On April 05 2012 05:14 iAmJeffReY wrote: Open demuslim TvZ style, it'll open smoother, and let you FE safely with a gas, and look like gasless FE. 12 rax 16 gas 22-23 CC at natural 24 factory 25 reactor.
Looks like gasless FE, and gives you 4 marines + bunker + a factory still fast, with a more economic FE where you don't cut marines or SCVs.
Thanks man, I will take a look at that
I do a very similar build, expect I go banshee marine tank off 2 base. 4-6rax-1fac-2 port hit at like 12 min with ~110 supply.
It loses to 3 gate VR, 3 gate robo all in, and fake 1 gate FE into 4 gate faggotry. But, I think you should get a cloakshee out before you thor, because with a cloakshee you can pressure and force more stalkers (bad against thors obviously), more OBs, and force probes to be pulled/lost.
Thor puts you in a defensive posture, and the first thor they see means immortals are coming, with possibility of collsai (which I feel isn't the answer). If anything, chargelot/ht/archon from a double forge should do the trick, as the archons can clean up the banshees with ease if they clump at all. Just mass FB, then form archons and hope the chargelots get good surface area.
I feel giving protoss time to scout and react to any 1-2 base all in is a bad idea. Letting them see at like minute 7-8 that you have a thor, is obvious your going thor/marine/_______. And delaying the push gives them chances to get things out to defend it better/change their build up to react more accordingly.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Why are you being so defensive for him? The guy you quoted was essentially right on every mark that he placed. The build is a timing push, BUT, the guide deceives us, since it says it's an expansion build (expo usually means macro oriented build), but it doesn't actually function like a macro build (which you clearly acknowledge).
Also, the win rate is absolutely misleading about the strength of the build, since I could post a build that works 100 per cent of the time in bronze league but that works no place else, and thus have a "stronger" build than his; the title should be changed completely.
The person you are attacking's point are coherent and understandable and also true.
Also, don't you think viability and how good a build is are directly related? What you said is really kind of retarded about that :\.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
I'm sorry, but where in your post do you discuss this build and leave constructive feedback? For every point I made, i gave logic behind it and analyzed it from a hypothetical Protoss player's point of view. I suggested opening banshees instead, i suggested a weakness in the lategame due to mixing tech paths (perhaps circumented by eventually replacing marines with banshees), and then held the build to the "test" of the matchup -- can it survive rushes of the other player? Every build does this. Even rush builds. Look at SpecialistSC/Allinking's guide to the 4 thor + banshee timing attack: guess what? he discusses what the ZERG player can be aggressive with, and how to respond without sacrificing the timing
For a while before the nerf, most every XvP build was sure to be vetted: "will i survive a 4gate with this build?"
Are we just to suppose our opponents will never become aggressive? Are we just supposed to assume we kill him with the attack every time? I gave specific examples of builds that will give this build trouble. if you read further down on the strategy forum, you will see a guide to the protoss 4gate warp prism which has 8 zealots in your mineral line IIRC as well as 2 stalkers and a zealot bashing down your front door very very early. you will likely also find an aggressive PvX blink build guide on liquidpedia -- look at the timings of these builds versus the timings of when the thors come out and you will start to notice some very big holes in the opening that can be abused by a player who gets aggressive and doesn't sit in his base and wait for you to surprise him with whatever you've been cooking in the Terran kitchen
All with good intentions, I'm not a dick i'm just being realistic here
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Seriously? You are a very annoying poster. First, you call people names for no reason. And you fight to the death to defend other peoples builds when people come to refute things. If anyone needs to go back to the bnet forums, it's you. You're childish. It's probably why you got a temp ban a while ago.
So, maybe back off, and let people express their opinions before shooting them down and calling names. It's a 'STRATEGY DISCUSSION' meaning people are going to discuss the positives and the negatives of the presented build.
So again, not even your thread, and you're doing nothing to help the thread by being a prick.
I call people names who are doing something to merit me calling them a name. And for someone who seems offended by name-calling, you seem to be awfully quick to call me names: annoying, childish, prick. It's almost like you're some kind of hypocrite!
As for refuting things, what did they refute? The people who come here to explain why the build is not viable; what are they refuting? Hammer never claimed it was viable. He never said pros should use it. There was nothing being refuted because they're refuting a claim that was never made.
And are you really going to criticize me for defending other people's guides when dumbasses like you make useless, baseless arguments that don't contribute to the discussion?
Of course I'll fight to defend a build that I think is good when people say stuff that makes no sense and call the build bad. That's me expressing MY opinion. Ah, hypocrisy again! You say I can't express my opinion while you defend the opinions of others.
It's so obvious that you're only saying this to me because you disagree with me, because you're criticizing me for doing all the things you do yourself.
-point out the holes in the build (timings and scoutable triggers for Protoss) -how to scout a Protoss is aiming for one of these -how to possibly close the hole in time (reaktive play -yes I think Terran can do that too) -add replays executing (as well as failing) this build
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
Dude, youre the ONLY troll here.
Pot calling the kettle black, my troll friend.
What have you contributed to this? Hmmm? Other people have poked holes in it with theorycraft, as is expected with a strategy topic. I even suggested a smoother opening that transitions into the same build with a better econ, that is safer and could LOOK like a build that would make a protoss FE.
All your doing is showing your true age. If anyone disagrees, or says anything about what could counter this build, you jump all over them with...well... nothing. You have no argument. Nothing but misguided anger.
Again, no wonder you got/get temp banned often. Everytime you post, as I just checked, you contribute nothing to the discussion other than, well, 12 year old rage. It's sad, it really is. Now, how about you add to the discussion, or 'go back the to bnet forums'? ...friend =)
Here! Read through your posts. Not a single one doing anything but attacking people. Nothing about the build. Nothing about games. Nothing about anything related to strategy. Good job!!
On April 05 2012 02:11 crocodile wrote: Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level.
Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
On April 05 2012 02:51 crocodile wrote: I agree. But who's talking about balance? I don't remember a part of the guide that said 'guys all the pros should start doing this and it's the best strategy ever.' It's just Hammer sharing a guide for a build that works.
The people explaining why it won't work at a higher level who ARE NOT helping to improve the build are really just trying to boost their egos. It's actually pathetic. If you don't think the build is viable, great! Keep it to yourself though. If you think the build has flaws and can be improved, EXPLAIN WHERE IT CAN BE IMPROVED. Don't just go 'your opponent was bad, this build is stupid you noob.'
On April 05 2012 05:01 crocodile wrote: That's a different build. Stop trolling please. You're pretty pathetic.
On April 05 2012 06:14 crocodile wrote: How on earth do you expect to have a fully upgraded Gateway/Templar army by the time this hits? That is the silliest thing I have ever heard.
On April 05 2012 06:27 crocodile wrote: First of all, one of the vods he posted (and im sure some of the replays) shows this build beating an HT build, as do some of the replays.
Second of all, NOBODY CARES if it doesn't work at a pro level. Hammer did not once claim that this works at a pro level. I don't know when TL decided that the only guides you can post are ones that work at pro level.
Believe it or not, some of us play this game for fun and are content not being in GM. This build is fun and can get a lot of free wins at most levels; does anything else about it really matter? Like I said if you want to improve the build that's fine, but don't just go stroking your e-peen by talking about how you are so good you could easily hold this off, because it's pathetic.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
On April 05 2012 07:40 c0sm0naut wrote: I have discussed this build before on Bnet but would like to share my opinion with the TL community on this style:
concisely it is a weak style.
Here is my reasoning:
1. Any "masters league" protoss (and by this i mean 750ish pts and up. considering how masters is supposed to be the top 2% and is now like 5%) would immediately notice a lack of marauders and ask themselve the fundamental scouting question "where is the gas going?"
2. You are extremely vulnerable if not dead in the water against a high level execution of any warp prism rush or blink rush. They will not sit there losing units while you repair the thor, they will destroy everything else you ever made in your base while your Slor tries to chase them down unsuccessfully. This also sucks because if you rely on auto repair to hold rushes if he is able to disrupt your mining (ie, dropping 3 zealots in your mineral line while busting the front with immortals, you can potentially run out of money, not counting the mining you lose for having scvs pulled to repair as well.
3. Early raven is essentially meaningless: why? DT's? if you drop 2 turrets, you are safe from DT's. What is the function of the raven? To deny observers? If you are buying a raven that early, guess what: Protoss knows that you are trying to deny scouting and mass starports or thors. That's just what terran does when they go an early thor and an early raven. People have been doing 1 thor + 1 raven into mass marines + banshees or mass banshee + thor for a long time. It isn't really a style that can keep up with a standard macro style without that early gas going directly into cloaked banshee harass
4. Lack of upgrading path: you are massing banshees, thors and marines, all which have separate upgrade paths and despite how well these units synergize with each other, it is meaningless if he cuts probes, crushes your all in because likely he: has a way better infrastructure (it seems you only have a few buildings after taking a third becuase you dump ALL of your resources into your timing, most terrans can have like 15 barracks at the 14 min mark if they are not constantly trading units), way better upgrades as well as probably an overall better game plan. If you plan on an all in, did you take the time to destroy your rocks at the gold? Did you scout the map for proxy pylons? Probably not.
This build wins mostly with the element of suprise and the protoss stalker's inability to deal with the banshee until tier 3, and i don't think those are the core elements of a successful macro style that deserves a [G] next to it... It would be more appropriate to 1: not include a win %, 2. change the name to [G] Hammer Timing Attack (TvP) or something more accurate because putting "expand" in the title implies that it's something like the more developed guides here (like kcdc's pvt guide as an example)
It's not a macro build guide, it is a timing attack. It opens with Hammer's VERSION of the 1/1/1 expand. The points you've made are therefore invalid. There have been plenty of idiots like you in this thread who showed up solely to explain why they think the build should not work at a high level. Nobody wants to hear from those people, because nobody ever claimed this build did not have counters or that there was no way Protoss could stop it. Hammer never asked if this build was not viable or how Protoss could stop it, he asked for ways to make it better.
Your post might, MIGHT have been appropriate if you were the first person to say what you're saying. But you're not, which means you clearly haven't been reading the discussion either. So please, for the sake of everyone in the thread, go back to the bnet forums.
Seriously? You are a very annoying poster. First, you call people names for no reason. And you fight to the death to defend other peoples builds when people come to refute things. If anyone needs to go back to the bnet forums, it's you. You're childish. It's probably why you got a temp ban a while ago.
So, maybe back off, and let people express their opinions before shooting them down and calling names. It's a 'STRATEGY DISCUSSION' meaning people are going to discuss the positives and the negatives of the presented build.
So again, not even your thread, and you're doing nothing to help the thread by being a prick.
I call people names who are doing something to merit me calling them a name. And for someone who seems offended by name-calling, you seem to be awfully quick to call me names: annoying, childish, prick. It's almost like you're some kind of hypocrite!
As for refuting things, what did they refute? The people who come here to explain why the build is not viable; what are they refuting? Hammer never claimed it was viable. He never said pros should use it. There was nothing being refuted because they're refuting a claim that was never made.
And are you really going to criticize me for defending other people's guides when dumbasses like you make useless, baseless arguments that don't contribute to the discussion?
Of course I'll fight to defend a build that I think is good when people say stuff that makes no sense and call the build bad. That's me expressing MY opinion. Ah, hypocrisy again! You say I can't express my opinion while you defend the opinions of others.
It's so obvious that you're only saying this to me because you disagree with me, because you're criticizing me for doing all the things you do yourself.
Jjakji used a build like this to take a game off MaNa in the Iron Squid tournament. I don't think the people calling it non-viable know what they're talking about...
They don't. I'm done with this thread because the trolls have taken over.
Dude, youre the ONLY troll here.
Pot calling the kettle black, my troll friend.
Oh thanks! Here's another. The what... 7th post? Still nothing about this build.. =)
On April 05 2012 09:00 crocodile wrote: I've been temp banned once, man, get the fuck off your high horse. If you can't handle curse words, get off the internet.
I also find it fascinating that you fail to address any points I make, ever. You just ignore them and call me a little kid. Pretty retarded logic there. Are you really gonna use the 'you're probably 12' argument? Classic, but pretty sad in all honesty. I've contributed plenty to plenty of threads, I can't help it if the tide of stupid people like you unleash is too painful to witness without saying anything.
And now that you've hijacked this thread talking about me, who's the one failing to contribute? Don't you think it'd be better for you to bitch like a little girl at me in PMs instead of taking up the whole discussion in a thread where people might actually want to have a productive discussion? Seriously, you've got some issues man. Wow, you really dug through the entire thread to find all my posts? Seriously, you've got some issues man. Gotta give you props for commitment though <3
=) Yea it took all of 2 minutes to prove you do nothing but attack people and derail threads. You just aren't long for TL friend.
For my man croc again!
And by the way, the opener you suggested is absolutely awful. That opener will die to literally any 1 base play by Protoss. Why are you trying to set people up to lose? There's a reason that build is for TvZ.
Yes, that's why it's called SCOUTING. If they 1 base, you get siege tanks + siege instead of cloakshee first. =) There's a reason I play top masters, and you don't.
For OP--
Here's the opening I was talking about. http://drop.sc/153957 played it today against a 1.2k masters toss. Ignore the follow up, and make it suit you how you like, but here ya go.
I've been temp banned once, man, get the fuck off your high horse. If you can't handle curse words, get off the internet.
I also find it fascinating that you fail to address any points I make, ever. You just ignore them and call me a little kid. Pretty retarded logic there. Are you really gonna use the 'you're probably 12' argument? Classic, but pretty sad in all honesty. I've contributed plenty to plenty of threads, I can't help it if the tide of stupid people like you unleash is too painful to witness without saying anything.
And now that you've hijacked this thread talking about me, who's the one failing to contribute? Don't you think it'd be better for you to bitch like a little girl at me in PMs instead of taking up the whole discussion in a thread where people might actually want to have a productive discussion?
And by the way, the opener you suggested is absolutely awful. That opener will die to literally any 1 base play by Protoss. Why are you trying to set people up to lose? There's a reason that build is for TvZ.
Wow, you really dug through the entire thread to find all my posts? Seriously, you've got some issues man. Gotta give you props for commitment though <3
On April 05 2012 09:00 crocodile wrote: I've been temp banned once, man, get the fuck off your high horse. If you can't handle curse words, get off the internet.
I also find it fascinating that you fail to address any points I make, ever. You just ignore them and call me a little kid. Pretty retarded logic there. Are you really gonna use the 'you're probably 12' argument? Classic, but pretty sad in all honesty. I've contributed plenty to plenty of threads, I can't help it if the tide of stupid people like you unleash is too painful to witness without saying anything.
And now that you've hijacked this thread talking about me, who's the one failing to contribute? Don't you think it'd be better for you to bitch like a little girl at me in PMs instead of taking up the whole discussion in a thread where people might actually want to have a productive discussion?
And by the way, the opener you suggested is absolutely awful. That opener will die to literally any 1 base play by Protoss. Why are you trying to set people up to lose? There's a reason that build is for TvZ.
Wow, you really dug through the entire thread to find all my posts? Seriously, you've got some issues man. Gotta give you props for commitment though <3
You really aren't contributing very effectively to this thread since most of your posts have been just complaints about other people. When there are issues with the build they need to be addressed and if they are brought up with vaild claims supporting them, then you should address the critcisms instead of just saying "don't complain."
I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish, but for the most part you just seem to be defending the build without a lot of backing for your claim.
In response to Plexa, I want to say that if you are committing to heavy air play it would make more sense to just go for sky Terran style and rely on that instead of investing the gas into thors and to instead supplement your army with ghosts.
open with a techlab barracks, fake some marauder/reaper pressure while take second gas, make reactor on rax and build SP on techlab. easier to get the toss confused and still you can get your expo and your tech what you need.
Haha it has 111 replies. Now I ruined it jokes aside, this looks like a decent way to play. Since you would have to split upgrades, do you just transition to straight mech? I don't really see it working that well aside from a 2 base all-in. That's the problem with biomech in my opinion. Ghost mech on the other hand.....
On April 05 2012 10:27 DoctorFunk wrote: Haha it has 111 replies. Now I ruined it jokes aside, this looks like a decent way to play. Since you would have to split upgrades, do you just transition to straight mech? I don't really see it working that well aside from a 2 base all-in. That's the problem with biomech in my opinion. Ghost mech on the other hand.....
It feels like that, but I think, if the build had a 3CC opening, it would be better? With just 2 bases, you don't get the gas income necessary to keep building thors and banshees constantly and you definitely don't have the SCV amount to start such a huge tech play at the early game and still pump marines. Think about it, once you get 3 bases really quickly, you could use this build to large amount of merit, because upgrades are able to be used in the build once it starts pumping that gas from 3 bases.
So, from what I think (go ahead and point me wrong at any turn)...
The build has to start off economic. It's a necessity to start economic because the composition we want is mech play, and not only that, but also some of the more expensive mech units like thors, ravens, and banshees. Realistically, the units for that cannot be pumped from 2 base without a fast expand build, which this one isn't, so we have to give the 1-1-1 aspect of this build up because it puts us behind on all accounts.
So, what we need, is large amount of marines and bunkers to protect us from early aggression and Protoss attacks; this is solved through constantly scouting the map for proxy pylons with like the first 4 marines, and avoiding battles all together (if we see any clues of an all in, we return and get more bunkers and marines). If we keep scouting with the 4 marines, we can go ahead and decipher if it is safe for a fast triple OC so we can get our economy rolling. Obviously, on big maps like TDA we absolutely avoid using this build, but on small maps where we have a general sense of where proxy pylons are going to be, we can run our marines to there and around.
Next thing is just surviving till the 12 minute mark, so we can get the thors and banshees out to save us. I guess it would be relatively smart to push the first banshee you have into attacking their probe line; then the next ones will be at home safely, and you'll return your original banshee home once you have the clear on having a thor (you can defend your base relatively well now, since if they are rushing Colossi you can just start producing vikings because we have the gas to produce vikings and you should be able to see Colossi since your banshee had the other role of scouting as well as pressuring).
After that, I dunno, I can't think much farther ahead than that lol. That's kinda my suggestion to this build, so it becomes a little more macro oriented.
I think that the composition is very good it is different and can be very effective if played the right way. That said I think that your build is very unrefined.
First off you are very vulnerable to early cheese how would you deal with 3 gate void raid when you only have 3-5 marines and maybe a thor? What about a 3 gate immortal bust or a 4 gate warp prism? If you choose to go for gas before a cc you must must get a reactor on the barracks and maybe a starport before the cc or you will be very vulnerable to immortal bust, voidray all in, and warp prism all ins. With the reactor you get enough marines to be able to hold these or at least enough to fill a 2-3 bunkers.
The second big problem I have with the style that you play is the lack of upgrades. Thors with armor upgrades are much more efficient. While you might not think you need them since you usually kill the toss early what happens when they do kill your army? You will be severely behind in upgrades and your army will be much much weaker. You do not need to upgrade all air, ground, and mech but upgrading your thors or banshees(depending on which one you favor more) will do wonders.
Third you need ghosts. You NEED ghost. The replay that you provided with a protoss that went for high templar was sketchy. They horribly miscontrolled their high templar and did not even use feedback. The ghost allow you to nullify high templar and make your army much safer. Not to mention that they can get rid of immortals hardened shields which allow your army to kill them faster.
The fourth and biggest problem is that you do not scout very much. This style need to scout consistently in order to be safer and allow you to move on into the mid game comfortable. While the replays that you show are not effected by this it is something that is hugely important. You need to know when you need to build vikings, when to start getting a lot of ghosts, or when you are able to push and punish the protoss.
Could you post more recent replays. The ones that you provided are 50 or so days old; a lot can change in this time period. How do master tosses deal with this style in say march or april. Have you updated it at all since then? In addition you should also include replays of you loosing with this style. No style is unbeatable and it would be nice to see where this falls short or what makes you lose that could be improved. For example how do you deal with a six gate all in, blink all in, how do you deal with greedy tosses that take a fast 3rd, what about a two forge style toss, or a toss that can control their ht properly to storm AND feedback your army. What about the late game do you transition into something else? Do you keep going or what do you do.
A similar build to this that is much more refined is the one featured on day[9]'s daily found here. This lets you pressure a little kill some probes and maybe even outright kill them with cloak banshee if the toss is too greedy. The ordering allows you to quickly get the gas income to produce thors banshees and marines as well. The most important part however is that it incorporates upgrades this makes you a lot stronger in the mid game makes it easier to hold all ins, and set you enter the late game later on with good upgrades instead of having 0-0 everything. You can continue to keep the composition you have instead on transitioning into full on mech or choose to keep following the style discussed in day[9]'s daily.
I personally do this style but prefer to go for a 1 rax fe into cloak banshees eventually transitioning into thor marine banshee. This allows me to get up a good economy without relying on doing damage to get an even economy and having a factory that is able to produce tank if need be it allows me to be safe against potential all ins. The third gas at my natural also allows me to start upgrades much faster.
MaNa got crushed with the same army composition, the same push, with a different BO :
Look at how STRONG the push is, how one-sided the engagement is, how wrong MaNa's army is.
So THIS IS viable. If even an international pro gamer like Mana didn't scout this and chose the wrong army comp, think about how effective it is on ladder… Now Hammer build can be refined, but the general idea is here and this push is working even at pro level.
But continue to theorycraft blindly during hours "it's not viable blabla too weak blabla"
Look at how STRONG the push is, how one-sided the engagement is, how wrong MaNa's army is.
So THIS IS viable. If even an international pro gamer like Mana didn't scout this and chose the wrong army comp, think about how effective it is on ladder… Now Hammer build can be refined, but the general idea is here and this push is working even at pro level.
But continue to theorycraft blindly during hours "it's not viable blabla too weak blabla"
Nobody is saying that the composition isn't viable and as you linked there have been many examples of this composition working. The Hammer BUILD though needs a lot of work with re-arranging the buildings and order of gasses because right now as many people have pointed out, it is inefficient for harassing and getting econ together for a timing attack.
Look at how STRONG the push is, how one-sided the engagement is, how wrong MaNa's army is.
So THIS IS viable. If even an international pro gamer like Mana didn't scout this and chose the wrong army comp, think about how effective it is on ladder… Now Hammer build can be refined, but the general idea is here and this push is working even at pro level.
But continue to theorycraft blindly during hours "it's not viable blabla too weak blabla"
Just because a build works in one game does not mean it is viable it just means that in a very specific instance it works. That being said this has worked in more than one game, three others that come to mind are this one , this one, and this one (need a gsl season 2 ticket to watch the last one). A really important thing to note however was the beastyqt has been the only professional so far that has take this composition to the late game. This would make beastyqt's game a really important one to study in order to determine how this style work out in the late game and as less of a 2 base timing.
Another thing to think about is that a style should not be viable due to mistakes that an opponent makes. If your opponent does not scout and you win that does not mean the style is viable it just means that your opponent did not react correctly. A style should be viable when it can work in multiple situations not just viable when your opponent screws up. Of course that is my opinion on what being viable means different people will see styles and builds as viable differently based on different critiria.
Look at how STRONG the push is, how one-sided the engagement is, how wrong MaNa's army is.
So THIS IS viable. If even an international pro gamer like Mana didn't scout this and chose the wrong army comp, think about how effective it is on ladder… Now Hammer build can be refined, but the general idea is here and this push is working even at pro level.
But continue to theorycraft blindly during hours "it's not viable blabla too weak blabla"
However, note Jjakji's infrastructure as the push commences - i have not seen the replay in question, but have seen two other games of Jjakji doing this build in TvP (a very good game on day break comes to mind). From what i understand there is no way to win after the push fails (in the circumstance that it does fail) because the infrastructure is just so awkward and has no ability to compete with warpgate units after a certain point (where mass warpins start happening, faactory units just seem to build in slow motion -- especially banshees and thors. very long build time just to see it feedbacked by a unit warped in seconds before the engagement.
A lot has gone on since I was last on lol. You guys can say its not viable, the order is not good, should 1Rax FE... I win a lot with it. I scout. Sometimes I have to change the order of things to deal with what I scout. Sometimes I cap the refinery of opponent, or delay starport or make 2nd bunker, or pump non-stop marines... the build works up through Masters. End of story. Cheers!
EPT
jokes aside, this looks like a decent way to play. Since you would have to split upgrades, do you just transition to straight mech? I don't really see it working that well aside from a 2 base all-in. That's the problem with biomech in my opinion. Ghost mech on the other hand.....
