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On April 04 2012 19:28 WeathermanSC wrote:
So, it seems that in all of your replays that you've gone for a maxed out (or close to maxed out) push at around the 13-15 minute mark and have just crushed your opponent. Do you have any matches with this build where you have played into the much later stages of the game? How would you prioritize upgrades? (armor/weapons, and air vs. ground). It seems like this really has to be approached as a "mech" build in the later stages as it looks like the Marines are basically fodder when they are incorporated.
That's a really good question about late game. Typically before the main "15 min" engagement I have my third almost done and have 2 rax + 1 factory + 2 starports. Lately I have been putting down another armory and also begin upgrades on banshee +1 attack, then thor +1 armor... the goal of the build is too reduce opponents income by taking out his min line at main prior to first engage and then being able to resupply quicker (kinda like zerg does, weaker units but more).
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On April 04 2012 19:52 Lyyna wrote:
Really nice build. I remember having a lots of fun after the beta with marineThorBanshee . . . Dunno why i stopped doing this composition
Anyway, your opening is really interesting. But i wanna ask : how do your hold 1 base stuff? You have low marine count and your first thor is here at around 7 min if you rush for it. . . and most 1base allin can hold around 6 min.
I scout for it, lay down second bunker and have scv's ready. By the time they get through the bunkers (if they do) THOR IS HERE and I can mass rep that.. and sometimes I lose to 1 base 
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On April 04 2012 20:00 Arcanefrost wrote:
You should just 1rax fe and then go factory tech. Of course you will die to any all-in, but if you do a timing push yourself holding cheese is not a priority.
On April 04 2012 20:20 AvengerAzrael wrote:
Why not open 2 Rax gasless expand (12/14 rax)?
I think it will trick the protoss into thinking you'll go for some pressure, plus you'll have sufficient marines while you tech up.
Just an idea, I don't know how effective it is or has it been tried before.
I've been thinking about doing that for sometime now. Do you think it leaves me a little more vulnerable to DT and void play though?
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On April 04 2012 21:08 Bourne wrote:
Just a little comment, i watched the replay, i didnt realise that your build skips cloak so early. I mean, cloak is an expensive upgrade but can make the protoss go into overdrive to try and defend vs them, they have to have an obs at each mineral line, along with 2/3 stalkers. I think you are missing a great opportunity to harass the protoss while you get up a base. Otherwise, 1 gate Expand will just get ahead because they can be so greedy that your turtling. Anyway, Nice composition i think this gives something for terran to work with.
I've played around with early cloak and harass. It has some positive's and negatives. Protoss certainly has to react, and often overreacts to it. And sometimes they build more stalkers to deal with it (which are WEAK vs this comp). The problem is though, I really like my 14ish banshee attack at main min, and almost always kill 15-25 workers as a result of the "suprise". Because of my early raven and thor air range its fairly easy to take out snoopy obs and often they think its just thor/rine something.
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On April 05 2012 01:17 mosfet wrote:
How does this work against blink stalkers?
I've been doing something similar to this for a while now, and stalkers blinking into my main is usually what trips me up. Since I'm relying on mainly slow thors, and they will always have an obs for cloaked banshees, its really hard to come out on top when this happens.
Against blink stalkers it's fine, just know where they are and keep pushing them back. You can also throw in an ebay and put up turrets to take out obs.
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Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level.
Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
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On April 05 2012 01:52 Unfeared wrote:Nope, 2 basing with this composition is just not viable. 1-1-1 is so strong because it could be any composition. By expanding like this you've showed enough and protoss will just make colossus or tech storm. You need to hit before any of those timings. http://drop.sc/replays?player=#114352dl my reps vs desrow/vilesync/4kdream to see an example of this. The protoss players you faced were just simply inexperienced and made bad decisions.
LOL. You're wrong, I win all the time with it. Every diamond/masters protoss player I beat with it is just inexperienced? K buds
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On April 05 2012 02:11 crocodile wrote:Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level. Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
LOL, this ^
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thor banshee can be good - koreans use it here and there. but this is not the build you want to use lol.
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On April 05 2012 02:11 crocodile wrote:Every time anybody comes up with a new TvP build that works in Master league, a bunch of angry nerds show up to explain that the opponents were bad and that the build is not viable at a high level. Seems like there are very few Protoss who are actually any good if the ones in Master league are all bad
If you read TL, you might notice people think Protoss is the easy race to play. Similar thing happened in BW and we have a lot of 1a2a3aprotossnoobrace jokes. It is true that it was easier to rank up with Protoss in BW, and if true for SC2 then we should definitely see a lot of skill-less players making it too high with P.
The way the ladder works, it is possible to end up playing people that are a lot worse than you in a particular matchup. Like if you are super weak vT and vZ but good vP you will have super high winrates vs P because your mmr is too low and sets up games vs bad players. That's why everytime someone posts a nonstandard build every troll on the site starts talking "how come pros don't do this?", and in all honesty I agree that only super high level games count if you want to analyse balance. Maybe it is true that the guide poster worked up a way to get a broken mmr, but maybe the pros are all trying to get better with the current styles and just massgaming mindlessly. Nobody knows...
The fact is that we have developed a huge debate over the best unit compositions for Terran and people are defending their side too emotionally
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I love the build, thanks to HammerSC2, this gives me hope as a Terran who is stuck in plat. I have tried using marine/tank style for many matchups but I think I do not have the APM to do as many things simultaneously as I need to.
With your specific timings, I am worried about the number of Collosi but since this is working for you, big props to you.
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I agree. But who's talking about balance? I don't remember a part of the guide that said 'guys all the pros should start doing this and it's the best strategy ever.' It's just Hammer sharing a guide for a build that works.
The people explaining why it won't work at a higher level who ARE NOT helping to improve the build are really just trying to boost their egos. It's actually pathetic. If you don't think the build is viable, great! Keep it to yourself though. If you think the build has flaws and can be improved, EXPLAIN WHERE IT CAN BE IMPROVED. Don't just go 'your opponent was bad, this build is stupid you noob.'
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On April 05 2012 02:51 D_K_night wrote:
I love the build, thanks to HammerSC2, this gives me hope as a Terran who is stuck in plat. I have tried using marine/tank style for many matchups but I think I do not have the APM to do as many things simultaneously as I need to.
With your specific timings, I am worried about the number of Collosi but since this is working for you, big props to you.
That's awesome buddy! Good luck. Don't worry about Colloss as you can take em out easy with banshee's and pdd to protect. make sure keep marines behind thors
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This isn't a viable strategy- you're trying to take a 111 allin-push, and make it a macro thing. That simply doesn't work for the reasons stated above (namely, you get more and more behind as time goes on)
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On April 05 2012 02:51 crocodile wrote:
I agree. But who's talking about balance? I don't remember a part of the guide that said 'guys all the pros should start doing this and it's the best strategy ever.' It's just Hammer sharing a guide for a build that works.
The people explaining why it won't work at a higher level who ARE NOT helping to improve the build are really just trying to boost their egos. It's actually pathetic. If you don't think the build is viable, great! Keep it to yourself though. If you think the build has flaws and can be improved, EXPLAIN WHERE IT CAN BE IMPROVED. Don't just go 'your opponent was bad, this build is stupid you noob.'
Improve the build: Don't expand, pull all scvs for first (and only attack). Done.
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That's a different build. Stop trolling please. You're pretty pathetic.
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On April 05 2012 04:52 DYEAlabaster wrote:
This isn't a viable strategy- you're trying to take a 111 allin-push, and make it a macro thing. That simply doesn't work for the reasons stated above (namely, you get more and more behind as time goes on)
Ahhh what are you talking about?? Did you watch the vid lol. Sort yourself out
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Open demuslim TvZ style, it'll open smoother, and let you FE safely with a gas, and look like gasless FE.
12 rax
16 gas
22-23 CC at natural
24 factory
25 reactor.
Looks like gasless FE, and gives you 4 marines + bunker + a factory still fast, with a more economic FE where you don't cut marines or SCVs.
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On April 05 2012 04:52 DYEAlabaster wrote:
This isn't a viable strategy- you're trying to take a 111 allin-push, and make it a macro thing. That simply doesn't work for the reasons stated above (namely, you get more and more behind as time goes on)
I don't know if everyone posting this is trolling or just dumb. He throws a CC down at 22/23 supply, he doesn't even make a Starport until after his CC. There is no reactor on barracks, there is nothing produced out of the factory until the CC is down, etc. The only similarity it has with 1/1/1 is that it gets a factory and makes banshees... eventually.
Personally I think there are a lot of flaws with the build, but it has nothing to do with it being similar to a 1/1/1.
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On April 05 2012 05:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Open demuslim TvZ style, it'll open smoother, and let you FE safely with a gas, and look like gasless FE.
12 rax
16 gas
22-23 CC at natural
24 factory
25 reactor.
Looks like gasless FE, and gives you 4 marines + bunker + a factory still fast, with a more economic FE where you don't cut marines or SCVs.
Thanks man, I will take a look at that
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EPT
