[G] TvP Hammer 111 Expand (80% Win Ratio) - Page 8

On April 06 2012 07:21 _Ripndip_ wrote:
You can not possibly put a percentage win/loss ratio on a certain build order....I do use this build also and im top 25 GM terran but I don't feel it has an 80% win ratio?

On April 05 2012 17:20 JimCozad wrote:
I've been using the Jjaki version of this build for a couple of days and i must say it is very effective. Low masters on EU for reference.

On April 06 2012 13:09 furerkip wrote:
Could you post a game of this working on a map with a 3rd that's relatively simple to defend? Even if the map is small, that's fine, I just noticed every replay you've shown to us has been of a relatively hard to defend 3rd.

Also, a game of the Protoss doing a sort of all in, like 6 gate.

The maps these were posted on were fairly unfavorable for a macro style, but the protoss you were facing did some funky responses, even though they saw the heavy tech on 2 bases.

On April 06 2012 13:28 HammerSC2 wrote:

Are you thinking Antiga or Entombed? Also just curious as to why...

On April 06 2012 13:36 furerkip wrote:


Antiga is fine. I'm just wondering if the build only works on certain maps that make the 3rd hard to defend, or if that's just a random property of the games you've shown us.

On April 06 2012 13:09 furerkip wrote:
Could you post a game of this working on a map with a 3rd that's relatively simple to defend? Even if the map is small, that's fine, I just noticed every replay you've shown to us has been of a relatively hard to defend 3rd.

Also, a game of the Protoss doing a sort of all in, like 6 gate.

The maps these were posted on were fairly unfavorable for a macro style, but the protoss you were facing did some funky responses, even though they saw the heavy tech on 2 bases.

EDIT: Upon further inspection, the Protoss engages at odd angles. For example, they have this need to engaged your army, even though they know you are right outside their walls. These ad engagements on their part and good ones on yours are generally why you won (I feel). Why not just wait for Colossi, while defending the base with Blink stalkers?

I think, as many dissenters of this play do, that this 1-1-1 is wrong. It hits at a weirder timing that I think most Protoss are used to compared to the standard bio balls, but it is played well by you ^_^, even if only due to familiarity. I wouldn't go so far as to say that NA masters is simply weak, but the creativity involved in the build which makes it function fairly well, is good enough to fuck with their heads. I would, however, go so far as to say that the build won't be good on Antiga Shipyard, TDA, Korhal Compound LE, and Cloud Kingdom.

TL;DR - I think the wins have more to do with the fact that Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base, however, the games you usually play from the replays, show them never expanding off 2 base economy, just because they have no idea if it is safe or not because of their inexperience with the build. In general, you know how to play mech relatively well, but I feel like a super economic build like 1 gate FE into 3 Nexus can hold this off easily because of the timing of the push.

If you could post these replays of a protoss doing this to you while you do your build:

1) Super greedy build
2) All in at 9 minutes (I think that's just when the first thor is produced)

And a replay of with a different map like Cloud Kingdom, rather than Shak Plat (435234523452) and Shattered Temple (35235435), then I'll withdraw my complaints about this build. But, the protoss has to be masters', so you should ask one of your practice partners to help you, or hell, ask anyone on this thread that's masters.

I think, as many dissenters of this play do, that this 1-1-1 is wrong. It hits at a weirder timing that I think most Protoss are used to compared to the standard bio balls, but it is played well by you ^_^, even if only due to familiarity. I wouldn't go so far as to say that NA masters is simply weak, but the creativity involved in the build which makes it function fairly well, is good enough to fuck with their heads. I would, however, go so far as to say that the build won't be good on Antiga Shipyard, TDA, Korhal Compound LE, and Cloud Kingdom.

TL;DR - I think the wins have more to do with the fact that Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base, however, the games you usually play from the replays, show them never expanding off 2 base economy, just because they have no idea if it is safe or not because of their inexperience with the build. In general, you know how to play mech relatively well, but I feel like a super economic build like 1 gate FE into 3 Nexus can hold this off easily because of the timing of the push.

On April 06 2012 15:51 HammerSC2 wrote:

The build does fine on Antiga, Korhal and Cloud Kingdom. I find TDA is a little toughter due to the exposed natural and back cliffs, but I have it vetoed so I haven't played it for sometime.

In reference to that "Protoss can destroy this usually if they get 3 base" is far from accurate. I win many games against protoss that get an early third, or at least earlier than mine.

Not sure what to tell ya, if it goes late game I win most of em It's the early 1 base aggression that is sometimes hard to deal with... Cheers.

On April 06 2012 23:11 kcdc wrote:
I hate facing these builds. In a vacuum, they're actually quite weak because they're so slow to expand and the eventual composition gets rocked by chargelot/archon/templar/immortal, but because they look like 111 all-in, P is forced to cut probes at 35-38 and either stop teching or tech colossi. So because 111 all-in is so strong and so common, against this build, P will usually sacrifice the economy lead that he should have due to T's late expansion, and P will either greatly delay tech or research the wrong tech.

The end result is that by nestling itself into a "fake 111 all-in" niche in the metagame, this build, which would be weak without the cover of 111 all-in, becomes very strong. 80% win rate isn't real tho. That's got a lot to do with people not knowing how to play against it.

On April 07 2012 00:43 Naccer wrote:
Is this build not all-in ish after your first push? U dont have any upgrades for your marine's except cshields/Stim No armory upgrades or marine upgrades.

How can u transition out of it ?

On April 07 2012 01:58 Naccer wrote:
I think this build would fit me very well with some adjustments ( Taking faster 4th and upgrading Thors/marine's just a slight bit ) because I thinks its a bit to fragile without any upgrades so late in the game like u do.

Also why do u have 2 racks for so long when u can have a few more, ( U bank a lot of minerals ) I guess it because its hard to keep everything rolling

On April 07 2012 01:35 HammerSC2 wrote:

That's a good question. It's not all-innish as I make sure I have a 3rd prior to the timing engagement, as well as more production. It's more of a "production" based build, as opposed to an upgrade build if that makes sense. I almost always take out 15-25 of the opponents worker line, and then try to remax quicker, harass with banshee to "pin" opponent while remaxing. Here are some replays of games that go longer after timing engagement:

http://drop.sc/154386
http://drop.sc/154390
http://drop.sc/154385

On April 07 2012 03:40 ArtemisSC wrote:


You don't understand what he's saying. Marine Thor Banshee is very powerful in the midgame (which is when you push), but lategame, verses a 3-3 Protoss army, you will get absolutely crushed so yes, it is most definitely all-in and if they crush your first push, you simply cannot produce quickly enough to be able to put pressure back on your opponent (and I really hope you don't actually think mech armies can be reproduced quickly).

I'll spell it out a different way. You're putting ALLL of your resources into ARMY, and none into Tech (hello upgrades), such that you have a stronger army RIGHT now to kill your opponent NOW, because you don't have a followup plan if your first push fails.

I don't like this build that much because it completely relies on your opponent making mistakes or reacting poorly to your build (and not to mention it's less economical than 1rax fe), instead of you playing well. The reason why what jjakji did worked so well was because he rushed cloaked banshee, and pinned 6 stalkers and 2 observers to mana's base (and he also had a 50 to 1000ish lost advantage, which was huge). Your build does none of those things. Not to mention, relying on killing 15-25 probes every game verses protoss is just absurd - and again, they're the ones making the mistake of scouting poorly and not reacting AT all to what you're doing.

Watching these games:
Game 1: He's floating 4000 resources (and to the readers, no, he is not even close to being maxed 200/200), and he still manages to clean up your push (despite attacking down his ramp on shakuras plateau into a terrible concave, with the stalkers blocking all of the chargelots). He ended up losing because he didn't know that chargelots suck when you engage through a chokepoint. I mean, you're playing against people who can't even spend their money. I really don't need to watch the rest of these games to understand why you have such a high win percentage against protoss.

So, how do you improve this build? Easy:

1. Rush cloaked banshees first to pin units and observers back to their base.
2. Expand at a decent timing, instead of somewhere in the middle where it doesn't make sense.
3. GET UPGRADES. I mean, not getting upgrades is such a stupid idea when you plan on going up to 3-4 bases.
4. Test it verses competent opponents. (Refer to game 1).