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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 24 2012 13:16 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:57 RaNgeD wrote:Alright so I took some of your advice kcdc, and I had a bit of insight of my own and this is the build that I came up with. It seems quite safe and I like the speed of the 3rd base (7:45~ish) In this replay the only mistake I saw was the fact that I didn't add my twilight on time, so my +2 is just a little late. Let me know what you think, and also if there are some ways to refine the build even more. Note: I like to refine my builds in single player, so this isn't against anyone, but still, it's pretty realistic of how my game would look if the zerg takes 3 hatch. http://drop.sc/140884 Looks very solid. 17 nexus 17 forge is a little risky, but people do it. You might consider cutting the initial zealot and poking with the first stalker. You also made an extra pylon before your third that I don't think you needed. Cutting the zealot and starting the nexus before that pylon would get the third down to 7:00 or so instead of 7:20. You'll have to play around with the timing on the third gas. It might be worth getting the third nexus first--I haven't had a chance to play lately, so I'm not really sure. I'd also take a long look at cutting hallucination. What information does it give you that you can't get any other way, and how would you react differently with that information? Given the scouting information you can get from seeing the fast third and poking with a stalker, what would you see with hallucination that would cause a deviation in your build? The roach timing and muta play would be the most common, and I think the response with this build would actually be the same. I guess you might deviate for infestors, but could you identify infestor tech in time for a planned deviation without hallucination? I'm not sure either way--it's just something to think about. 138 supply with +2, blink and robo at 12:00 is very impressive. That's a little wind-aided with the 17/17 opening, but the fact that a supply that high with the right composition and tech is possible is encouraging. I wonder what the limit will be. I also like that you stuck with just 2 cannons to defend your third. I think over-cannoning is a tempting mistake that can come back to bite you when Z has multiple attack paths. With just 2 cannons tho, you should make sure they're set back at least 1 tile from your gateway wall (and preferably farther) so that roaches have to fight through your wall and forcefields to fire on your detection from over your wall. I think you did this, but it's a note for anyone else who wants to try it. Lastly, yes, your blink and +2 was slightly late, but you had the resources for twilight earlier--you just forgot about it for a few seconds. Oh, and another little trick that might be useful on some maps--since your third should be saturated before the roach/ling pressure starts and you're not walking immortals through your wall at your natural, you have the option to complete the wall at your natural when you confirm that the roach/ling pressure is coming. This would make sure lings don't sneak into your main on a map like Cloud Kingdom. It'd be less helpful against a roach runby.
Yeah, on antiga i'll usually do 14 forge 17 nexus, or something like that is much safer. I like making both the zealot and the stalker because it gives my army some beef. I'm dropping my 3rd nexus before warpgate is done. So at maximum I can have 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 2 sentries. With further testing I definitely think cutting the zealot could be good, but here I was just trying to be safe. ( but I still 17 nexus, haha )
About cutting hallucination: I think that it's a bad idea. I think it's possible to hold the 3rd against pretty much anything to start; but if the zerg skips the roach timing and goes for infestor pretty fast you would need to know in time in order to throw down a robo bay and possibly a 2nd robo. It's also possible that they could try to go muta since your bases are spread apart. Of course with this build you have so many stalkers that it's actually not a problem, but you would still need storm. I suppose it's possible that you could scout with the first obs that comes out of the robo. But for me that's really late and i'm not comfortable playing blind for that long. The first thing I look for when I scout with hallucination is how many gas my opponent took. If he took 6, then you must start thinking about muta or infestor.
I like the way that you are looking at it though. There are always some very slight changes that can end up making a huge difference in the long run. 2 cannons is perfect for Antiga, but I think on other maps it's possible that you will need more. It just really depends on how far away your 3rd is from your natural, but in any case I definitely think 6-7 stalkers behind the wall are much better than a few cannons.
One thing I hadn't thought about in this build is that my immortals won't be getting stuck behind my wall (since we aren't making them at all)
This is awesome :D
I'll continue to use the build on ladder and continue to refine the build. It already works, now it's just about finding the small flaws in it.
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Why would you 17/17 as you run into a supply block anyways? There is no real point in doing it as you don't get more probes by going 17/17 anyway. 16/16 is strictly better really unless you go second pylon before forge which is not so common. Having the forge a bit earlier doesn't mean you need to make the cannon faster but it can be useful just in case they do go for 6 lings and pressure straight away.
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Okay, here are a few more examples. I played some customs with a friend and also played on ladder. Although it was close at some point, I never did get busted at my 3rd. The times when it was close were small mistakes by me.
http://drop.sc/141197
http://drop.sc/141196
http://drop.sc/141195
http://drop.sc/141194
Hydras seem to be a pretty good counter, but if they go hydra and it fails, they are even further behind than if they just went roaches imo.
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On March 24 2012 21:33 RaNgeD wrote:Okay, here are a few more examples. I played some customs with a friend and also played on ladder. Although it was close at some point, I never did get busted at my 3rd. The times when it was close were small mistakes by me. http://drop.sc/141197http://drop.sc/141196http://drop.sc/141195http://drop.sc/141194Hydras seem to be a pretty good counter, but if they go hydra and it fails, they are even further behind than if they just went roaches imo.
Thx for the games, that's an interesting build. Isn't it similar to what WhiteRa often does ?
In game 2, you almost lose your third to mass lings, but for some reason your opponent doesn't focus the nexus ( 9'20 ) and loses all his lings. He reaches 75 drones soon after. So I'm a bit worried, cause if he had succeeded, he would have had a third and +20 workers ahead of you. Is there any way to guarantee you won't lose your third to 40 lings ? At 9' when his rush arrived, you only had 8 units and could have easily been surrounded.. it looks very dangerous to me and I'm borderline thinking holding the third is impossible if Zerg doesn't mess up 
Another scenario that I would like to see studied is the case where Zerg goes even more greedier, takes a 4th as soon as he spots your early third, and techs directly to brood lords / infestors. Like, the minimum amount of roaches/infestors required to hold your army, while teching and keeping resources to go to brood lords asap.
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Forgive my noob opinion,
but perhaps we could engineer a new all-in specifically for this stephano build off of FFE. I know zergs been complaining tons about ff at ramp, perhaps a variation on that pvz sentry cheese from a while back (something like 7 sentries 4 zealots 3 gates at 8 min).
If the build becomes unsafe even vs a FFE, we can at least force them to slow it down.
As a humorous thought, can we hold our nat with a mothership at 11 min? cannons/stalkers ff the overseer and nothing shoots up.
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On March 24 2012 23:24 Nyast wrote:Thx for the games, that's an interesting build. Isn't it similar to what WhiteRa often does ? In game 2, you almost lose your third to mass lings, but for some reason your opponent doesn't focus the nexus ( 9'20 ) and loses all his lings. He reaches 75 drones soon after. So I'm a bit worried, cause if he had succeeded, he would have had a third and +20 workers ahead of you. Is there any way to guarantee you won't lose your third to 40 lings ? At 9' when his rush arrived, you only had 8 units and could have easily been surrounded.. it looks very dangerous to me and I'm borderline thinking holding the third is impossible if Zerg doesn't mess up Another scenario that I would like to see studied is the case where Zerg goes even more greedier, takes a 4th as soon as he spots your early third, and techs directly to brood lords / infestors. Like, the minimum amount of roaches/infestors required to hold your army, while teching and keeping resources to go to brood lords asap.
I haven't seen any of white-ra's games, but if you can link me to a replay of a VOD of him doing something similar, I would be happy to check it out.
As far as the game where my opponent makes a ton of lings and tries to bust me, I agree that he could have easily sniped the nexus if he focused. But at the same time, it wouldn't have been an issue for me, had I put my sentries/zealot on the high ground of my 3rd base. If I do that I can easily forcefield and stall for another warp-in. Plus my additional 3 gateways will be done. So I will have 6 more units, and should have no problem holding.
If you notice in the game, after his ling attack, he indeed does go up to 73 drones. But he doesn't have any units, and if I would have recognized that I could have easily timed an attack to kill him as my +2 weapons and obs come out. It would have hit well before he had infestors, the game should have ended there 
I don't like how it sounds when you say "if the zerg plays perfect." Well this is starcraft, and yes we are all striving for perfection, but we are all human and it's impossible to play perfect every game. If I play perfect, I can hold this fast 3rd every time. And that's the beauty of it.
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Great reps, Ranged. The one on Antiga where he went for the SuperRoach build was a thing of beauty. As soon as blink finished, his attack was effectively over.
I think with this build, you have a bigger, more mobile force than you're used to, and you wound up playing more passively than you needed to. You should experiment with pushing out and harassing at 12 or 13 minutes. It might get you killed for a while, but it's good to know what you can get away with. In theory blink stalkers in that number should be able retreat unless you run them into infestors.
I'm so rusty after not playing all week, but I wanted to try running through it against the AI:
http://drop.sc/141267
With 15/15, first gas on 23, second gas on 25 and cutting the zealot, I had 400 minerals to start a nexus at 6:45. Compared to what you're doing, I'm getting my 2nd gas earlier and my 3rd gas later--after my nexus. The total gas mined is probably about the same, but it lets me get my nexus a little sooner. It also lets me start +1 weapons earlier which could be good against speedling harass on the third.
I forgot hallucination, but I think I'll probably do a hallucination-less version of the build at least initially. You should know whether the roach attack is coming by the gathering hoard at your door at 11 minutes, so if nothing's there, you know it's mutas or infestors, and in either case, templar are a good response. With just 5 sentries and an option to scout the front in the midgame with blink stalkers, it's tough to tell whether hallucination is worth it.
I was banking chronoboost and supply blocking myself left and right, and I still hit 141 supply with blink, +2 and an obs at 12 min. I think with better play, 150+ supply is possible, but in a real game, you'll usually pylon block Z's natural and lose it which slows the build down slightly.
This seems like it really should be reliably safe against the SuperRoach timing. It'll still require very sharp play, but it seems like it may be an answer.
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On March 25 2012 00:45 Artisian wrote:
Forgive my noob opinion,
but perhaps we could engineer a new all-in specifically for this stephano build off of FFE. I know zergs been complaining tons about ff at ramp, perhaps a variation on that pvz sentry cheese from a while back (something like 7 sentries 4 zealots 3 gates at 8 min).
If the build becomes unsafe even vs a FFE, we can at least force them to slow it down.
As a humorous thought, can we hold our nat with a mothership at 11 min? cannons/stalkers ff the overseer and nothing shoots up.
Fast 3rd builds are themselves a designed counter to Protoss FFE. When someone says "Stephano-style" they mean adopting his gas / tech timings into the already standard 3-hatch before gas.
Stephano's timings allow Zergs to survive the allins that were plaguing them before, sentry / immortal still causes a bit of trouble, and blink allins can be tricky to deal with, but generally everything is becoming more and more holdable.
The counter to this build is to not FFE, otherwise the Protoss simply has to practice holding roach / ling aggression and getting down their 3rd.
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nice to see this thread back on topic for what it was made for. Cant wait to dl some of these reps to make my fellow zergs cry toss OP :D
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Ranged, first of all, awesome build...I have one very specific question though. In the game on Antiga where protosser goes for mass ling pressure, your +1 seems a bit late. Assuming you have a stalker on the map to spot for this and prompt you to make zealots, which make great use of +1 vs lings, is there a reason why you prioritise your first sentry over +1 ? To me it seems like if he took his gas/-es slightly earlier, you might be in a lot of trouble. You might be able to protect your sentries for a long time with FFs, but having +1 could potentially put you far ahead because you could engage easier...
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17/17 allows you to constantly chrono as soon as its available. And you dont get supply blocked if you time it correctly. Its safe on all maps vs any normal pool timing as well and is my favourite pvz opener. Ofc I go 14 forge into nexus if i cant scout.
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On March 25 2012 02:13 Ladabaz wrote:
Ranged, first of all, awesome build...I have one very specific question though. In the game on Antiga where protosser goes for mass ling pressure, your +1 seems a bit late. Assuming you have a stalker on the map to spot for this and prompt you to make zealots, which make great use of +1 vs lings, is there a reason why you prioritise your first sentry over +1 ? To me it seems like if he took his gas/-es slightly earlier, you might be in a lot of trouble. You might be able to protect your sentries for a long time with FFs, but having +1 could potentially put you far ahead because you could engage easier...
Thank you
And no, there isn't a specific reason that I get +1 after my sentry, other than the fact that I don't have the gas and I want to be continiously building units out of my gateway until wargate is done, since those will be my only units to defend my 3rd nexus (as my nexus starts before wg is finished)
If you get the 2nd gas a little faster, you can definitely have +1 faster and it will solve this issue. The build stll has a lot of small refinements to be made before it is 100% fluid, as i've only been messing with it for a few days. Also if I remember correctly, I do chrono my +1 out 1-2 times for it to finish with my twilight council. But if I start it sooner I potentially save some energy. Good observation.
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Have you guys been watching MLG so far? There have been some decent PvZ's where the Protoss has managed to take a quick third and a hold, but there have also been few where they've been crushed. For instance + Show Spoiler +MC tried to take a third off a ton of gateways and blinkstalkers while teching to colossus after a somewhat failed 4 gate +1 pressure. Crazymoving just stopped drones and did a roach/hydra timing that MC just couldn't hold.
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Too bad we dont get to see the games of inori vs stephano, but hopefully reps will be released. Looking at score screen, Inori did an 8 gate +1 attack, then into macro I guess cause game lasted 20 minutes. Seems like in order to beat this kind of style protoss needs to do a lot of damage with their 2 base before expanding and going into macro stages.
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On March 25 2012 07:48 Vetrocide wrote:
Too bad we dont get to see the games of inori vs stephano, but hopefully reps will be released. Looking at score screen, Inori did an 8 gate +1 attack, then into macro I guess cause game lasted 20 minutes. Seems like in order to beat this kind of style protoss needs to do a lot of damage with their 2 base before expanding and going into macro stages.
When they release the replays I'm planning on going through every game for my own benefit, and to look at the state of the game for PvX matchups. If I find something good I'll surely save some people the time and post it here.
I've been tinkering around with the build that's been thrown around a bit in this thread, and I really like it so far. I'd like to see what some good Zergs have to say about it.
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MLG Spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Inori apparently beat stephano in the LB. Anyone got a look at the game?
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To second Nyast's question above, how does the fast 3rd fare against a Zerg who does not commit to pressuring the third? Or just fakes pressure while taking a 4th (even a 5th)? I'm not a good P player, but it seems to me that the lack of early pressure means that Zerg can tech faster to Infestor/BL and has to merely defend any P pressure around the 12 minute mark.
Is this correct?
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Inori beats Stephano! GET THOSE REPLAYS!
PS: TT I wanted Stephano to advance
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On March 25 2012 08:07 aZealot wrote:
To second Nyast's question above, how does the fast 3rd fare against a Zerg who does not commit to taking the third? Or just fakes pressure while taking a 4th (even a 5th)? I'm not a good P player, but it seems to me that the lack of early pressure means that Zerg can tech faster to Infestor/BL and merely defend any P pressure around the 12 minute mark.
Is this correct?
Couldn't you see what he is doing with your hallucination, and then punish a really fast 4th by him?
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DRG vs. JYP on Taldarim Altar (Game2)
drg maxxed roaches at 12-13 with burrow attacks the third on taldarim, and also goes into the natural to force a split. Trading all roaches against economy/army
jyp is forced into an counter all-in, thanks to high enough stalker could + good blink micro, it snow balls into his favor somehow.
this replay needs to be analysed guys!!!!
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EPT
