot faster than you and have to decide my tech usually around the time I'm pushing out with my zealots (~6:30), so I have to make this decision somewhat blind as I won't have hallucination or obs out yet. -You have more map presence earlier in the game, for example you have the option to do a really strong +2 blink stalker/sentry push at around 10:30-ish. This is VERY important so the zerg cannot be tech greedy and tech straight to broodlords. I believe if fast 3rd builds ever become popular in PvZ zergs will try to fast tech to broodlords so you must be able to punish them if you suspect they are being tech greedy. And one final point I'd like to make is that I do believe a fast 3rd is holdable with good control and positioning, however it is most definitely not the easiest way to play PvZ, or to put it another way I believe for the vast majority of players a strong 2-base timing will net you far more wins on ladder as it is vastly easier to execute. If all you care about is wins then this is something to consider. If you just like to play macro games all the time and care less about wins, or need to vary your playstyle for some reason (e.g. you play in tournaments) then sure go gangbusters. Personally I mostly only go for fast 3rds if I'm playing somebody repeatedly, such as vs practice partners who is familiar my style so this is one way I can switch it up. I am interested seeing a few replays of this build using the YufFE! OT: this is a interesting build (Plat player here) And seems to be pretty hard for the zerg to counter I am gonna try this for myself and see what happens
I'm still figuring out the best transitions/follow-ups to a fast 3rd so my replays aren't the best, but you can check out TitaN from the Go4SC2 March Finals http://sc2casts.com/cast8075-LiveZerg-vs-Titan-Best-of-5-Go4SC2-Cup-Finals where he uses the YufFE expand in 3 of the 4 games.
In game 1 he goes stargate into like a 7:30ish third or so.
In game 2 he basically just defends a baneling bust.
Game 4 he does a 6-gate.
As you can see the opening has many possible follow-ups. TitaN seems to play it safe and always go gate-nexus-forge-core, but in all of those games I believe he could've quite easily gone core before forge for a faster warp gate if he so desired, but since none of his builds really utilized any early warp gate pressure it was not needed.
The one game he did FFE on (which is ironically the 1 game he lost) is where he went 15 Nexus, which has its merits of course since it is the most economical opening possible. But IMO there is really no good reason to go forge-nexus when you can go gate-nexus and tech up a lot faster, be it faster WG tech (which I like to do) or faster tech structures like stargate, robo, etc. (which TitaN does in these replays).
If you search for the other games from TitaN he opens with this same opening in all of his PvZs (there is a series with him vs Nerchio and Stephano for instance).
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Hello, I'm necroing this thread because I'm looking for some kind of PvZ 2 base into a possible third build that's more aggressive than a simple FFE into standard play, which seems to be more and more 2 base all-ins (all-in all the time? Where has chivalry gone?). I still want to use... *sigh* ... "standard" builds, but I'm trying to increase my "repertoire", so to speak, in order to grab some free ladder wins, pull better results in bo3+ series in tournaments, as well as be a generally more exciting player (both for myself and viewers).
In my TL and google searches the only build that seems somewhat viable now is this relatively old SaSe build (April 2012 isn't irrevocably old), as well as a very strange Gateway Nexus build on Liquipedia  Gate Nexus YufFE (vs. Zerg). I'd like some input on the possible viability of these builds, maybe not as a core strategy but as a "mixer upper" with a decent chance of success? Normally I'd post VODs but there's plenty of quality information in this thread as a primer to these two builds, and I don't mean to be lazy, but it doesn't seem necessary. Thanks in advance.
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So to make things totally clear, you're moving out on the map with your first 2 zealots, and suddenly you see that Zerg has speed and a shitton of speedlings. A banneling bust is incoming. Time to reinforce your wall at your natural, drop some cannons, and chrono those sentries to be able to hold..
But... wait.. you don't even have a cybercore started !
No sentries = this build is an auto loss against any Zerg that banneling busts you.
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On August 14 2012 21:19 Nyast wrote:
So to make things totally clear, you're moving out on the map with your first 2 zealots, and suddenly you see that Zerg has speed and a shitton of speedlings. A banneling bust is incoming. Time to reinforce your wall at your natural, drop some cannons, and chrono those sentries to be able to hold..
But... wait.. you don't even have a cybercore started !
No sentries = this build is an auto loss against any Zerg that banneling busts you.
The key to everything starcraft is scouting and reacting. If you see that the zerg doesn't have a 3rd and you continue with a fast 3rd build you deserve to lose... that's the point of scouting with a probe and the 1st zealot.
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So kiwikaki's reaaaaaly old build with a fast third behind it, seems risky. Zergs learned how to deal with this back then and if this becomes popular again will probably get smashed once zergs remember how to deal with it. You sac quite a bit of tech compared to a standard +1 4 gate not having warp gate, a robo, your extra gases, and you only have 2 gates. You NEED to damage with this build or else your dangerously behind.
Edit: ling bane all in is a 3 hatch all in or can be, so seeing a 3rd doesnt Always mean safety.You'll see the 3rd but unless you see the gas in main youre dead with your build. The only other tell is if you see a shitton of lings headed to your base and at that point with your build its too late.
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On August 14 2012 23:17 KingLumps wrote:
So kiwikaki's reaaaaaly old build with a fast third behind it, seems risky. Zergs learned how to deal with this back then and if this becomes popular again will probably get smashed once zergs remember how to deal with it. You sac quite a bit of tech compared to a standard +1 4 gate not having warp gate, a robo, your extra gases, and you only have 2 gates. You NEED to damage with this build or else your dangerously behind.
Edit: ling bane all in is a 3 hatch all in or can be, so seeing a 3rd doesnt Always mean safety.You'll see the 3rd but unless you see the gas in main youre dead with your build. The only other tell is if you see a shitton of lings headed to your base and at that point with your build its too late.
Standard +1 4 gate robo doesn't get +1 zealots out for aggression until much later. I haven't looked into it enough to compare exact timings, but there's no way chronoing +1 and producing zealots immediately off gateways will ever be near the time it takes to get warpgate and a robo, even with chronoing warpgate. The only problem I see with the build is the lack of cybercore for a while, which means a heavier reliance on gateway units for longer, as well as a possible vulnerability to baneling busts.
The point here is to have an early +1 zealot timing with minimal vulnerabilities along with a possible 3rd base; standard 4 gate robo is solely a fast 3rd build, not an early pressure build with a possible 3rd. I think the two best options I've seen are the YufFE expand and this SaSe push. Honestly, with the base of the SaSe build I see no reason to get such a fast 3rd, since +2 blink stalker immortal seems well within reach, you might just not have as many immortals for the push. Yes, it's a slight risk doing this +1 chrono zealot timing with a late cyber, but it's for the sake of early pressure, and in my book that's worth it at least as an alternate build to throw out in tournaments.
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United States4883 Posts
I think the issue here is that the standard ZvP strategy these days gets roaches out JUST IN TIME to deal with these sorts of pressures. In most cases, with a 7:00 roach warren will have enough time to get roaches out and save your hatchery. Generally zergs will pull drones, kite with queen, and let the hatchery take a little damage before roaches get out. As long as the zerg player is microing correctly, they shouldn't lose any drones or roaches (they MIGHT lose the queen depending on creep spread). If they're a good zerg, they'll produce some early lings to help delay and buy time for roaches as well.
When the roaches get out, you have successfully delayed the probable maxout push by a minute at the most. However, zerg retains all the roaches they had in defending, which should be able to sweep out any proxy pylons and take towers. By 12:00 (maxout time adjusted for your harass), zerg will be maxed out with roach/ling and can continually ram army supply down your throat. Because you delay warp gate, gas, and other tech, you CANNOT trade well against roach/ling with only ~4 sentries and a few cannons, which means that even if you have the ability to warp in 8 stalkers at a time, you will slowly die because all you have to defend is sentry/stalker and not enough money to afford immortals + upgrades + blink.
In the case of mutaling, the zerg player is hurling a huge muta pack at you around 13:00 with lots of zergling runbys. With the meager amount of sentries and lack of blink stalkers, there's no reason why a muta/ling force can't just pick apart your economy and just kill you.
All in all, the more I've experienced in this matchup, the more I've become convinced that the only ways to take a safe 3rd currently is sentry/immortal, sentry/blink stalkers, or single Stargate into sentry/immortal. Anything that doesn't get you a healthy number of sentries (6-8) with half to full energy by 12:00 is essentially a strategy that will lose to any decent zerg player.
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United States4883 Posts
I keep accidentally posting in here forgetting that this thread is 4 months old.
No one's this stupid anymore.
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Spent a lot of time going over what you said. Thanks for the input, it helped me get a clearer understanding of PvZ and possible weaknesses zergs can exploit. I'm probably still gonna learn the build as a mixup, but you gave me a better idea of what to watch out for and how to adapt it, if possible. Thanks for being so diligent a poster
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On August 17 2012 11:45 Doomball wrote:Spent a lot of time going over what you said. Thanks for the input, it helped me get a clearer understanding of PvZ and possible weaknesses zergs can exploit. I'm probably still gonna learn the build as a mixup, but you gave me a better idea of what to watch out for and how to adapt it, if possible. Thanks for being so diligent a poster
I have a friend who does a similar build, but spine/queen + reactive lings is enough to hold it. Only the stupidest Zerg wouldn't scout it (1 gas, no core which means no anti air!, 2 gateways)
The best answer is to rally 6 lings to protoss' third and deny it, while defending yours with 1 spine, 1 queen, drone micro and reactive lings. It will win many games, but it's cheesy and has a skill cap. John is right about either a robo, twilight, or stargate expand being the only fast third options. Sentry imba! 
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