EPTThis may have been discussed before, but what makes the +1 zealot timing not a "good" way to play in the current meta-game? Even if you don't take out the third you can still do significant damage by preventing drone production as far as I can tell.
[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 40
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
This may have been discussed before, but what makes the +1 zealot timing not a "good" way to play in the current meta-game? Even if you don't take out the third you can still do significant damage by preventing drone production as far as I can tell. | ||
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scsnow
Slovenia515 Posts
How did Socke win vs Ret? | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 24 2012 09:49 happyness wrote: I just watched Huk vs Violet on Tal Darim(MLG). Huk went for +1 zealot aggression. He didn't kill the Hatch, but it significantly reduced the amount of drones Violet was able to make. I don't know if violet doesn't know about the stephano style, or if he just played sloppy, or if he over reacted, or if Huk did anything special. This may have been discussed before, but what makes the +1 zealot timing not a "good" way to play in the current meta-game? Even if you don't take out the third you can still do significant damage by preventing drone production as far as I can tell. I'd have to see the particular game, but in general, Z can have roaches for the timing, and roaches on creep are pretty good against zealots. The timing is good tho if you catch Z off guard. It sounds like Huk may have caught Violet slightly off balance and pressed the advantage for a while. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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Thesper
United Kingdom37 Posts
On March 24 2012 09:49 happyness wrote: I just watched Huk vs Violet on Tal Darim(MLG). Huk went for +1 zealot aggression. He didn't kill the Hatch, but it significantly reduced the amount of drones Violet was able to make. I don't know if violet doesn't know about the stephano style, or if he just played sloppy, or if he over reacted, or if Huk did anything special. This may have been discussed before, but what makes the +1 zealot timing not a "good" way to play in the current meta-game? Even if you don't take out the third you can still do significant damage by preventing drone production as far as I can tell. Violet got fast zergling speed and made 20-30 lings before 8 minutes in that game, before Huk did any agression, and then did nothing with them and then they all died to zealots. I think Violet lost because he intentionally tanked his economy for no obvious gain. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On March 24 2012 09:56 Thesper wrote: Violet got fast zergling speed and made 20-30 lings before 8 minutes in that game, before Huk did any agression, and then did nothing with them and then they all died to zealots. I think Violet lost because he intentionally tanked his economy for no obvious gain. Ya you're probably right. I guess that game wasn't the best of examples. I don't know why violet, a player of such high caliber, would do that, though. | ||
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Complete
United States1864 Posts
On March 24 2012 10:11 happyness wrote: Ya you're probably right. I guess that game wasn't the best of examples. I don't know why violet, a player of such high caliber, would do that, though. You have to do things like that sometimes. Punish greedy early few unit pushes, possibly get a runby, try to punish a super early 3rd (Kind of what kcdc/other people are talking about trying in this thread) | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On March 24 2012 10:11 happyness wrote: Ya you're probably right. I guess that game wasn't the best of examples. I don't know why violet, a player of such high caliber, would do that, though. Because Huk 8 gated him the game before, which he would have won if he had continued aggression instead of falling back and try to take his third, after taking down the third of Violet and pushing his natural. You can't hold a 8 gate given equal skill with a normal 3 hatch droning style. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On March 24 2012 09:49 happyness wrote: This may have been discussed before, but what makes the +1 zealot timing not a "good" way to play in the current meta-game? Even if you don't take out the third you can still do significant damage by preventing drone production as far as I can tell. It's not good if you fall back on taking your third, and teching, because you allow the zerg to drone up and get enough ahead so he can punish you. But if you do it MC style - follow up with 8 gate, 7 gate blink, or similar - it's great. | ||
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Korson
United States47 Posts
I thought this should be mentioned, because Socke's build was nearly identical to the one Ranged posted. Socke still lost pretty convincingly. Unless, Ranged's 3rd coming a minute earlier might make a difference. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
1) People opt for gateway expand 2) People who don't understand the benefits of stargate after core + phoenix play I'm going to stress it out over and over the benefits of the phoenix play: 1) Scouting - Keeping tabs on the zerg, check what he REALLY is going for. Your probe/zealot/obs/stalkers WOULD NOT, I repeat WOULD NOT be able to fully scout the zerg base frequently as you think. 2) Queen sniping - The only way to keep a 3-base zerg production from doubling yours is to snipe queens with phoenixes frequently throughout the game until the zerg decides to build more than 4 spores. 3) Overlord hunting - unprotected overlords are just asking to be killed, however queens take priority. Killing stray overlords keeps the zerg in the dark against drop routes 4) Map awareness - you will know a) how many units he has (unless he has burrow), b) unit composition, c) drone saturation. You can also contest Xel naga towers better by killing those stray lings. Things to note: - You do not need to commit yourself to 2 stargates. 1 stargate is enough to pump out 5 phoenixes and additional ones very quickly already. The 2nd stargate stalls your tech to robo or archives too long and you wont have the units you want in time to deal with the zerg swarm. - Very gas intensive, you need to take your third geyser once cybercore finishes in order to keep up with your tech paths, you would want the 4th geyser if your planning on a colossi 2 base push - Air weapons +1. Start air weapons once you reach a count of 5-6, you will need it because the zerg will be getting carapace +1 soon and you need to keep up with the speed of killing queens. - Your ground army should be preparing for an attack once you killed stray overlords, claimed xel-naga towers, +1 ground weapons and charge is nearly complete. Your phoenixes would have scouted whether the natural or the third has less defenses. - If you see too many spines/spores being planted. Take your third and don't commit on the attack, it's not entirely efficient to bust down 4 spines with ling/roach support with gateway army, preserving your units for the deathball is more important than trading it away so early. - You need to multitask, having your phoenixes inactive even for 30 seconds is not good, keep them hunting! | ||
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HeyJude
United States157 Posts
On March 24 2012 11:26 Zariel wrote: I still don't understand why: 1) People opt for gateway expand 2) People who don't understand the benefits of stargate after core + phoenix play I'm going to stress it out over and over the benefits of the phoenix play: 1) Scouting - Keeping tabs on the zerg, check what he REALLY is going for. Your probe/zealot/obs/stalkers WOULD NOT, I repeat WOULD NOT be able to fully scout the zerg base frequently as you think. 2) Queen sniping - The only way to keep a 3-base zerg production from doubling yours is to snipe queens with phoenixes frequently throughout the game until the zerg decides to build more than 4 spores. 3) Overlord hunting - unprotected overlords are just asking to be killed, however queens take priority. Killing stray overlords keeps the zerg in the dark against drop routes 4) Map awareness - you will know a) how many units he has (unless he has burrow), b) unit composition, c) drone saturation. You can also contest Xel naga towers better by killing those stray lings. Things to note: - You do not need to commit yourself to 2 stargates. 1 stargate is enough to pump out 5 phoenixes and additional ones very quickly already. The 2nd stargate stalls your tech to robo or archives too long and you wont have the units you want in time to deal with the zerg swarm. - Very gas intensive, you need to take your third geyser once cybercore finishes in order to keep up with your tech paths, you would want the 4th geyser if your planning on a colossi 2 base push - Air weapons +1. Start air weapons once you reach a count of 5-6, you will need it because the zerg will be getting carapace +1 soon and you need to keep up with the speed of killing queens. - Your ground army should be preparing for an attack once you killed stray overlords, claimed xel-naga towers, +1 ground weapons and charge is nearly complete. Your phoenixes would have scouted whether the natural or the third has less defenses. - If you see too many spines/spores being planted. Take your third and don't commit on the attack, it's not entirely efficient to bust down 4 spines with ling/roach support with gateway army, preserving your units for the deathball is more important than trading it away so early. - You need to multitask, having your phoenixes inactive even for 30 seconds is not good, keep them hunting! So do you build any void rays? I usually do so I can try to snipe the 3rd but voids take so much micro, I generally find phoenixs alone much easier to keep alive. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
On March 24 2012 11:53 Alejandrisha wrote: i might start cutting the void ray as well. even though i like it for clearing towers, it helps get the gates, robo and +1 up much more quickly Whenever I see Naniwa do the build he goes strictly Phoenix, I think if you make a void ray you should go for at least two in order to have any sort of harassment actually be a threat, also it helps to have one just sit at his potential fourth and fifth to deny. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:57 RaNgeD wrote: Alright so I took some of your advice kcdc, and I had a bit of insight of my own and this is the build that I came up with. It seems quite safe and I like the speed of the 3rd base (7:45~ish) In this replay the only mistake I saw was the fact that I didn't add my twilight on time, so my +2 is just a little late. Let me know what you think, and also if there are some ways to refine the build even more. Note: I like to refine my builds in single player, so this isn't against anyone, but still, it's pretty realistic of how my game would look if the zerg takes 3 hatch. http://drop.sc/140884 Looks very solid. 17 nexus 17 forge is a little risky, but people do it. You might consider cutting the initial zealot and poking with the first stalker. You also made an extra pylon before your third that I don't think you needed. Cutting the zealot and starting the nexus before that pylon would get the third down to 7:00 or so instead of 7:20. You'll have to play around with the timing on the third gas. It might be worth getting the third nexus first--I haven't had a chance to play lately, so I'm not really sure. I'd also take a long look at cutting hallucination. What information does it give you that you can't get any other way, and how would you react differently with that information? Given the scouting information you can get from seeing the fast third and poking with a stalker, what would you see with hallucination that would cause a deviation in your build? The roach timing and muta play would be the most common, and I think the response with this build would actually be the same. I guess you might deviate for infestors, but could you identify infestor tech in time for a planned deviation without hallucination? I'm not sure either way--it's just something to think about. 138 supply with +2, blink and robo at 12:00 is very impressive. That's a little wind-aided with the 17/17 opening, but the fact that a supply that high with the right composition and tech is possible is encouraging. I wonder what the limit will be. I also like that you stuck with just 2 cannons to defend your third. I think over-cannoning is a tempting mistake that can come back to bite you when Z has multiple attack paths. With just 2 cannons tho, you should make sure they're set back at least 1 tile from your gateway wall (and preferably farther) so that roaches have to fight through your wall and forcefields to fire on your detection from over your wall. I think you did this, but it's a note for anyone else who wants to try it. Lastly, yes, your blink and +2 was slightly late, but you had the resources for twilight earlier--you just forgot about it for a few seconds. Oh, and another little trick that might be useful on some maps--since your third should be saturated before the roach/ling pressure starts and you're not walking immortals through your wall at your natural, you have the option to complete the wall at your natural when you confirm that the roach/ling pressure is coming. This would make sure lings don't sneak into your main on a map like Cloud Kingdom. It'd be less helpful against a roach runby. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On March 24 2012 13:16 kcdc wrote: Looks very solid. 17 nexus 17 forge is a little risky, but people do it. You might consider cutting the initial zealot and poking with the first stalker. You also made an extra pylon before your third that I don't think you needed. Cutting the zealot and starting the nexus before that pylon would get the third down to 7:00 or so instead of 7:20. You'll have to play around with the timing on the third gas. It might be worth getting the third nexus first--I haven't had a chance to play lately, so I'm not really sure. I'd also take a long look at cutting hallucination. What information does it give you that you can't get any other way, and how would you react differently with that information? Given the scouting information you can get from seeing the fast third and poking with a stalker, what would you see with hallucination that would cause a deviation in your build? The roach timing and muta play would be the most common, and I think the response with this build would actually be the same. I guess you might deviate for infestors, but could you identify infestor tech in time for a planned deviation without hallucination? I'm not sure either way--it's just something to think about. 138 supply with +2, blink and robo at 12:00 is very impressive. That's a little wind-aided with the 17/17 opening, but the fact that a supply that high with the right composition and tech is possible is encouraging. I wonder what the limit will be. I also like that you stuck with just 2 cannons to defend your third. I think over-cannoning is a tempting mistake that can come back to bite you when Z has multiple attack paths. With just 2 cannons tho, you should make sure they're set back at least 1 tile from your gateway wall (and preferably farther) so that roaches have to fight through your wall and forcefields to fire on your detection from over your wall. I think you did this, but it's a note for anyone else who wants to try it. Lastly, yes, your blink and +2 was slightly late, but you had the resources for twilight earlier--you just forgot about it for a few seconds. Oh, and another little trick that might be useful on some maps--since your third should be saturated before the roach/ling pressure starts and you're not walking immortals through your wall at your natural, you have the option to complete the wall at your natural when you confirm that the roach/ling pressure is coming. This would make sure lings don't sneak into your main on a map like Cloud Kingdom. It'd be less helpful against a roach runby. I don't think 17 nexus 17 forge is safe on Antiga with that wallin even versus 14 pool. By safe I mean, 4 lings can still run up your ramp into your main before the cannon finishes. | ||
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Turo
Canada333 Posts
On March 24 2012 14:41 NrGmonk wrote: I don't think 17 nexus 17 forge is safe on Antiga with that wallin even versus 14 pool. By safe I mean, 4 lings can still run up your ramp into your main before the cannon finishes. I do the 17 nexus 17 forge almost every game vs zerg. In order to defend <15 pool, you need to have 4-5 probes waiting by your cannon @ ~75% cannon. then you back and forth a couple times, then it's business as usual. I don't know if the wasted mining time is worth it or not though. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Turo
Canada333 Posts
On March 24 2012 14:59 kcdc wrote: I'm agnostic on 17/17. Usually, you pylon block the natural and the lings stop to kill the block. Otherwise, you can block with probes. 15/15 is definitely safe on cross positions Antiga. 15/15 vs 17/17 isn't going to change a whole lot. You're right. What do you mean you're agnostic about it? | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
5 phoenix at 9 mins 3rd taken at about 9 mins 12:00 min - 70 probes 1 obs 1 zealot 3 immortals 7 stalkers 5 phoenix 7 sentry 125 food, but blink finishes at about 12:10, though this could be quickened by distributing chronoboosts differently, and i had one to spare tt. +2 finishes at 12:50, but same as above, though they will invariably come later because the TC isn't as quick as ranged's variant. the build i'm using has it's surge at 12:00, going up to 150 food at 12:50 with 70 probes 1 obs 1 zealot 4 immortals 18 stalkers 5 phoenix 7 sentry. 2 cannons at third as above. One big advantage of the super early 3rd is that you can establish pylons/gates much faster, while the 9 minute third doesn't really establish its infrastructure until around 10 minutes in. And of course a 9 min third will have oversaturation on 2 bases for a stint. The big question is- establishing the 3rd earlier with only gateway units to defend, but having slightly faster blink and +2, or establishing it slightly later, but having 5 phoenix on the map and heavy gateway support shortly thereafter, but with slightly later blink/+2-- which is better? who can know O_O | ||
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