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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
United States8476 Posts
On March 23 2012 08:23 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231 Very nice. This is exactly what I was thinking would work well. Suggestions for refining: Less gas early, 3 gates before third, slightly slower twilight and blink. Reasoning: I've had Z's hatch cancel their third and roach all-in me. Z can also get metabolic boost earlier. They don't because it's not quite optimal against what P's do right now, but they will if P's start taking fast thirds. You're definitely exposed to taking big damage if you don't beef up the opening a bit. You don't really need blink or +2 until 11:30 at the earliest. That means you can start +2 weapons at 9:00 and blink at 9:30. Slow down the twilight until 8:10 so that you can slow down the gas mining even more for extra minerals. Slowing down gas mining will allow you to get some of the economy boost back from the safer 3 gate -> third. 5 sentries is a good number. Even teching a little faster than I think is optimal, you started banking gas. Start with 1 assimilator at 20 supply and take the 2nd and 3rd later. Also, you probably could cut probes at 60 or 65 if you had to for safety. That'll require a lot more testing.
I've been working on something similar to this ever since I saw Naniwa vs Ret on Daybreak at the RedBull Lan. It goes like this:
1st step is to make sure your opponent went 3 base no gas then:
Normal FFE till core
Stalker, then mass sentries from first gateway
Use stalker to clear 3rd and take map control
+1 - important to feign pressure
6:40 Nexus, pylon at 3rd
2 cannons, 4 gateways at 3rd
add 2 gas
twilight
hallucination
blink/+2
gas at 3rd immediately
add up to 8 gates in sim
Then it diverges based on hallucination scouting:
Late game is usually go up to 3 robo for triple robo colossi. Triple robo is necessary because if you only get 1-2, you max out too fast on stalkers if you macro correctly and your army will be very weak.
The difference between this and what Naniwa did are:
Naniwa did a different opening.
Naniwa took and earlier 3rd gas.
Naniwa skipped hallucination, partly because he knew what Ret was going to do, because it was a challenge.
Naniwa went for dts before his triple robo.
Looks promising, but I need to refine it a lot.
Here's my 4th attempt at it where I asked my friend to roach spam:
http://replayfu.com/r/Z9VgTr
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On March 23 2012 16:36 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 08:23 kcdc wrote:On March 23 2012 06:26 RaNgeD wrote:The build is definitely just experimental but I feel like it can be really good given some time to make some minor adjustments. Here is the link to the replay http://drop.sc/140231 Very nice. This is exactly what I was thinking would work well. Suggestions for refining: Less gas early, 3 gates before third, slightly slower twilight and blink. Reasoning: I've had Z's hatch cancel their third and roach all-in me. Z can also get metabolic boost earlier. They don't because it's not quite optimal against what P's do right now, but they will if P's start taking fast thirds. You're definitely exposed to taking big damage if you don't beef up the opening a bit. You don't really need blink or +2 until 11:30 at the earliest. That means you can start +2 weapons at 9:00 and blink at 9:30. Slow down the twilight until 8:10 so that you can slow down the gas mining even more for extra minerals. Slowing down gas mining will allow you to get some of the economy boost back from the safer 3 gate -> third. 5 sentries is a good number. Even teching a little faster than I think is optimal, you started banking gas. Start with 1 assimilator at 20 supply and take the 2nd and 3rd later. Also, you probably could cut probes at 60 or 65 if you had to for safety. That'll require a lot more testing. I've been working on something similar to this ever since I saw Naniwa vs Ret on Daybreak at the RedBull Lan. It goes like this: 1st step is to make sure your opponent went 3 base no gas then: Normal FFE till core Stalker, then mass sentries from first gateway Use stalker to clear 3rd and take map control +1 - important to feign pressure 6:40 Nexus, pylon at 3rd 2 cannons, 4 gateways at 3rd add 2 gas twilight hallucination blink/+2 gas at 3rd immediately add up to 8 gates in sim Then it diverges based on hallucination scouting: Late game is usually go up to 3 robo for triple robo colossi. Triple robo is necessary because if you only get 1-2, you max out too fast on stalkers if you macro correctly and your army will be very weak. The difference between this and what Naniwa did are: Naniwa did a different opening. Naniwa took and earlier 3rd gas. Naniwa skipped hallucination, partly because he knew what Ret was going to do, because it was a challenge. Naniwa went for dts before his triple robo. Looks promising, but I need to refine it a lot. Here's my 4th attempt at it where I asked my friend to roach spam: http://replayfu.com/r/Z9VgTr
Looks good. You were at 111 supply at 12 minutes having lost 3 cannons and a stalker (and a pylon that was faking pressure). We'll call that 120. Is it possible to hit 130+?
The timings on the twilight council and +1 weapons and +2 weapons were just about perfect, and blink could have been right on time, but I think you forgot about it for a few seconds.
I think you want the first gas at 20 supply and the 2nd at 21 or 22 supply. Delaying the third and fourth gas until after your third is perfect.
I really think FFE -> 1g -> third is an exploit of the metagame, and it's reactively punishable if Z blindly takes a single gas right after his third hatch for zergling speed at 7:30 or so. If he sees you starting a third at 6:40, he can react with 20 speedlings to harass your third at 7:30, at which time you have a stalker, 3 sentries, 1 WG and a cannon just started. Earlier gas right after third is an investment for Z, but it's not a huge investment, and they'll gladly make the trade if P starts commonly taking a fast third. I think you need at least 3g before nexus to have any pretense of a stable build.
9 gates is too many. I think Ranged was on the right track with 7, although since you're using them in your wall where they can get picked off, you might want an extra.
I'd stay on 5 gas longer. 6 gas on 3 base saturation balances you for stalker production in theory, but when you were constantly replacing cannons, gates and pylons, you really started stockpiling gas.
You also warped in a lot more sentries than I would have--if they were stalkers, you might have been able to push out against the 2-pronged attack to his rally point.
Triple robo is a little goofy, but whatever makes you happy.
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I don't get why people bother with getting blink and +2 so early. I don't see the value in them at all for defending early roach spam. Blink doesn't do much in case they are just focussing sentries, probes or buildings etc (it's not a great skill on defense) and +attack practically does nothing for stalkers vs roaches.
Upgrades in general are also not that crucial in PvZ unless zerg uses a ling style and you can always catch up by going double forge later if needed. It doesn't make sense to rush upgrades to defend a quick third. It's more logical to invest in units and robo tech instead and then focus upgrades when the third is safe.
Also some of those SUPER fast third builds are not viable imo, they can reactively be punished by just speedlings and slow roaches (just a losira type of push). Only way to secure the third safely is sentries or some higher tech, all of which you need to be going quick 3 gas for at least.
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On March 23 2012 23:48 Markwerf wrote:
I don't get why people bother with getting blink and +2 so early. I don't see the value in them at all for defending early roach spam. Blink doesn't do much in case they are just focussing sentries, probes or buildings etc (it's not a great skill on defense) and +attack practically does nothing for stalkers vs roaches.
Upgrades in general are also not that crucial in PvZ unless zerg uses a ling style and you can always catch up by going double forge later if needed. It doesn't make sense to rush upgrades to defend a quick third. It's more logical to invest in units and robo tech instead and then focus upgrades when the third is safe.
Also some of those SUPER fast third builds are not viable imo, they can reactively be punished by just speedlings and slow roaches (just a losira type of push). Only way to secure the third safely is sentries or some higher tech, all of which you need to be going quick 3 gas for at least.
+2 weapons makes stalkers kill zerglings in 3 shots instead of 4 and roaches in 10 shots instead of 11. It's pretty huge.
And blink provides a lot of utility. Monk didn't get a lot out of it in his replay, but having blink will let you do a lot of things you otherwise couldn't. For example, you can hold a tower if you have blink. You can stand in front of a choke, engage till your shields are down, then blink back and forcefield the choke. It also just helps with unit retention and dealing with any runby's that might occur during the defense.
And about the fast thirds, you don't do it unless you know they delayed gas until after 4 minutes. The Losira roach rush is totally irrelevant to this conversation.
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On March 23 2012 23:48 Markwerf wrote:
Upgrades in general are also not that crucial in PvZ unless zerg uses a ling style and you can always catch up by going double forge later if needed. It doesn't make sense to rush upgrades to defend a quick third. It's more logical to invest in units and robo tech instead and then focus upgrades when the third is safe.
Weapon upgrades make a tremendous difference in PvZ, since basically all higher tech to deal with zerg scale x2 to x3 with it i.e. immortals colossi and archons. With the old hive timings, zerg would always be behind on upgrades and with the newer early hive timings, they tech too much to get all their upgrades, either way the one big advantage toss has is in upgrades.
On March 23 2012 23:48 Markwerf wrote:
I don't get why people bother with getting blink and +2 so early. I don't see the value in them at all for defending early roach spam. Blink doesn't do much in case they are just focussing sentries, probes or buildings etc (it's not a great skill on defense) and +attack practically does nothing for stalkers vs roaches. fe.
This is a safety measure against a muta switch and also permits aggression, since it is likely they will take a fourth when they see the fast third.
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On March 24 2012 00:12 kcdc wrote:
+2 weapons makes stalkers kill zerglings in 3 shots instead of 4 and roaches in 10 shots instead of 11. It's pretty huge.
And blink provides a lot of utility. Monk didn't get a lot out of it in his replay, but having blink will let you do a lot of things you otherwise couldn't. For example, you can hold a tower if you have blink. You can stand in front of a choke, engage till your shields are down, then blink back and forcefield the choke. It also just helps with unit retention and dealing with any runby's that might occur during the defense.
And about the fast thirds, you don't do it unless you know they delayed gas until after 4 minutes. The Losira roach rush is totally irrelevant to this conversation.
i do believe +2 9 shots roaches instead of 11, which is indeed pretty huge. You can feel the difference once +2 kicks in as you start slaying roaches left and right. But roaches are just too cheap man lol
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On March 24 2012 00:54 Razultull wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 00:12 kcdc wrote:
+2 weapons makes stalkers kill zerglings in 3 shots instead of 4 and roaches in 10 shots instead of 11. It's pretty huge.
And blink provides a lot of utility. Monk didn't get a lot out of it in his replay, but having blink will let you do a lot of things you otherwise couldn't. For example, you can hold a tower if you have blink. You can stand in front of a choke, engage till your shields are down, then blink back and forcefield the choke. It also just helps with unit retention and dealing with any runby's that might occur during the defense.
And about the fast thirds, you don't do it unless you know they delayed gas until after 4 minutes. The Losira roach rush is totally irrelevant to this conversation. i do believe +2 9 shots roaches instead of 11, which is indeed pretty huge. You can feel the difference once +2 kicks in as you start slaying roaches left and right. But roaches are just too cheap man lol
Normally you 12 shot them, +1 11 shots them and +2 10 shots them... That's all very theoretic though as you often have sentries hitting too, so this critical shot argument often doesnt hold up. Your damage goes from 13 to 14 to 15 with stalkers vs roaches, it's just a very minor upgrade and instead investing that money in just more units is more logical. Blink and +2 cost 450/400 together, spending that in units will make it easier to hold that 3rd really.
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in the first post, the TE mentioned a gate expand, but he only mentioned gate expands including taking gas. That obviously harms econ. try gate expand without taking gas, (liquidpedia yufFE) . u will hit a strong 2 zealot timing, forcing zerg to go far more lings early on , then he wishes for, while having same econ and techspeed like forge FE.
Overall, i feel it weakens zergs 3 base openings slightly, but the described issue is still there, zerg can still produce way too many roaches to prevent a 3. for toss.
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On March 24 2012 01:23 Yuffie wrote:
in the first post, the TE mentioned a gate expand, but he only mentioned gate expands including taking gas. That obviously harms econ. try gate expand without taking gas, (liquidpedia yufFE) . u will hit a strong 2 zealot timing, forcing zerg to go far more lings early on , then he wishes for, while having same econ and techspeed like forge FE.
Overall, i feel it weakens zergs 3 base openings slightly, but the described issue is still there, zerg can still produce way too many roaches to prevent a 3. for toss.
I've seen WhiteRa do that a few times, although I think he goes for a 3 zealot timing. I don't have any problem with the build. It's a slightly slower FFE with a small zealot attack in the early game. I haven't analyzed whether the small zealot attack disrupts Z more than you disrupt yourself, but it seems like it's pretty close to even. In the WhiteRa vs Stephano SXSW showmatch, Stephano made a bunch of lings the first time he saw it, but WhiteRa did similar pressure 3 or 4 times in the Bo9, and each time, Stephano made less and less to defend it. The last time, I think Stephano made only 1 extra pair of lings and defended the 3 zealots with zergling and queen micro.
Anyway, the opening isn't really much different than a normal FFE. They're both strong openings, and they both face the same challenge vs 3-base mass roach.
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On March 23 2012 23:48 Markwerf wrote:
I don't get why people bother with getting blink and +2 so early. I don't see the value in them at all for defending early roach spam. Blink doesn't do much in case they are just focussing sentries, probes or buildings etc (it's not a great skill on defense) and +attack practically does nothing for stalkers vs roaches.
Upgrades in general are also not that crucial in PvZ unless zerg uses a ling style and you can always catch up by going double forge later if needed. It doesn't make sense to rush upgrades to defend a quick third. It's more logical to invest in units and robo tech instead and then focus upgrades when the third is safe.
Also some of those SUPER fast third builds are not viable imo, they can reactively be punished by just speedlings and slow roaches (just a losira type of push). Only way to secure the third safely is sentries or some higher tech, all of which you need to be going quick 3 gas for at least.
Without early blink your Stalkers will feel the pain a whole lot if the Z decides to not commit to a Roach tech and instead goes to Mutas.
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@ kcdc , 2 zealots arrive even before 3. hatch is finished, there is no way a queen would defend here. ofc i am talking about MY way to play it.. to waiting for 3 zealots like whitra does seems to be the "mistake". i usually force 8 + zerglings with that push and kill more than half the HP. ( sometimes immortal drop just finishes it ) mb i should provide some replay so you can analyze how much sense/damage it does.
cheers
replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?h8kr6r5lir827m8
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United States8476 Posts
On March 23 2012 23:35 kcdc wrote:
Looks good. You were at 111 supply at 12 minutes having lost 3 cannons and a stalker (and a pylon that was faking pressure). We'll call that 120. Is it possible to hit 130+?
I don't like the 12 minute benchmark, because shit already starts happening by then. Some of the biggest changes I would currently make to my build are more cannons and better cannon/gateway placement. Thus, that would probably lower my supply count.
The timings on the twilight council and +1 weapons and +2 weapons were just about perfect, and blink could have been right on time, but I think you forgot about it for a few seconds.
Delaying blink was semi on purpose. I knew I didn't need it immediately and prioritized sentries/+2/hallucination. However, I confidently delayed it for about a minute instead of 20ish seconds.
I think you want the first gas at 20 supply and the 2nd at 21 or 22 supply. Delaying the third and fourth gas until after your third is perfect.
Those gas timings are the ones i did. Are you saying those are the gas timings you want in general?
I really think FFE -> 1g -> third is an exploit of the metagame, and it's reactively punishable if Z blindly takes a single gas right after his third hatch for zergling speed at 7:30 or so. If he sees you starting a third at 6:40, he can react with 20 speedlings to harass your third at 7:30, at which time you have a stalker, 3 sentries, 1 WG and a cannon just started. Earlier gas right after third is an investment for Z, but it's not a huge investment, and they'll gladly make the trade if P starts commonly taking a fast third. I think you need at least 3g before nexus to have any pretense of a stable build.
9 gates is too many. I think Ranged was on the right track with 7, although since you're using them in your wall where they can get picked off, you might want an extra.
I think around 8 is the best amount for solely production, but I use all of my gateways as sim city and I think it's worth it to spend 150 minerals solely for the sim city.
I'd stay on 5 gas longer. 6 gas on 3 base saturation balances you for stalker production in theory, but when you were constantly replacing cannons, gates and pylons, you really started stockpiling gas.
I'd rather get 6 gas than 5 if I can afford it without dying in preparation for my transition.
You also warped in a lot more sentries than I would have--if they were stalkers, you might have been able to push out against the 2-pronged attack to his rally point.
Sentries are key in the defense imo. Also, I have to use 200 energy to scout, which is almost like -2 sentries worth of energy.
Triple robo is a little goofy, but whatever makes you happy.
I think it only seems goofy, because you haven't seen it before. This is partly because no one really goes that fast expand in PvZ currently. Most macro oriented builds get a robo between 6:00 and 8:30, while I get my first robo at 11:30. This is a lot of production time that I have to make up. Triple robo basically allows you to max with the same army as double robo does from an earlier expand.
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I guess we'd do the build a little differently.
I'm imaging defending the roach timing with as few sentries as possible in order to pour maximum resources into my stalker ball which would allow me to have a mobile presence on the map and pressure expansions by 14 minutes or so if the roach timing doesn't come. Ideally, I'd find some creative scouting tricks that would allow me to cut hallucination and instead scout his front with blink stalkers. Things like:
11:30 and no attack is coming -> Z must be going mutas or fast hive -> push out on map and see if there are infestors -> if so, hive -> respond with using mobility to harass expansions which teching fleet beacon
I'd probably skip colossi entirely, instead favoring stalker harass straight into lategame, whereas it sounds like you'd go triple robo to gear up for a timing before broodlords. Both options might be good.
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High Master EU Protoss here. As i am a very macro, passive oriented player most of the time the ideas here really inspired me. So i gave it a shot and ended up with something like this. (Vs Mid Master teammate)
http://drop.sc/140848
Pretty sloppy game overall, but i feel like i got the essence of it. Tell me what you guys think!
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naniwa vs drg coming up next @MLG
if nani cant do it, noone can.
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The only chance anyone has at winning PvZ vs a competent Z is to do some crazy 2 base all in.
PvZ looks a little like this:
Gate Expand and your behind by a lot
FFE and you give up all map control, are still economically behind unless you do a zealot push and he is under prepared. You then try to take your 3rd and he crushes you as you move out from behind your wall with Roaches. Say your 3rd actually gets up (somehow), Its feels so very unsafe and your trapped inside the triangle between main, natural and third trying to deflect zergling counters whilst the zerg has free reign. He expands 3 more times, techs to GGLords and wins.
This match-up is an up hill stuggle from the very beginning. Protosss has to play PERFECTLY to have a chance.
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On March 24 2012 07:38 scsnow wrote:
naniwa vs drg coming up next @MLG
if nani cant do it, noone can.
i guess gateway expand isn't the solution 8x
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On March 24 2012 07:38 scsnow wrote:
naniwa vs drg coming up next @MLG
if nani cant do it, noone can.
naniwa isn't on the same level as DRG... you're speaking as if naniwa is the best toss in the world.
also, that is why protoss should never gateway expand (naniwa vs drg game 1)
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Everyone convinced that gate expands don't work vs this?
edit: Everyone convinced gate expands shouldn't work at all?
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EPT
