EPT[G] TvP Hammer 111 Expand (80% Win Ratio) - Page 3
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
Anyway, your opening is really interesting. But i wanna ask : how do your hold 1 base stuff? You have low marine count and your first thor is here at around 7 min if you rush for it. . . and most 1base allin can hold around 6 min. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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AvengerAzrael
Lebanon20 Posts
I think it will trick the protoss into thinking you'll go for some pressure, plus you'll have sufficient marines while you tech up. Just an idea, I don't know how effective it is or has it been tried before. | ||
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On April 04 2012 19:47 KAmaKAsa wrote: This is gimmicky and bad. a templar opening completely stomps this push and scouting wasnt really happening all that much in the vods and your skill level is probs around NA masters or dia somewhere else. Every unit you have is energy based and getting ghosts delays this alot and you cant transition from this all that well since you dont have any upgrades on anything useful when your opponent has set up the counter composition to this... so that makes this an all in... the 1-1-1 all in is still somewhat viable with even more new variations coming from it, but this... style or build i would not recommend to anyone Actually this build and composition seem similar to a build BeastyQT revived recently in some of his tournament play. In his game against Parting or Creator (forget) on Calm, he actually gets 5 bases after the game goes 20+ minutes...so allin? He generally gets mech upgrades and + attack for bio units so the composition scales very well, and it's quite easy to transition into a macro game as your push will very often prove cost efficient in destroying a fair amount of the Protoss tech units and/or gateway core. About templar openings, this build is actually much more effective against templar than colossus first, as there is a rather large timing window where 2 base colossus allins can really rain on your parade. And templar really don't do as much damage as you'd think against this composition, in maxed fights you need a ridiculous amount of templar to get all necessary feedbacks and storms off, and that is detrimental to the rest of your army. Banshee harass is an extremely good way to force additional observers and lower the stalker count so higher tech is slightly delayed in favor of spending more gas on stalker warpins, and as long as you play it smart and don't lose your banshees, you can even delay his third a bit by spreading him thin. But as long as you do get upgrades OP, this build seems like it would work well on larger maps, although you really need great scouting in order to not die earlier as you are investing in another cc. And please stop with the high and mighty hurr durr NA sucks = gold Korea bullshit, because except at the very top of the ladder, skill level remains quite consistent, and you wouldn't bring up the point if you actually played on multiple servers. I'm currently actually higher on EU than NA with a relatively similar amount of games played, and that's eating lag as well. | ||
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On April 04 2012 20:44 Badfatpanda wrote: Actually this build and composition seem similar to a build BeastyQT revived recently in some of his tournament play. In his game against Parting or Creator (forget) on Calm, he actually gets 5 bases after the game goes 20+ minutes...so allin? He generally gets mech upgrades and + attack for bio units so the composition scales very well, and it's quite easy to transition into a macro game as your push will very often prove cost efficient in destroying a fair amount of the Protoss tech units and/or gateway core. About templar openings, this build is actually much more effective against templar than colossus first, as there is a rather large timing window where 2 base colossus allins can really rain on your parade. And templar really don't do as much damage as you'd think against this composition, in maxed fights you need a ridiculous amount of templar to get all necessary feedbacks and storms off, and that is detrimental to the rest of your army. Banshee harass is an extremely good way to force additional observers and lower the stalker count so higher tech is slightly delayed in favor of spending more gas on stalker warpins, and as long as you play it smart and don't lose your banshees, you can even delay his third a bit by spreading him thin. But as long as you do get upgrades OP, this build seems like it would work well on larger maps, although you really need great scouting in order to not die earlier as you are investing in another cc. And please stop with the high and mighty hurr durr NA sucks = gold Korea bullshit, because except at the very top of the ladder, skill level remains quite consistent, and you wouldn't bring up the point if you actually played on multiple servers. I'm currently actually higher on EU than NA with a relatively similar amount of games played, and that's eating lag as well. well what this guy is doing is weak and gimmicky i havent seen the game you mentioned with beastyqt and the NA is worse than EU/KR isnt bullshit actually.. yeah getting upgrades is obviously important but the build beastyqt mightve been map specific because in calm before the storm you can be very greedy with teching and economy due to the way the map is laid out. Haven't seen the game youre talking about so dno | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On April 04 2012 09:31 EmilA wrote: Because one day, god help us for I dread the day, you may get out of bronze league on SEA. i win with 111 against GM tosses on EU.... | ||
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
NA is worse than KR, but not gold. My friend is mid masters in NA and high plat on Korea, with lag. So yes its big but not huge.  | ||
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Bourne
United Kingdom152 Posts
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dohgg
310 Posts
On April 04 2012 09:59 Mongolbonjwa wrote: But there is no real counter to 111 yet even when scouted, protos loses to it. lol? stalker harras + cutting reinforce + cutting probes. gl with your 111... 111 is used in high level for a matter of mixing up the game, not as a standrad play - and as many ppl mentioned. the higher the level of your opp the weak your build will be. 1 RAX FE 4EVER!!!! JUST L2P. | ||
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Figgy
Canada1788 Posts
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
rather you should talk about your build only and try improve it. using "sea bronze" to describe a comment you dont like wont get people to pay attention to you or your thread at all. also youre both from EU | ||
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pimsc2
France73 Posts
• He WON'T be prepared for 10-12 banshees right into his main at 14 min. He would need at least three canons and stalkers to save their probes. Usually, it's such a surprise that you'll kill around 25 probes, and destroy a working forge / a templar archive / or the robo trying to get out observers. The tech & economy loss IS ACTUALLY what will help you transition to late-game if you need even if you're late on upgrades. I went many many times into late game without issues. You must understand that If you harass him with early banshee, you can be sure he will set up defenses all round his main and mining bases and he will have 3-4 observers for the big fight, and that's not what you want. • He's most likely think he's prepared with immos and colossus most of the time to counter the thor / mass marines. But the truth is, the 15 min engagement is totally one-sided if they don't have at least three observers, high templars full of energy, and storm researched. Any other composition WILL FAIL. • Of course this build is NOT for Korean GM players with constant 200 apm, ability to harass with multiple banshees while macroing, and incredible decision making. Damn stop hiding the truth from yourself sometimes on TeamLiquid… You need to understand this is a strategy forum for all players, it's not meant to give advice to GSL code S players and the viability of builds begins when 99% of the players can win with a given strategy, not when code S players do. I even tend to think it's dumb to think GSL strats and builds are viable for us, because we don't have the control of MMA, MKP or MVP. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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ArtemisSC
15 Posts
On April 04 2012 11:19 CaptainHaz wrote: Only got to play one game against Hammer, but I still echo my original concerns. -Expansion is too slow vs economically aggressive openings from the Protoss. -Immortal busts are hard to stop, the one I did wasn't even too committal. -The army itself is a bit weak early on since you need kind of a deathball of thors and banshees. -Warp prism good unit.... Anyway, just one replay for now vs Hammer, we'll see what other ways there are to play against this. http://drop.sc/151369 Yeah, you really crushed that build. It would have been even more one sided if you plopped down a 3rd before you attacked his natural as you had the money anyway. Some points for hammer: I really think you should incorporate upgrades into this build. +1 Vehicle weapons or even +1 Air weapons is pretty huge when you're making that many banshees/thors. 100/100 for Combat Shield is pretty important too, since 45 hp marines are pretty much garbage. You also need to wall off, or partially wall off your natural. The immortal zealot bust at your natural should have done little to no damage, but because you had poor sim city and decision making (salvaging the bunker randomly without knowing what he's doing) you lost too much stuff and that killed your timing window. (Not to mention you didn't drop the PDD until half way into the fight). The positioning of your army at your natural is...questionable. It allows someone to run up the ramp and get a half decent concave, instead of you having a solid concave setup before hand. Also kills any sort of defender's "ramp" advantage that you should take advantage of. You also REALLY need to build a barracks to lift it and send it to the bottom of your ramp so you can see what the hell they're doing (or scout somehow, since you lost so much stuff to an immortal/zealot/etc poke). Definitely a viable build - I don't agree with teching to factory and then dropping your CC but that's just me, as it'd be much better to 1rax FE and then transition into thor banshee play so you aren't behind when they 1gate FE or nexus first. And getting a tech lab when you don't plan on upgrading marines or getting marauders/ghosts is like ugh, a reactor would be much better. Lifting off your barracks and using it to wall along with a bunker pretty much says "hi, I'm not going bio, please build immortals and kill me" as well. | ||
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
With a 100% win rate? | ||
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mosfet
Canada34 Posts
I've been doing something similar to this for a while now, and stalkers blinking into my main is usually what trips me up. Since I'm relying on mainly slow thors, and they will always have an obs for cloaked banshees, its really hard to come out on top when this happens. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
edit- another concern is upgrades. you don't seem to upgrade much in the games I've watched. It's hard to figure out what to focus on in a longer game with marines, banshees, and thors as your composition. A protoss going heavy forge upgrades will eventually overpower you if you can't keep up, and investing in all 3 trees is hard. | ||
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yoona2012
Denmark196 Posts
First game, the protoss opened 3 gate expand on cross position and didn´t even try to use his expensive opening to be agressive - he didn't even do the standard stalker zealot poke. And around 6.00 he simply forgot to make probes for almost a minute, which resulted in the fact that when you turned income tab on, he was only ahead with 1 worker (40vs39), where he ought to be way ahead because of chrono boost (and usually do either 1 gate expand or be agressive if doing 2 or 3 gate expand). 2nd game, so this protoss at least got a faster expansion, but then he suddenly decides to put some preassure on while he´s doing that, for 3 bloody minutes (from 5.45 to 8.45) he doesn´t produce a single probe even though he´s floating minerals after each warpin. There were so much bad play that it made me question if you´re facing gold rankers? Now I do the marine thor banshee occasionally, and I really dislike your version. First off all, I would do gasless 1 rax expand rather than your awkward factory armory expand. You´d have more income and wouldn´t need to salvage and replace bunker at natural, going factory armory before expand, when you´re already planning on expanding seems backwards when it´s just as safe. Also your silly relocation of your barracks seems pointless to me. build it where you want it to be, and stop floating it around and maybe you´d actually have enough marines out to stop early preassure - in fact in cross position like shakuras you can delay your bunker by alot, if you just make marines constantly. Not getting strike cannon seems risky to me, as strike cannon is good vs immortal and colossi and most importantly getting rid of all that energy vs feedback, but then again, 2/2/2 marine thor banshee usually hit earlier than your version. I know there´s a skill difference (or at least most people would agree with me thinking so) between NA masters and EU masters, but I really doubt you´d have much success with that execution of 2/2/2 on EU in master ladder. | ||
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Poopfeast
160 Posts
http://drop.sc/replays?player=#114352 dl my reps vs desrow/vilesync/4kdream to see an example of this. The protoss players you faced were just simply inexperienced and made bad decisions. | ||
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