EPTYea pretty much this.
[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 43
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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
Yea pretty much this. | ||
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fastr
France902 Posts
All the units composition you gave relies on t2 tech (muta/infestor/hydra). With a fast double robo and multiple observers, I fail to see how it is possible to not scout a fast spire or infestation pit, which I think are the only 2 options that would hard-counter this build. If you see a spire, just stop immortals production, get some stalker and react like you would normally do. Infestor lings timing might be harder to defend, but imo switching into zealot/sentry should enable you to survive. Concerning hydralisk, I can't see how it would causes an issue, as immortals + ff ravages roach/hydra off creep. I might be wrong but I think that protoss has still unexploited options to play against this stephano style. Genius stargate play seems pretty strong, 2 robos should be at least tested, as i have never seen it in a pro game. | ||
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Allred
United States352 Posts
On March 26 2012 06:39 fastr wrote: All the units composition you gave relies on t2 tech (muta/infestor/hydra). With a fast double robo and multiple observers, I fail to see how it is possible to not scout a fast spire or infestation pit, which I think are the only 2 options that would hard-counter this build. If you see a spire, just stop immortals production, get some stalker and react like you would normally do. Infestor lings timing might be harder to defend, but imo switching into zealot/sentry should enable you to survive. Concerning hydralisk, I can't see how it would causes an issue, as immortals + ff ravages roach/hydra off creep. I might be wrong but I think that protoss has still unexploited options to play against this stephano style. Genius stargate play seems pretty strong, 2 robos should be at least tested, as i have never seen it in a pro game. i am pretty sure if you go double robo the mutas will hit before you will have enough time to respond | ||
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fastr
France902 Posts
On March 26 2012 06:51 Allred wrote: i am pretty sure if you go double robo the mutas will hit before you will have enough time to respond Spire : 120 ingame seconds Mutalisk : 33 ingame seconds Time for mutas to come into your base : at least 30 ingame seconds Again, 2 robo, at least 2 observers, easy scouting. Are you sure that in 3 minutes you can't warp 10 stalker and make 2 cannons to defend against 8 mutalisks? Just saying. edit: on 2 bases, i'm pretty sure you can afford 2 robos and 3 gates for immortals + sentry/stalker production. But like I said, it needs some testing. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On March 26 2012 07:03 fastr wrote: Spire : 120 ingame seconds Mutalisk : 33 ingame seconds Time for mutas to come into your base : at least 30 ingame seconds Again, 2 robo, at least 2 observers, easy scouting. Are you sure that in 3 minutes you can't warp 10 stalker and make 2 cannons to defend against 8 mutalisks? Just saying. edit: on 2 bases, i'm pretty sure you can afford 2 robos and 3 gates for immortals + sentry/stalker production. But like I said, it needs some testing. You will just straight up die to mutas if your infrastructure is only 3 gates when mutas show up. You'll also have a close to impossible time trying to defend 3 bases with no twilight, a smaller number of gates, and lots of immortals. 2 blind robos is just too much of an investment just to try to blind counter one particular strategy. | ||
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fastr
France902 Posts
On March 26 2012 07:15 NrGmonk wrote: You will just straight up die to mutas if your infrastructure is only 3 gates when mutas show up. You'll also have a close to impossible time trying to defend 3 bases with no twilight, a smaller number of gates, and lots of immortals. 2 blind robos is just too much of an investment just to try to blind counter one particular strategy. Yes indeed, you won't be able to defend 3 bases with 3 gates against mutas. But if the zerg is going mutalisks, I think you can stall on 2 bases for a few minutes while teching to HT. You will be behind, but not out of the game. I'm not saying 2 robos should be standard, but if 80% of zerg on ladder are doing the stephano build which I think is the case, why not trying to take advantage of it? | ||
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Friend23
Poland270 Posts
Concerning hydralisk, I can't see how it would causes an issue, as immortals + ff ravages roach/hydra off creep. I might be wrong but I think that protoss has still unexploited options to play against this stephano style. Genius stargate play seems pretty strong, 2 robos should be at least tested, as i have never seen it in a pro game. i was insisting on people trying this but nobody cared, just this weekend i had some time to play and i have just super good success with double robo that makes me have +2 ~15 zealots ~7 immortals (yes no stalkers, 1 or 0 sentries) push at 11.00 - 11.30 taking out his third into my expand into blink and with 2 robos you have the work time to get 2 obs out to know about spire easily sometimes when im afraid i get an earlier stargate (that you need to get anyway for mothership) and get out 3 - 5 phoenixes which itself makes the zergs not want to go mutas, and if they do, you can defend just fine with nonblink stalkers + that phoenixes but the current meta is that when zergs are a bit dumb and when they go roaches then they go roaches, and then they get a supprise getting wtf pwnt to pure zealot/immortal about hydras, my 2/1 army pwnt his 2/1 15 stalkers 9 immortals 3 sentries vs 25 roaches 15 hydras, he just said wtf into ragequit, and i was suprised myself too just try it and see yourself edit: and yea, ppl totally forget, speaking about switch into muta, that if zerg has just made xxx roaches, then he has yyy gas less, that means first wave of mutas is just ~7-15 max which is just fine to defend with any stalkers or that 1 cannon and those 3 phoenixes its just totally fine to go double robo into blink | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On March 26 2012 07:22 fastr wrote: Yes indeed, you won't be able to defend 3 bases with 3 gates against mutas. But if the zerg is going mutalisks, I think you can stall on 2 bases for a few minutes while teching to HT. You will be behind, but not out of the game. I'm not saying 2 robos should be standard, but if 80% of zerg on ladder are doing the stephano build which I think is the case, why not trying to take advantage of it? 2 base defensive protoss is close to unwinnable vs 3 base muta. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On March 26 2012 07:22 fastr wrote: Yes indeed, you won't be able to defend 3 bases with 3 gates against mutas. But if the zerg is going mutalisks, I think you can stall on 2 bases for a few minutes while teching to HT. You will be behind, but not out of the game. I'm not saying 2 robos should be standard, but if 80% of zerg on ladder are doing the stephano build which I think is the case, why not trying to take advantage of it? You can't get both a decent stalker count and storm on 2 bases, and if you already blindly invested into 2 blind robos and immortals that do nothing at all i doubt you can even get just the stalkers with blink at a decent timing. | ||
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Yuffie
132 Posts
HF analizing, i am 1100+ master http://www.mediafire.com/?dyeboe0tvo1j5mm http://www.mediafire.com/?4h7p74spv7oyix3 | ||
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UmbeXCII
Italy69 Posts
On March 26 2012 19:30 Yuffie wrote: ok, here would be another build that might have potential. its yufFE into fast 3 Nexus @ 6:00. HF analizing, i am 1100+ master http://www.mediafire.com/?dyeboe0tvo1j5mm http://www.mediafire.com/?4h7p74spv7oyix3 If you have more replay of you doing this please post them...i think it's an interesting build even though it feels like you're cheesing economically. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
PS: You don't need double robo to get out 5 immortals, you just need to chrono the robo constantly. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On March 25 2012 12:24 kcdc wrote: It might be able to. Really depends on the game and the positioning of the 4th base. Take Antiga, for example. If P can get near-maxed by 13:30 and dominate the middle of the map until Z has broodlords, then Z can't take a fourth till hive tech on Antiga. Tough to say what's possible because we haven't yet seen a competitive game where P hits 140 supply by 12:00. Zerg will scout Toss's fast thid and can choose to go for a fast fourth ( unless he goes pressure to kill toss's third ). But I mean, there's nothing preventing Zerg from taking a fourth, and even a fifth, before the 10' mark right ? And as toss you can't put pressure back on Zerg before you got your near-200 army in the 13'-14' range. I'm on the opinion that you can't out-greed a Zerg, and that if you try to play greedily by taking a third at 7'-8', Zerg can play even more greedily and there's nothing you'll be able to do about it. But I may.. I *hope* to be proven wrong ! | ||
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XxMulexX
Canada57 Posts
Yes indeed, you won't be able to defend 3 bases with 3 gates against mutas. But if the zerg is going mutalisks, I think you can stall on 2 bases for a few minutes while teching to HT. You will be behind, but not out of the game. I'm not saying 2 robos should be standard, but if 80% of zerg on ladder are doing the stephano build which I think is the case, why not trying to take advantage of it? What you are doing is typical theory crafting which is not really realistic. If you're going to change your tech path significantly, you have to make sure it's safe against a wide variety of zerg strategies, and double robo off 2 base is absolutely terrible vs a muta centric zerg. It's already a struggle for protoss to limit the damage when they invest all their resources into blink, upgraded stalkers, cannons and HTs, so there's no way you're going to win against a decent zerg on 3 fully saturated bases going ling/muta while investing to much into a tech path that is useless against that composition. You can't just propose X composition simply because it seems good vs Y composition, it's more complicated than that. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On March 26 2012 19:30 Yuffie wrote: ok, here would be another build that might have potential. its yufFE into fast 3 Nexus @ 6:00. HF analizing, i am 1100+ master http://www.mediafire.com/?dyeboe0tvo1j5mm http://www.mediafire.com/?4h7p74spv7oyix3 Nice. I've been doing a similar build, except my third is a bit more delayed ( I take it around 8'30 ). 6' sounds quite greedy, but that's lovely, will study the replays  | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On March 26 2012 20:48 XxMulexX wrote: What you are doing is typical theory crafting which is not really realistic. If you're going to change your tech path significantly, you have to make sure it's safe against a wide variety of zerg strategies, and double robo off 2 base is absolutely terrible vs a muta centric zerg. What zerg goes straight to muta after opening 3 base though? That dies to most any x gate pushes. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13410 Posts
On March 26 2012 21:06 aebriol wrote: What zerg goes straight to muta after opening 3 base though? That dies to most any x gate pushes. One that sees double robot immortals and knows you don't have the gateway support to kill him if he rushes mutalisks. If he loses a base but has mutas and you can't kill him the Zerg wins. The tech investment in double robot puts you behind against mutas especially since alongside mutas is a lot of lings. Lings and mutas kill immortals very efficiently. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On March 26 2012 21:35 ZeromuS wrote: One that sees double robot immortals and knows you don't have the gateway support to kill him if he rushes mutalisks. If he loses a base but has mutas and you can't kill him the Zerg wins. The tech investment in double robot puts you behind against mutas especially since alongside mutas is a lot of lings. Lings and mutas kill immortals very efficiently. Mmm ... well ... As a zerg on 3 base, your lair is done around 8:30 with most common timings (2 gas at 6:00, first 100 gas to lair). Spire 100 sec, mutas 33, total 133, first mutas are out at roughly 11:00 (can be 10:43 if commits, and everything lines up perfectly). If you can kill the push with sentry zealot immortal with pure lings, by all means, you win, but that's pretty damn hard. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On March 26 2012 20:47 Nyast wrote: Zerg will scout Toss's fast thid and can choose to go for a fast fourth ( unless he goes pressure to kill toss's third ). But I mean, there's nothing preventing Zerg from taking a fourth, and even a fifth, before the 10' mark right ? And as toss you can't put pressure back on Zerg before you got your near-200 army in the 13'-14' range. I'm on the opinion that you can't out-greed a Zerg, and that if you try to play greedily by taking a third at 7'-8', Zerg can play even more greedily and there's nothing you'll be able to do about it. But I may.. I *hope* to be proven wrong ! Nyast, how can the zerg afford to saturate both bases? He can take a fourth for sure without much hindrance, but cannot immediately saturate it (80+ drones) because a fast third opens up a v strong +2/+3 blink stalker/ variant thereof timing (We saw this happen in DRG vs JYP, though JYP lost his third, his counter was too strong. Now imagine that counter backed by the third). Not to mention the necessary spine walls that will be needed to guard it. It would seem that a fast fourth is not a viable option with roaches, since they eat up supply so you cant saturate your bases, it would only work with ling muta/ ling infestor out of which only ling muta keep the protoss back on his side of the map. PS: I absolutely think fast fourths cannot be touched by the protoss, but also that the zerg cannot afford to be too greedy when he takes it, which if he does should mostly be for gas income to go straight into hive. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On March 26 2012 22:07 chestnutcc wrote: Nyast, how can the zerg afford to saturate both bases? He can take a fourth for sure without much hindrance, but cannot immediately saturate it (80+ drones) because a fast third opens up a v strong +2/+3 blink stalker/ variant thereof timing (We saw this happen in DRG vs JYP, though JYP lost his third, his counter was too strong. Now imagine that counter backed by the third). Not to mention the necessary spine walls that will be needed to guard it. It would seem that a fast fourth is not a viable option with roaches, since they eat up supply so you cant saturate your bases, it would only work with ling muta/ ling infestor out of which only ling muta keep the protoss back on his side of the map. PS: I absolutely think fast fourths cannot be touched by the protoss, but also that the zerg cannot afford to be too greedy when he takes it, which if he does should mostly be for gas income to go straight into hive. I don't see where you disagree with the previous poster; you guys seem to be in agreement from what I see. I didn't see the game you're talking about but I heard DRG suicided mass roaches to kill the 3rd. Zerg should be able to defend against mass blink stalker pushes with infestor tech or keep the protoss in his base with mutas if he went for either of these common "defensive" tech routes. The only reason a blink stalker attack should work is if Zerg doesn't have the proper tech or comes out behind from a pressure like DRG did. | ||
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