EPTEdit/ Admittedly DRG was a little sloppy in his play. Both in the attack at the 3rd (losing too many Roaches) and then on the middle of the map. JYP did have a very high Sentry count though, iirc, and used ff well when defending the push at his 3rd.
[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 42
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
Edit/ Admittedly DRG was a little sloppy in his play. Both in the attack at the 3rd (losing too many Roaches) and then on the middle of the map. JYP did have a very high Sentry count though, iirc, and used ff well when defending the push at his 3rd. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
Well, nevermind those replays because Stephano must have done something v wrong. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On March 25 2012 09:06 aZealot wrote: Wow, JYP vs DRG on TDA. DRG takes the Protoss 3rd with mass Roach but JYP counters for the win. Edit/ Admittedly DRG was a little sloppy in his play. Both in the attack at the 3rd (losing too many Roaches) and then on the middle of the map. JYP did have a very high Sentry count though, iirc, and used ff well when defending the push at his 3rd. His roaches were trapped by ffs. JYP also erred a little in letting those roaches into his natural, so it kind of balanced out imo. The high sentry count was super necessary till he had the large blink stalker ball. PS: Did anyone else think JYP's simcity at his third worked against him? | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
standard PvZ opening on antiga standard +1 zealot harass drg goes for mass roach, but gets disturbed by jyps aggression (pure blinkstalkers, some sentrys) on drgs third, looks like an interesting situation (11-12min) 150 vs 100 supply, blink stalkers seems to be able to delay the zergs attack nice, however in these small skirmishes jyp overextends and loses to many stalkers, but still i think some nice data to be analysed. | ||
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Funguuuuu
United States198 Posts
On March 25 2012 09:06 aZealot wrote: Wow, JYP vs DRG on TDA. DRG takes the Protoss 3rd with mass Roach but JYP counters for the win. Edit/ Admittedly DRG was a little sloppy in his play. Both in the attack at the 3rd (losing too many Roaches) and then on the middle of the map. JYP did have a very high Sentry count though, iirc, and used ff well when defending the push at his 3rd. I think JYP could've saved the nexus in that game. I'm pretty sure I saw him move back and forth for a little while between his natural and third without attacking either group. If he had been more decisive, I think he might have been in a even better position. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On March 25 2012 08:18 Funguuuuu wrote: Couldn't you see what he is doing with your hallucination, and then punish a really fast 4th by him? I guess, I don't know, hence my question. Although, it may be the wrong question. The whole point of a safe 3rd is for Protoss to get into the late game (going by all the comments in this thread). If so, it may not matter if Zerg takes a faster 4th as the Protoss can get his money units/composition/upgrades and take a 4th himself later in the game behind his army and stay in the game. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 25 2012 09:59 aZealot wrote: I guess, I don't know, hence my question. Although, it may be the wrong question. The whole point of a safe 3rd is for Protoss to get into the late game (going by all the comments in this thread). If so, it may not matter if Zerg takes a faster 4th as the Protoss can get his money units/composition/upgrades and take a 4th himself later in the game behind his army and stay in the game. So the theoretical match would go something like this: -P FFE's -Z no-gas 3 hatch -P forfeits 8-10 minute pressure window to take third, defends with mass +2 blink stalker -Z plays passively, expanding and teching fast hive It's tough to say how the rest of the MU plays out from this point without a lot of experience. It may be the case that P forfeiting the 8-10 minute pressure window to power economy allows him a really strong 13-15 minute pressure window, and that it's actually harder for Z to tech hive than it would be against Protoss strategies with earlier aggression. Or maybe the lack of early pressure allows Z to snowball his economy so quickly that he'll have broodlords before P can possibly have the right composition to fight them. We'll figure out what works and what doesn't in time. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On March 25 2012 08:18 Funguuuuu wrote: Couldn't you see what he is doing with your hallucination, and then punish a really fast 4th by him? Fast 3rd from toss can't punish a fast 4th from zerg. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 25 2012 11:54 NrGmonk wrote: Fast 3rd from toss can't punish a fast 4th from zerg. It might be able to. Really depends on the game and the positioning of the 4th base. Take Antiga, for example. If P can get near-maxed by 13:30 and dominate the middle of the map until Z has broodlords, then Z can't take a fourth till hive tech on Antiga. Tough to say what's possible because we haven't yet seen a competitive game where P hits 140 supply by 12:00. | ||
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VictorJones
United States235 Posts
I am personally of the opinion that stargate play is the way to stop this. I like Genius's build. I always get crushed by the roach flood if i go anything other than stargate but with a void and some phoenixes, the ability to disrupt the z's economy and force them to spend money on spores and stuff slows their push down a little. Also the voidray does well to deal a lot of dmg to the roaches and the phoenixes can lift retreating roaches as he runs away because he can't break through your ramp if u ff well. Also, having phoenixes fly around scouting constantly allows you to know whether or not he will indeed commit to the roach attack in which case you can do a number of things like get more voidrays, tech to immortals off of like 3 gates and 2 bases etc. I don't like T1 units besides sentries against roach heavy openings as stalkers (with blink because vanilla stalkers suck) are simply too cost inefficient to produce to fight against z. I don't personally like the super fast 3rd because it feels really susceptible to creative aggressive reactions from zergs. Idk. I hope this helps. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On March 25 2012 12:24 kcdc wrote: It might be able to. Really depends on the game and the positioning of the 4th base. Take Antiga, for example. If P can get near-maxed by 13:30 and dominate the middle of the map until Z has broodlords, then Z can't take a fourth till hive tech on Antiga. Tough to say what's possible because we haven't yet seen a competitive game where P hits 140 supply by 12:00. I'm all for opening up to different ideas, but this just seems ridiculous to me. You're suggesting that in some situations that zerg has to stay 3 base if he scouts 3 base protoss. With a proper build, zerg should always be able to defend a 4th from any 3 base protoss. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 25 2012 14:26 NrGmonk wrote: I'm all for opening up to different ideas, but this just seems ridiculous to me. You're suggesting that in some situations that zerg has to stay 3 base if he scouts 3 base protoss. With a proper build, zerg should always be able to defend a 4th from any 3 base protoss. I can see where you're coming from, but it's really too early to say what will happen. On Antiga, holding a 4th is all about controlling the center tower. P is able to pack more combat value into their 200/200 than a lair-tech Z can, so in theory, if P can max out before Z has hive tech, then P can control the center. I'm not saying it will play out this way--I'm just saying that it's conceivable that it would. | ||
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willyallthewei
United States265 Posts
Protoss players understand 4G +1 Zeal --> +2 Blink, or DT, or later Blink immortal and other variation of such pressures. Stephano has basically just aligned all his timings with the popular Protoss timings, I think a solution to the problem is simply to screw around with the exact timing and strength of the 2 base pressures. As for expansion builds, many maps the genius build would be super super strong. Personally I just send miss information to the zerg to make him think that a +1 4G or Void + gateway pressure is coming, and take a third behind, if you delay his "moneY' drone count just a bit, usually gives you the time to build the sentry and cannon count to stay alive. | ||
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willyallthewei
United States265 Posts
On March 25 2012 10:51 kcdc wrote: So the theoretical match would go something like this: -P FFE's -Z no-gas 3 hatch -P forfeits 8-10 minute pressure window to take third, defends with mass +2 blink stalker -Z plays passively, expanding and teching fast hive It's tough to say how the rest of the MU plays out from this point without a lot of experience. It may be the case that P forfeiting the 8-10 minute pressure window to power economy allows him a really strong 13-15 minute pressure window, and that it's actually harder for Z to tech hive than it would be against Protoss strategies with earlier aggression. Or maybe the lack of early pressure allows Z to snowball his economy so quickly that he'll have broodlords before P can possibly have the right composition to fight them. We'll figure out what works and what doesn't in time. If you forego the pressure at 8-10 minutes, then theoretically Zerg can grab 3 base muta and take a 4th with impunity, no? | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
On March 25 2012 16:29 willyallthewei wrote: If you forego the pressure at 8-10 minutes, then theoretically Zerg can grab 3 base muta and take a 4th with impunity, no? I think going muta vs this would be a mistake. Mass fast upgraded blink stalkers is already the counter to muta and they're way more cost efficient. To beat mass blink stalker I'm think Z needs at least infestors or huge flanks. The stalkers should have 2 atk upgrades on the Z. With blink the stalkers just survive so long. So hive rush would seem to be better. It's like when T goes fast triple orbital you sometimes see super fast hive rushes as the T aims for a 14 minute attack window. Mutas serve better as a delay tactic but vs mass marine/blink stalker with upgrade doesn't seem worth it. At least from 3 base you have a lot more options of what you can do. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
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fastr
France902 Posts
It is now pretty common to see fast double robo in pvp, why not trying it in pvz? I feel that with 5+ immortals and good forcefields, even a maxed roach army shouldnt causes too much trouble. Just beware of the mutas switch as your stalker count will be low, but with 2 robos you should have enough observers to see it coming. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On March 26 2012 04:51 fastr wrote: Just throwing that outthere without too much thinking in it, but have somebody tried something like ffe into double robo, and taking the third around 10:30 with like 5 immortals 5 sentry and a few cannons (only assuming the composition, probably need to be tested)? It is now pretty common to see fast double robo in pvp, why not trying it in pvz? I feel that with 5+ immortals and good forcefields, even a maxed roach army shouldnt causes too much trouble. Just beware of the mutas switch as your stalker count will be low, but with 2 robos you should have enough observers to see it coming. how on earth would that deal with any other unit composition besides roaches? roach hydra timing will destroy that, even a quick infestor build (roach infestor) can cause havoc against that unit composition. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On March 26 2012 04:51 fastr wrote: Just throwing that outthere without too much thinking in it, but have somebody tried something like ffe into double robo, and taking the third around 10:30 with like 5 immortals 5 sentry and a few cannons (only assuming the composition, probably need to be tested)? It is now pretty common to see fast double robo in pvp, why not trying it in pvz? I feel that with 5+ immortals and good forcefields, even a maxed roach army shouldnt causes too much trouble. Just beware of the mutas switch as your stalker count will be low, but with 2 robos you should have enough observers to see it coming. Then muta or ling roach infestor kills you. | ||
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