EPTim not saying its a bad build, it might work very well on ladder, but i dont see it being a solid TvP build because its too easy to abuse it.
[G] TvP Hammer 111 Expand (80% Win Ratio) - Page 5
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
im not saying its a bad build, it might work very well on ladder, but i dont see it being a solid TvP build because its too easy to abuse it. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On April 05 2012 06:14 crocodile wrote: How on earth do you expect to have a fully upgraded Gateway/Templar army by the time this hits? That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. well, i saw now that he moves out on 2 base - in the text he was talking about establishing a 3rd and maxing out at 14 minutes, tahts why i assmued its simply his lategame comp as well. make it 1-1 upgrades and storm/feedback, good enough to easily hold this. HTs simply rip this build, every unit has either tons of energy (feedback) or is low hp (marine/scv) and you dont have ways to stop me from storming and feedbacking. ofc low master protosses are all too "bad" - guess what, thats why they are low master. It is true that this build is very unlikely to work at a high level, since opponents know each other. its a 1 punch strat that can throw ppl off in a boX series probably, not more and not less. | ||
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k!llua
Australia895 Posts
Kinda worried that it might just get smashed the fuck out. | ||
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
Second of all, NOBODY CARES if it doesn't work at a pro level. Hammer did not once claim that this works at a pro level. I don't know when TL decided that the only guides you can post are ones that work at pro level. Believe it or not, some of us play this game for fun and are content not being in GM. This build is fun and can get a lot of free wins at most levels; does anything else about it really matter? Like I said if you want to improve the build that's fine, but don't just go stroking your e-peen by talking about how you are so good you could easily hold this off, because it's pathetic. | ||
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mynameisgreat11
599 Posts
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Greenknight
Iceland6 Posts
On April 05 2012 06:27 crocodile wrote: First of all, one of the vods he posted (and im sure some of the replays) shows this build beating an HT build, as do some of the replays. Second of all, NOBODY CARES if it doesn't work at a pro level. Hammer did not once claim that this works at a pro level. I don't know when TL decided that the only guides you can post are ones that work at pro level. Believe it or not, some of us play this game for fun and are content not being in GM. This build is fun and can get a lot of free wins at most levels; does anything else about it really matter? Like I said if you want to improve the build that's fine, but don't just go stroking your e-peen by talking about how you are so good you could easily hold this off, because it's pathetic. I would like to second this. There´s too much obsession with leagues in this community. It´s nice to see that there are some terrans who are having fun, playing around with mech, i like to try unorthodox builds myself so i can symphatize even though im toss. One question for the OP, wouldn´t void rays be good vs. this? | ||
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edzwoo
United States469 Posts
What I've learned is that this type of composition is very easy to perfectly macro, and if the protoss does not macro very well in response, it becomes an auto win in the 13-15 minute mark. For that reason alone, you can get a ridiculous winrate at levels up to mid masters. The reasons it doesn't work in the late game is because Thors take way too long to rebuild, they're too immobile, and they don't trade highly in your favor vs a good late game protoss composition (which is what you need to happen when you have this type of composition). The variation preferred by the progamers GSL (used 2 or 3 times before) is off two base with 1 reactor rax, 2 fact thor and 2 port banshee. That's the one that killed Huk in the up and downs. | ||
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AnalyZ
France32 Posts
This build is not "Strong", it's freaking Powerfull. (Phoenix HardCounter Banshee. Thor HardCounter Phoenix... so you don't by Phoenix, cuz they'll die fast. Voidray HardCounter Thor and Banshee... but rines HardCounter Voidray. Stalker might be good... but there is a raven that can throw 2PDD.. There, new terran deathball) The only way (Maybe there's anothers) to "Beat" that composition is to mass out only HighTemplar at the 8Minutes mark. 1ht 200nrg can Feedback 4banshee, instantkill. Storm Banshee ONLY if they are stacked. 2Storm on marines or maybe 3, these storm has to be "Perfect" storm, using all the Aoe. I've encountered this build, the guy did 2factory/2staport, rushing the +2Mecha Armor. He pushed out with 8Banshee and 8THor, something like 20marines. I had 3-1-1 upgrade, 10~15chargelot, 5immortal, 3voidrays. He just obliterated my army.. 10marine, 6thor,6banshee left.... | ||
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Dr_Jones
Norway252 Posts
On April 05 2012 06:47 AnalyZ wrote: Voidrays? No, there is marines. This build is not "Strong", it's freaking Powerfull. (Phoenix HardCounter Banshee. Thor HardCounter Phoenix... so you don't by Phoenix, cuz they'll die fast. Voidray HardCounter Thor and Banshee... but rines HardCounter Voidray. Stalker might be good... but there is a raven that can throw 2PDD.. There, new terran deathball) The only way (Maybe there's anothers) to "Beat" that composition is to mass out only HighTemplar at the 8Minutes mark. 1ht 200nrg can Feedback 4banshee, instantkill. Storm Banshee ONLY if they are stacked. 2Storm on marines or maybe 3, these storm has to be "Perfect" storm, using all the Aoe. I've encountered this build, the guy did 2factory/2staport, rushing the +2Mecha Armor. He pushed out with 8Banshee and 8THor, something like 20marines. I had 3-1-1 upgrade, 10~15chargelot, 5immortal, 3voidrays. He just obliterated my army.. 10marine, 6thor,6banshee left.... Dude... splash damage... n'est-ce pas? | ||
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edzwoo
United States469 Posts
On April 05 2012 06:47 AnalyZ wrote: Voidrays? No, there is marines. This build is not "Strong", it's freaking Powerfull. (Phoenix HardCounter Banshee. Thor HardCounter Phoenix... so you don't by Phoenix, cuz they'll die fast. Voidray HardCounter Thor and Banshee... but rines HardCounter Voidray. Stalker might be good... but there is a raven that can throw 2PDD.. There, new terran deathball) The only way (Maybe there's anothers) to "Beat" that composition is to mass out only HighTemplar at the 8Minutes mark. 1ht 200nrg can Feedback 4banshee, instantkill. Storm Banshee ONLY if they are stacked. 2Storm on marines or maybe 3, these storm has to be "Perfect" storm, using all the Aoe. I've encountered this build, the guy did 2factory/2staport, rushing the +2Mecha Armor. He pushed out with 8Banshee and 8THor, something like 20marines. I had 3-1-1 upgrade, 10~15chargelot, 5immortal, 3voidrays. He just obliterated my army.. 10marine, 6thor,6banshee left.... I believe a way to counter this build is to build a fast third nexus if they can scout the armory, in the same way you counter a 1-1-1 with a fast expo. If you build the third nexus at a far away remote location, that is actually the best as T can't pressure it without giving protoss too much time to prepare (since thors are slow). I haven't tried the 2 port banshee variation much (it's probably stronger), but I've actually been the same variation this guide states for a while now. You can counter it with heavy colossus. I would win a lot of matches because my opponent would put heavy emphasis on immortals, but that results in an auto loss if terran puts his marines in the front. | ||
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Vanchen
55 Posts
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edzwoo
United States469 Posts
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pimsc2
France73 Posts
On April 05 2012 06:37 Greenknight wrote: One question for the OP, wouldn´t void rays be good vs. this? I'm not the OP but I have a hundred games with this build. Void rays alone are not a danger because of the marine count + thor, however 3 gates + proxy void ray can be difficult to hold if they hit very early. You can't really split your small army at 7:00 and if the protoss attacks in the back with the void ray and hit the front with 3 gates, it can end really fast. But this is easily scoutable (2 gaz, only 2 or 3 gates, no expand by 6-7 min > cheesy agression like DT or Void rays). | ||
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edzwoo
United States469 Posts
On April 05 2012 07:07 Vanchen wrote: Great to see this build finally on TL instead of the b.net forums. While initially negative, I think that it still works In a boX series like how jjakji uses it almost exclusively on daybreak. Some things to note (although said before), the expo is much later than it has to be, it's probably much better to 1 rax FE in base into double gas into Thor, then expand. While it is a very powerful composition, it is pretty much an all in for now because the reenforcemnt rate is so slow and takig additional bases espicially vs. warpprisms and proxy pylons would be hard. The strongest part of the build IMO is the banshee 'timing' that can snipe key tech or a ton of probes. I would agree with the expo point. I would do this with a 1rax FE so I can push out earlier, since it doesn't compromise this type of build. If you stay on one base, it would make more sense to me to rush cloaked banshee since you can do eco damage early on, and potentially force protoss into cutting probes since he'll be nervous about the 1-1-1. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
concisely it is a weak style. Here is my reasoning: 1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?" 2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well. 3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass 4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not. This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example) | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style: concisely it is a weak style. Here is my reasoning: 1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?" 2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well. 3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass 4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not. This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example) It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better. Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 05 2012 07:55 crocodile wrote: It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better. Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums. Seriously? You are a very annoying poster. First, you call people names for no reason. And you fight to the death to defend other peoples builds when people come to refute things. If anyone needs to go back to the bnet forums, it's you. You're childish. It's probably why you got a temp ban a while ago. So, maybe back off, and let people express their opinions before shooting them down and calling names. It's a 'STRATEGY DISCUSSION' meaning people are going to discuss the positives and the negatives of the presented build. So again, not even your thread, and you're doing nothing to help the thread by being a prick. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
Sitting back and waiting for a maxed army with this composition is just asking to be countered. I don`t think hiding the Banshees for a surprise 14min attack to be a viable strat at all against a half-decent opponent. I mean, even if he doesn`t directly scout the banshees or the starports, he will know that something is up if he is only seeing ravens and thors as gas units from two bases at 10min, right? The build should incorporate a 1rax-FE opening or early harass followed by a timing push... do something to throw off the Protoss, like Jjakji always does. Btw the guide should at least mention some of his games, it`s a great resource for this style. | ||
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