EPT[G] TvP Hammer 111 Expand (80% Win Ratio) - Page 2
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Janders
Mexico222 Posts
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
On April 04 2012 10:23 HammerSC2 wrote: LOL, k thanks. Have you tried it, laddered with it?? Didn't think so. High Masters players are using it successfully and.. oh ya I'm in Masters now too  I was pointing out what I thought to be a fallacy with the build since it opens like a 1/1/1 but your economy deficiency leaves you vulnerable to what would be a normal 1/1/1 response from the protoss. If you want I can just play you and show you what I'm referring to, it's not hard to stamp out builds like this since they aren't harassed based and sacrifice economy for a slower weaker army. | ||
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HammerSC2
Canada103 Posts
On April 04 2012 10:34 CaptainHaz wrote: I was pointing out what I thought to be a fallacy with the build since it opens like a 1/1/1 but your economy deficiency leaves you vulnerable to what would be a normal 1/1/1 response from the protoss. If you want I can just play you and show you what I'm referring to, it's not hard to stamp out builds like this since they aren't harassed based and sacrifice economy for a slower weaker army. What's your username, number. And it's clearly easier when you know what I'm doing LOL. | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
On April 04 2012 10:36 HammerSC2 wrote: What's your username, number. And it's clearly easier when you know what I'm doing LOL. If it makes you feel any better I will not react to the build until the obs shows up. I'm not just going to blind counter it, I wouldn't need to. Haz 380 | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
On April 04 2012 10:39 CaptainHaz wrote: If it makes you feel any better I will not react to the build until the obs shows up. I'm not just going to blind counter it, I wouldn't need to. Haz 380 Replay please :D i wanna see | ||
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HammerSC2
Canada103 Posts
On April 04 2012 10:39 CaptainHaz wrote: If it makes you feel any better I will not react to the build until the obs shows up. I'm not just going to blind counter it, I wouldn't need to. Haz 380 Uhh that's pretty dumb, since regardless of obs or not you already know what I'm doing. I've added ya though so lets get it on!!! | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
On April 04 2012 10:25 Janders wrote: rofl high templars have nothing to do with it. one does not answer with high templars vs a 1 1 1, the best way to beat 1 1 1 in early tech(colossus or some immortals), early expo for lots of units and adding production and cutting probes at the right time or good decision making and auto loses to better play Colossus does not bring victory over 111 Early expand is counterproductive because expo does not really kick in yet when 111 push comes in. The expo also gets shut down pretty fast. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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pimsc2
France73 Posts
I was stuck a very long time in platinum and thanks to you, I'm now top diamond (master next season for sure !). You made TvZ my best matchup with your reaper drop opening into mass marines 3/3 drops (I have up to 400 apm when the situation is getting hot, so I outmicro and multitask zerg very easily). My win ratio versus Zerg is around 80-90% now. And you enabled me to forget about bio in TvP, because I find it really too weak and too unforgiving. Relying on EMP / stim / hit & run / drops versus the a-move speedlots and AOE units like archons or colossus really pissed me off. I have excellent results with your Hammer 1-1-1 expand, even if it took a long time to learn to macro hard and hit the 15 min 200/200 timing. Protoss usually barely scout after one or two obs denied with the first raven, and they never understand there are 3 starports pumping banshees. Even if they perfectly understood what I'm doing, I'm usually fine because of the very crisp max-out timing & the huge 14min banshee runby. The only way be killed at that timing with this army is a massive storm & several feedbacks if I really screw my unit control, because this army comp tend to stack easily. If I can't kill him right away, usually I can double expand, begin upgrades, harass him with rallied banshees everywhere, and transition into Lynna's mech style, with ghosts & BC (thanks to the 3 starports w/ tech lab integrated in your build). It's almost a freewin. I have a lot of questions from protoss who ask me how to stop this incredibly strong push, because 90% of the time they have no idea. They see the first thor & marines, expect some kind of all in and begin immos, then transition into colossus when they see so many marines, and usually they don't understand early enough there is almost 12 cloacked banshees incoming. In fact the only hard counter is the high templar which can storm & feedback everything, all the gates & robo units melts incredibly fast to this. Finally a terran army that can fight a protoss one straight up without feeling inferior. I have about 75% win ratio if not more against Protoss now. Thanks Hammer ! Looking forward for your builds in Heart of the swarm ! Oh, and show us a great TvT build, this is my most random matchup despite my solid macro and multitask. | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
-Expansion is too slow vs economically aggressive openings from the Protoss. -Immortal busts are hard to stop, the one I did wasn't even too committal. -The army itself is a bit weak early on since you need kind of a deathball of thors and banshees. -Warp prism good unit.... Anyway, just one replay for now vs Hammer, we'll see what other ways there are to play against this. http://drop.sc/151369 | ||
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HammerSC2
Canada103 Posts
On April 04 2012 11:03 pimsc2 wrote: I use all your builds Hammer. I was stuck a very long time in platinum and thanks to you, I'm now top diamond (master next season for sure !). You made TvZ my best matchup with your reaper drop opening into mass marines 3/3 drops (I have up to 400 apm when the situation is getting hot, so I outmicro and multitask zerg very easily). My win ratio versus Zerg is around 80-90% now. And you enabled me to forget about bio in TvP, because I find it really too weak and too unforgiving. Relying on EMP / stim / hit & run / drops versus the a-move speedlots and AOE units like archons or colossus really pissed me off. I have excellent results with your Hammer 1-1-1 expand, even if it took a long time to learn to macro hard and hit the 15 min 200/200 timing. Protoss usually barely scout after one or two obs denied with the first raven, and they never understand there are 3 starports pumping banshees. Even if they perfectly understood what I'm doing, I'm usually fine because of the very crisp max-out timing & the huge 14min banshee runby. The only way be killed at that timing with this army is a massive storm & several feedbacks if I really screw my unit control, because this army comp tend to stack easily. If I can't kill him right away, usually I can double expand, begin upgrades, harass him with rallied banshees everywhere, and transition into Lynna's mech style, with ghosts & BC (thanks to the 3 starports w/ tech lab integrated in your build). It's almost a freewin. I have a lot of questions from protoss who ask me how to stop this incredibly strong push, because 90% of the time they have no idea. They see the first thor & marines, expect some kind of all in and begin immos, then transition into colossus when they see so many marines, and usually they don't understand early enough there is almost 12 cloacked banshees incoming. In fact the only hard counter is the high templar which can storm & feedback everything, all the gates & robo units melts incredibly fast to this. Finally a terran army that can fight a protoss one straight up without feeling inferior. I have about 75% win ratio if not more against Protoss now. Thanks Hammer ! Looking forward for your builds in Heart of the swarm ! Oh, and show us a great TvT build, this is my most random matchup despite my solid macro and multitask. Thats awesome man! Thanks for letting me know, its really great to hear some of the builds are helping people in the Terran community. Sounds like they've worked REALLY well for you! Whats your username/number and I'll tell ya about a TvT I've been doing lately. Cheers! | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On April 04 2012 10:44 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Colossus does not bring victory over 111 Early expand is counterproductive because expo does not really kick in yet when 111 push comes in. The expo also gets shut down pretty fast. If you check out kcdc's PvT Guide, there is a section of the guide concerning 1-1-1, and although it is meant to follow along with his version of the 1 gate fast expand, the instructions for defending the push should work with any reasonable 1 gate FE, I'll quote the section for you: + Show Spoiler + Pull your troops back to your natural. Use your 2 unit warp-in at 6:00 to warp 2 stalkers in to defend your mineral line in your main. Remember to actually put the stalkers IN the mineral line because it's going to be really annoying when hellions drop somewhere you don't expect and get free shots while your stalkers walk over. Build pylons at the normal times, but be sure to spread them to spot incoming drops and banshees. Send a probe to monitor T's natural, and chronoboost 2 observers as soon as your robo finishes. Take your third gas, and continue warping in stalkers and zealots. You want to prioritize stalkers as gas allows until you have about 6 for harass-defense. After ~6 stalkers, you want to favor zealots as they're better for defeating the eventual push. Keep 3 stalkers in each mineral line until the push comes. Get 3 more gates (total of 5) and cut probe production entirely when you reach ~38 workers. If it's a normal 1-1-1 with tanks, get an immortal after 2 observers and then spend your next 200 gas on a robo support bay. Having a colossus is important for beating late all-ins at 12:30 or later because the marine ball will get too big with too little surface area to beat it consistently with just zealots+guardian shield. If the push leaves earlier, you can just cancel the support bay to get out a couple extra units. Pull some probes off of gas as you'll mostly need zealots from this point on. If it's a 2-port banshee all-in, get a forge and a stargate. Cannon the crap out of your natural, get some phoenixes, and then get a support bay if he's just chilling outside your natural. If you have enough cannons, he can't push without tanks, and you'll have a colossus by the time he can start sieging your cannons. Kill whatever push he sends your way and collect your victory. If it's cloaked banshee into expansion instead of an all-in, do a 2 colossus timing with thermal lance. Notice how "it's overpowered" or "impossible to defend" are missing from the guide, this is probably because those statements simply aren't true, a 1-1-1 can be defended, it's not some godsend impossible to beat build, otherwise it would be the only build that is used by Terrans, and it's not. | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
about 111, sure it can be defended, but its not like there is any "counter" for it. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On April 04 2012 11:42 Mongolbonjwa wrote: hammer do you have any tvz builds about 111, sure it can be defended, but its not like there is any "counter" for it. ... But you literally said: "No matter how good your decision making is, you are not gonna hold 111 because its overpowered." | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 04 2012 11:19 CaptainHaz wrote: Only got to play one game against Hammer, but I still echo my original concerns. -Expansion is too slow vs economically aggressive openings from the Protoss. -Immortal busts are hard to stop, the one I did wasn't even too committal. -The army itself is a bit weak early on since you need kind of a deathball of thors and banshees. -Warp prism good unit.... Anyway, just one replay for now vs Hammer, we'll see what other ways there are to play against this. http://drop.sc/151369 I think the general composition Hammer is trying to go for is a good one. What it needs are two things: - more ravens to counter the phoenix - more ghosts to counter any storm Seeing as he's going for a deathball style army this shouldn't be too hard to incorporate. There are also some nasty timing pushes with thor/banshee he can use to punish quick thirds. Hammer could have also harassed more that game; particularly if he uses the raven/viking combo to kill obs which would allow the banshees to kill a lot of stuff. I think there is potential in this, although it certainly isn't unbeatable. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
I use a varation of it but instead of 1-1-1, I go 1Rax FE, for the 4 quick gas into quad port thor/rine (combat + stim,+1 attack), thor, +2 armor banshee/raven push with 200/200, unless I majorly screw up itand they have a large amount of HT storming everything, this combination is difficult to stop. This strategy has been viable since season 2 though.... You dont necessary have to hit at the 200/200 timing window. As a previous poster mentioned, if there's a quick 3rd, you have a very chance to win the game because it punishes greedy toss players, it also punishes any colosseus heavy builds with mass shee's. Only real counter to it is smart blink stalker/chargelot/HT/Archon play, but even then its a chess match. definitely possible to win | ||
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LighT.
Canada4501 Posts
On April 04 2012 12:10 statikg wrote: I used to use a simiilar combo all the time up into high masters. I did it with a 1rax expand into 3rax and 1factor 2 starports. Same end composition but probably a bit more units and with a raven. Gets beat by a colossus/phenoix composition but since its a rare style protoss typically don't react quickly enough to save themselves from the push. Typically it either results in crushing victory or a slow painful death by colossus. You should scout, if you see phoenixes, just pump out a round of vikings, usually does its job since its only priority are air units. It helps to snipe observers making cloakshees more effective. This combination is said to be -allinish but there's transitions to it, including to the one of "Sky-terran" with raven/bc (yamato)/shee composition or because you have the rax, you can just switch back to standard with bio. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On April 04 2012 09:31 EmilA wrote: Because one day, god help us for I dread the day, you may get out of bronze league on SEA. Dont be so arrogant by saying bronze league on "SEA" Are you GM in SEA? | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
The marine/thor/banshee/raven is certainly viable and has featured in some important GSL game. Off the top of my head, I remember Jjakji using it to defeat Puzzle during his GSL 2011 Nov run. For an example of a loss, I think Ryung failed to beat MC using the build in a GSL match but I can't remember which one. My take on the build is that it's a reasonable one and useful as a surprise weapon - however, I feel that the top korean pros definitely have a handle on beating it, which is why the majority of terrans transition into MMMGV nowdays. However, this build would certainly work on a Masters level, which is what most players want to aim for anyways. I personally (before I stopped) played a sky-terran variation to much success in the Masters league - but I was under no illusion that it will be successful in the pro-level. | ||
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WeathermanSC
6 Posts
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