[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 45

There are various styles in FFE. Many would agree Nexus first is the best one if you can get away with it. However, Gateway timing seems to be less explored by Protoss. If you go Nexus, Forge, 2nd Pylon, Gateway, Cannon, then Gateway timing is exactly 3min25sec. By placing cannon before Gateway, you delay Gateway by 15sec and 3min40sec is the timing for Gateway. Delaying Gateway 15sec means 15sec later Cyber Core, Warpgate Research, Stargate, everything. On the ohter hand, skipping the 2nd pylon and throwing down Gateway before saves you about 5 sec and 3min20sec is the timing for Gateway, although you need to cut probe producion for a short time at 18/18 supply block. On many maps, you can get away with Gateway before Cannon vs 14/15 pool. At top level, Protoss seems to be aware of this, but random master guys on ladder are mostly unaware of this timing and place cannon first probably "to be safe" when lings cannot possibly make it in time if you calculated it well before the match. 15 or 20sec might sound too little, but having to deal with 15sec earlier 7gate, 2 stargate, sentry/immortal, or any kind of pressure means Zerg needs to cut drones that much earlier. Just by knowing the timings, Protoss can gain crucial 15sec with no sacrifice. I don't think saving 15sec alone beats stephano style, but it should definately help to have your army ready 15sec earlier for any strategy you do.

Do you remember some GSL matches where Terran players research medivac energy research(whatever it is called), just to let your opponent see it and force him to prepare for possible Cloaked banshee and cancel the research after scout/scan is gone? Cloak is 200/200 research and medivac energy thing is 100/100 so cheaper research is better if you cancel it anyways. Philosophy behind this move is that you waste some money so that your opponent wastes more money than you do. Ever since BW, these deception tactics and giving your opponent wrong information has been a part of the game. However, I hardly ever see Protoss players explore this field and try to give Zerg misleading information. Generally, Protoss players try to hide buildings from overlord scout, but thats about it. I would like to see more what I call "Gas Deception."
As covered by Identifying the build section of
[G]Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Fast Third ZvP
scouting Protoss natural gas is very important to Zerg players. 0 gas by 7min usually means gateway heavy builds like 6/7gate all in, or +1 4 gate pressure variations. 2 gas before 6min is often times 2 Stargate, DT, or sentry heavy builds including fast 3rd, all of which lets Zerg delay his army production for a while. For example, DRG intentionally delays his Roach Warren =150 mineral = 3 drones worth depending on scouting information he gets. I watched all DRG replays in MLG Winter Arena and his roach warren timing varied as much as 1 full minute. Upon scouting 0gas, just a single chronoboost on cyber core, and relatively aggressive zealot stalker, DRG makes Roach Warren at 6min50sec vs Oz Game 3. In vs Parting Game 1, Roach Warren timing is 7min50sec upon scouting 1 gas before 6min mark and 2nd gas at 7min10sec. DRG would have been dead if he made 7min50sec RW in vs Oz game. Later RW means more drones early on, more drones early means more roaches later on. Good Zergs always try to delay army production in favor of bigger army later on.
Now, what if Protoss player takes 1 or 2 gas at natural relatively early, mine from them, let Zerg scout it while you pull probes at gas in main back to mineral so that you actually mine from 1 or 2 gas total. Mining from natural gas would delay Zerg army production in favor of better economy especially if Zerg is good. If you follow this up with early aggression builds like 6/7 gate, +1 4gate, which you normally do without natural gas, then I believe it will catch many Zerg off guard. Of course gas deception costs you 75 or 150 extra mineral for assimilator(s), so the attack would be slightly weaker than usual, but don't you think it's worth it if you could do more damage with the pressure? I have never seen this done even at top level, and I believe this is worth exploring. Or, I could have missed some matches where this deception trick is used, then my apologies. I wouldn't say this kind of "trick" would instantly win many games, but if more Protoss mix something like this more often, then Zerg players would be more in the dark and might have to prepare army even after scouting gas at natural which forces less droning. You might think overlord scouting negates this strategy, but overlord cannot scout natural gas, main gas, whatever buildings you have all at the same time. Just forcing overlord to check main gas as well would help in hiding tech buildings. If I'm not hallucinating, I see this become metagame at one point and Artosis/Tasteless go crazy about how smart the player is.

I read the OP, and understand Gateway first is not the center of the topic. I agree FFE is better vs Zerg. However, ever since FFE became standard, Zerg stopped drone scouting. FFE is pretty much all you see in pro matches and higher leagues in ladder, drone scout became virtually pointless. Drone scout hurts Zerg economy more than probe scout hurts Protoss economy. While Nexus can produce 1 Nexus at a time, Zerg can produce multiple drones at a time. Having less mineral due to probe scouting doesn't prevent Protoss from constantly making probes until 75 probes, while drone production can certainly be hindered by less mineral income early on. On average, it costs about 100 mineral = 2 drones worth just to determine FFE/Gateway first build by drone scout. Since 12drone scout leaves at 1min30sec, 100 mineral would be lost by 4min mark. Considering 4min25sec 3rd is the standard today, drone scout would delay Zerg 3rd as well as everything else slightly, but surely.
Now, how do you force Zerg to drone scout then? The answer is "occasional" gateway builds. Whenever Zerg is in doubt if Protoss is FFE or Gateway, Zerg cannot take 3rd blindly before gas or he is dead. Therefore, drone scout is usually needed to find that out. Today, probably 95-98% of games are FFE, so drone scout is not worth it. If Protoss players "collectively" mix more gateway builds and bring FFE % down to, say, 80% or less, then more Zerg would have to sacrifice economy and go for drone scout.
I am not saying this without evidence.
Stephano vs Mana Game 1 Assembly Winter 2012 on Shakuras Plateau
DRG vs Parting MLG Winter Arena Losers Bracket Round 6 Game6 on Entombed Valley
Both times, Zerg won, but the point is that Zerg took blind 3rd without gas. Mana messed up his execusion, Parting chose weird build. Had Mana executed his 4 gate better, had Parting chose 4 gate, then those would have been easy wins for Protoss. 6min first gas, 6min first spine crawler would have never survived 4 gate in DRG vs Parting. I am not suggesting in any ways that you should 4 gate to win, all I'm saying is that Protoss race "as a whole" should unite and mix in something like this a bit more often so that you force drone scout from Zerg players which helps your FFE games. If Zerg takes 3rd as 2nd base due to pylon block, which happens quite often today, occasional gateway play becomes so much more powerful. Once enough people try gateway play, then Zerg will hesitate to take 3rd as 2nd base even when you go FFE which gives Protoss advantage by doing nothing different in that particular game, but by shifting metagame OUTSIDE of that game.