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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
This post contains GSL spoilers from Liquid`HerO's recent GSL group, if you haven't gotten up-to-date or don't like spoilers, please do not read on. Thank you.
I am not sure if anyone's watched the GSL recently, but I watched HerO's games in his GSL group and noticed that he had a particular style of opening that he executed almost every game without avail against Startale's Curious (it's worthy to note that + Show Spoiler +HerO went 4 - 1 in Maps against ST_Curious using this exact same strategy except for Daybreak at the end, and I believe he only lost one game due to a flook on his part
I noticed that he kept adopting this FFE or Nexus First into 1 Zealot 1 Stalker pressure to the third base of Curious and followed it up with sentries each time as a precaution (except in one game where he opted to add two extra zealots to exert map control to follow up with his double voidray variation) and added a Stargate at the standard timing (5:45 - 6:00) each time (in one game he delayed it to 6:16, but that was to pump out two more Zealots to exert map control). He then proceeded to harass the third base of his opponent and added 4 gateways usually around the 7:00 minute mark if he goes for a Nexus first approach, or at the 8:00 minute mark with an FFE approach, and shortly after (30 seconds to 1 minute later on) he will add a Robotics Facility.
He then adds a Voidray and four to five phoenix and exerts map control, killing overlords and forcing spore crawlers as well as sniping Drones and dealing damage whereever he can. Meanwhile at home he is building up a sentry count and Zealots, and gets an observer out and then gets one Immortal out on the field. The important thing to note is that, each game he played where he went for a Stargate, he pressed forward for a quick third base usually at the 9:45 - 10:00 minute mark, added a Robotics Bay shortly after, a fleet beacon (depending on dedication to roaches or not) and then 3 additional gateways. Relying on quite a few cannons at his third base and an established economical boost from his quick third base, HerO used his warp-ins, 1-2 Immortals, good forcefields and a nice force of Stalkers, Sentries and Zealots to hold off any aggression coming from ST_Curious.
He then managed to transition out of this, look into taking a fourth base and invest further into tech (such as a fleet beacon if he hasn't already got it, and then a Mothership) and eventually crush his opponent with a very heavy Stalker count. I was wondering if this style could be applicable versus Stephano's 3 base style, and think that it could be useful to look into in the near future. I say this though having no clear memory of what happens in the GSL games as it is late at night (05:30), and so I cannot ensure the accuracy of this post, nor have I tried this against Stephano style 3 base play yet, but I will make sure to do so and then report back straight away.
Sorry if it is completely missing the point and I've failed at the added discussion to the brewing debate, but I thought it was an interesting call of HerO's to adopt this Stargate play for most of the games against ST_Curious. ^^ Thanks for reading, and I'm sorry again if I screwed up and just irritated people by adding pointless stuff to this debate.
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On March 31 2012 13:31 Saber96 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This post contains GSL spoilers from Liquid`HerO's recent GSL group, if you haven't gotten up-to-date or don't like spoilers, please do not read on. Thank you. I am not sure if anyone's watched the GSL recently, but I watched HerO's games in his GSL group and noticed that he had a particular style of opening that he executed almost every game without avail against Startale's Curious (it's worthy to note that + Show Spoiler +HerO went 4 - 1 in Maps against ST_Curious using this exact same strategy except for Daybreak at the end, and I believe he only lost one game due to a flook on his part ). I noticed that he kept adopting this FFE or Nexus First into 1 Zealot 1 Stalker pressure to the third base of Curious and followed it up with sentries each time as a precaution (except in one game where he opted to add two extra zealots to exert map control to follow up with his double voidray variation) and added a Stargate at the standard timing (5:45 - 6:00) each time (in one game he delayed it to 6:16, but that was to pump out two more Zealots to exert map control). He then proceeded to harass the third base of his opponent and added 4 gateways usually around the 7:00 minute mark if he goes for a Nexus first approach, or at the 8:00 minute mark with an FFE approach, and shortly after (30 seconds to 1 minute later on) he will add a Robotics Facility. He then adds a Voidray and four to five phoenix and exerts map control, killing overlords and forcing spore crawlers as well as sniping Drones and dealing damage whereever he can. Meanwhile at home he is building up a sentry count and Zealots, and gets an observer out and then gets one Immortal out on the field. The important thing to note is that, each game he played where he went for a Stargate, he pressed forward for a quick third base usually at the 9:45 - 10:00 minute mark, added a Robotics Bay shortly after, a fleet beacon (depending on dedication to roaches or not) and then 3 additional gateways. Relying on quite a few cannons at his third base and an established economical boost from his quick third base, HerO used his warp-ins, 1-2 Immortals, good forcefields and a nice force of Stalkers, Sentries and Zealots to hold off any aggression coming from ST_Curious. He then managed to transition out of this, look into taking a fourth base and invest further into tech (such as a fleet beacon if he hasn't already got it, and then a Mothership) and eventually crush his opponent with a very heavy Stalker count. I was wondering if this style could be applicable versus Stephano's 3 base style, and think that it could be useful to look into in the near future. I say this though having no clear memory of what happens in the GSL games as it is late at night (05:30), and so I cannot ensure the accuracy of this post, nor have I tried this against Stephano style 3 base play yet, but I will make sure to do so and then report back straight away. Sorry if it is completely missing the point and I've failed at the added discussion to the brewing debate, but I thought it was an interesting call of HerO's to adopt this Stargate play for most of the games against ST_Curious. ^^ Thanks for reading, and I'm sorry again if I screwed up and just irritated people by adding pointless stuff to this debate.
This is very standard play. The one thing that he incorporates (and people have beeing doing before) that could be used to disrupt the Stephano style is the zealot/stalker pressure on the third that has the Queen as #1 priority, since this allows the Void Ray to do much more damage.
However, if the air play doesn`t do any damage and the Zerg doesn`t overreact to it, this style won`t stop the roach spam, in my experience. But I don`t have korean progamer forcefields, maybe they are more confident in defending that push with better micro.
EDIT: IPL ToC spoilers:
+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah, apparently Her0 can hold it with his superior micro, lol. It wasn`t a Stargate opening, but he held the 12min roach spam at the third on antiga with 4 cannons and 2 immortals with a warp prism picking them up.
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On March 31 2012 13:31 Saber96 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This post contains GSL spoilers from Liquid`HerO's recent GSL group, if you haven't gotten up-to-date or don't like spoilers, please do not read on. Thank you. I am not sure if anyone's watched the GSL recently, but I watched HerO's games in his GSL group and noticed that he had a particular style of opening that he executed almost every game without avail against Startale's Curious (it's worthy to note that + Show Spoiler +HerO went 4 - 1 in Maps against ST_Curious using this exact same strategy except for Daybreak at the end, and I believe he only lost one game due to a flook on his part ). I noticed that he kept adopting this FFE or Nexus First into 1 Zealot 1 Stalker pressure to the third base of Curious and followed it up with sentries each time as a precaution (except in one game where he opted to add two extra zealots to exert map control to follow up with his double voidray variation) and added a Stargate at the standard timing (5:45 - 6:00) each time (in one game he delayed it to 6:16, but that was to pump out two more Zealots to exert map control). He then proceeded to harass the third base of his opponent and added 4 gateways usually around the 7:00 minute mark if he goes for a Nexus first approach, or at the 8:00 minute mark with an FFE approach, and shortly after (30 seconds to 1 minute later on) he will add a Robotics Facility. He then adds a Voidray and four to five phoenix and exerts map control, killing overlords and forcing spore crawlers as well as sniping Drones and dealing damage whereever he can. Meanwhile at home he is building up a sentry count and Zealots, and gets an observer out and then gets one Immortal out on the field. The important thing to note is that, each game he played where he went for a Stargate, he pressed forward for a quick third base usually at the 9:45 - 10:00 minute mark, added a Robotics Bay shortly after, a fleet beacon (depending on dedication to roaches or not) and then 3 additional gateways. Relying on quite a few cannons at his third base and an established economical boost from his quick third base, HerO used his warp-ins, 1-2 Immortals, good forcefields and a nice force of Stalkers, Sentries and Zealots to hold off any aggression coming from ST_Curious. He then managed to transition out of this, look into taking a fourth base and invest further into tech (such as a fleet beacon if he hasn't already got it, and then a Mothership) and eventually crush his opponent with a very heavy Stalker count. I was wondering if this style could be applicable versus Stephano's 3 base style, and think that it could be useful to look into in the near future. I say this though having no clear memory of what happens in the GSL games as it is late at night (05:30), and so I cannot ensure the accuracy of this post, nor have I tried this against Stephano style 3 base play yet, but I will make sure to do so and then report back straight away. Sorry if it is completely missing the point and I've failed at the added discussion to the brewing debate, but I thought it was an interesting call of HerO's to adopt this Stargate play for most of the games against ST_Curious. ^^ Thanks for reading, and I'm sorry again if I screwed up and just irritated people by adding pointless stuff to this debate.
Maybe that's because his strategy is the appropriate reaction - or maybe that's becuase he's just better at executing his strategy than curious is at defending it. This post was made under the supposition that the answer is the latter, and this style of pressuring an early third leaves zerg able to deny protoss a third.
Edit: added spoiler tags.
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I'm not a good player but I'd like to see if I could center the discussion. I think that countering this build relies on understanding why it works.
Steps in Stephano's build [idea]
Step 1: Take a fast third base w/o gas.
Step 2: Drone up to 60 by 8 minutes. Get 4 queens.
Step 3: Defend timing attacks after 8ish minutes with your roach warren that you started a minute earlier.
Step 4: Kill.
Since you will have an economic lead, any attack you make after 8 minutes better be incredibly strong because roaches are cost efficient against gateway units and zerg as that 60 drone economy.
This seems to make it clear that solutions have only a few categories-
The Timing Solution
Method: Deal damage to the zerg with warp-tech which usually means between when they have 60 drones + roaches but before the massive roach spam.
Comment: Protoss loves their timings, eh? Maybe there's some brilliant timing that exploits this build but I doubt it. The only thing I can think of would be some bizzare queen killing build that deliberately thwarts the zerg's production.
The Cheesy Solution
Method: Stop him from getting up 3 bases and/or 60 drones. The problem is that this probably must occur either before warp-tech completes or with some serious warpgate chrono.
This thread implies that it doesn't want to discuss strategies of this type as they are not "stable." But I'm not so sure that this is true. Kiwikaki used to do a weird build where he got up a fast second gate before his cyber core for fast zealot pushes that falls into this class. Additionally, the utility of fast cannons might be underexplored. I know Incontrol is willing to sack some pylons and/or cannons to delay the hatcheries.
Comment: I would like to see some of these explored. Sometimes the most unintuitive solutions are the most important.
The Composition Solution
Method: Have the perfect composition of units to face the roach spam properly. This includes discussions of +2 blink timings, voids, double robo, everything.
Comment: I think this one is kind of silly, but also where Protosses are at the moment. I don't know if there's a realistic composition that exposes roach vulnerabilities except for stargate.
The Greedy Solution
Method: Since zerg can only put on pressure with slow lings until around 7 and a half minutes, maybe there is an undiscovered build for untold economic riches.
Comment: This seems to be the direction this thread is going in.
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Just watched the most recent Day9 daily on PvZ early third and was very disappointed to see that it involved 4 gateways and three avenues of tech before expand with void rays and phoenixes harassing. I was really hoping to see something like what is in this thread. In one of his replays, P is up more than 10 probes at one point after a cannon harassment at the third. There's nothing wrong with the build he outlined or anything - I was just hoping since he tends to be in favor of high economy forms of play that he would have picked up on Ranged's build. Instead, he seemed to imply that all you needed to do was get some early air to keep zerg from being able to have an overwhelmingly strong push on your third. 
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Dude.. sounds like alot of you want ffe and a build that destroys zerg 3 base....no such thing...
your basicly asking a impossiable build that lets u have 2939239 units while ffe and gain a ecom and unit advange, no such thing in all of sc2.....you can be greedy and play out a 2 base and try to secure your 3rd with ffe.
Or you can not ffe....I know alot of you don't know anything else vs zerg. But all the builds that beat 3 base zerg are non ffe builds which makes sense....4 gateing vs 3 base is a auto win for the toss.... was show in the gstl ect.
Sorry but you can't have it both ways, you scout a 3 base build, you fake ffe and go ahead with early gateways instead of ffe and you can apply all sorts of heavy early preasure forcing him to cancel his 3rd base and get gas/early roach warren ect. or just kill him.
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Started watching g4 Hero v Life partway through, was life doing Stephano build and did Hero hold w/prism micro + sentry?
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Given that the current set of builds that we're exploring revolve around 7:00 minish thirds and fairly large sentry counts, it seems intuitive that we're heavily reliant on sentries to survive the mid-game, up until the third kicks in fully and we're at a sizable stalker+immortal count.
What does this say for our upcoming map pool? If we're reliant on sentries being able to optimally FF to survive, does this rule out maps with multiple attack paths (from highly diverse angles)? If we're running either observers or hallucination and have perfect info on zerg movements, does this mean that we can only do this build on maps with shorter defensive pathing? Most of the testing so far has been using Antiga as a baseline, but how many more maps can we extend this build to?
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On April 01 2012 18:19 Tyrek wrote:
Given that the current set of builds that we're exploring revolve around 7:00 minish thirds and fairly large sentry counts, it seems intuitive that we're heavily reliant on sentries to survive the mid-game, up until the third kicks in fully and we're at a sizable stalker+immortal count.
What does this say for our upcoming map pool? If we're reliant on sentries being able to optimally FF to survive, does this rule out maps with multiple attack paths (from highly diverse angles)? If we're running either observers or hallucination and have perfect info on zerg movements, does this mean that we can only do this build on maps with shorter defensive pathing? Most of the testing so far has been using Antiga as a baseline, but how many more maps can we extend this build to?
Any map that has a close third base. Daybreak, Antiga, Cloud Kingdom and Entombed. On most other maps it's not viable because of rocks at the third, or the fact that the 3rd is much too far away
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On April 01 2012 11:25 silentdecay01 wrote:
Dude.. sounds like alot of you want ffe and a build that destroys zerg 3 base....no such thing...
your basicly asking a impossiable build that lets u have 2939239 units while ffe and gain a ecom and unit advange, no such thing in all of sc2.....you can be greedy and play out a 2 base and try to secure your 3rd with ffe.
Or you can not ffe....I know alot of you don't know anything else vs zerg. But all the builds that beat 3 base zerg are non ffe builds which makes sense....4 gateing vs 3 base is a auto win for the toss.... was show in the gstl ect.
Sorry but you can't have it both ways, you scout a 3 base build, you fake ffe and go ahead with early gateways instead of ffe and you can apply all sorts of heavy early preasure forcing him to cancel his 3rd base and get gas/early roach warren ect. or just kill him.
How do you fake a FFE into 4 gate? He's going to scout the nexus being built AND finishing, he's Zerg, he has overlords/lings.
This thread is about playing in the greediest possible way, with good scouting and appropriate reactions, to try and get to a point at 12 minutes where you can survive against a maxed roach army, I'm not sure why that should be impossible.
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United States8476 Posts
On April 01 2012 11:25 silentdecay01 wrote:
Dude.. sounds like alot of you want ffe and a build that destroys zerg 3 base....no such thing...
your basicly asking a impossiable build that lets u have 2939239 units while ffe and gain a ecom and unit advange, no such thing in all of sc2.....you can be greedy and play out a 2 base and try to secure your 3rd with ffe.
Or you can not ffe....I know alot of you don't know anything else vs zerg. But all the builds that beat 3 base zerg are non ffe builds which makes sense....4 gateing vs 3 base is a auto win for the toss.... was show in the gstl ect.
Sorry but you can't have it both ways, you scout a 3 base build, you fake ffe and go ahead with early gateways instead of ffe and you can apply all sorts of heavy early preasure forcing him to cancel his 3rd base and get gas/early roach warren ect. or just kill him.
Really ignorant post.
On April 01 2012 18:19 Tyrek wrote:
Given that the current set of builds that we're exploring revolve around 7:00 minish thirds and fairly large sentry counts, it seems intuitive that we're heavily reliant on sentries to survive the mid-game, up until the third kicks in fully and we're at a sizable stalker+immortal count.
What does this say for our upcoming map pool? If we're reliant on sentries being able to optimally FF to survive, does this rule out maps with multiple attack paths (from highly diverse angles)? If we're running either observers or hallucination and have perfect info on zerg movements, does this mean that we can only do this build on maps with shorter defensive pathing? Most of the testing so far has been using Antiga as a baseline, but how many more maps can we extend this build to?
There are already a few maps that exist which are close to impossible to take a passive 3rd on. Off the top of my head these include Dual Sight Korhal compound, and Testbug iirc. Because of this, these maps are considered fairly zerg favored in the mu. Luckily, I don't believe any new maps or many future maps will have the same problems, including metropolis, ohana, or altantis spaceship.
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I know this is pure theorycrafting, but if you know that z is going for this build (big assumption of course), could you not go for a bw-esque mass phoenix/vr/dt build as he won't have detection or antiair to cope with your composition. At least having 6-7 phoenixes will deter mutas and will do some harassment and possibly force zerg to move into infestor-based midgame.
I admit I've only read last 2 pages of this thread, sorry if this's been discussed already.
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With opening robo after FFE you can hold the third with just immortal/sentry/stalker on most maps against this, there are only some problematic maps then:
- maps like tal darim where muta play is already hard to stop so opening robo is not that great. I just suggest either air play into expo here or just a two base attack.
- maps like korhal compound. 3rd base is very hard to hold here and air play probably doesn't make you safe. Fortunately it's virtually impossible for zerg to hold the third with the stephano style on korhal compound agianst either a 6 gate or a later blink all-in. The cliff overlooking the third is ideal for putting proxy pylons, which are also hard to take down by lings. The cliff is also awesome for blink abuse obviously. I've never had zerg hold a 6 gate on this map, worst case scenario they only lose the third and put spines at the natural at which point you can take the third afterall and hold with blink stalker + immortal.
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On April 01 2012 20:11 greggy wrote:
I know this is pure theorycrafting, but if you know that z is going for this build (big assumption of course), could you not go for a bw-esque mass phoenix/vr/dt build as he won't have detection or antiair to cope with your composition. At least having 6-7 phoenixes will deter mutas and will do some harassment and possibly force zerg to move into infestor-based midgame.
I admit I've only read last 2 pages of this thread, sorry if this's been discussed already.
dt's are terrible in PvZ nowadays since overseers are so cheap. They can just add some hydra and overseers and your third will still fall then.
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On April 01 2012 20:11 greggy wrote:
I know this is pure theorycrafting, but if you know that z is going for this build (big assumption of course), could you not go for a bw-esque mass phoenix/vr/dt build as he won't have detection or antiair to cope with your composition. At least having 6-7 phoenixes will deter mutas and will do some harassment and possibly force zerg to move into infestor-based midgame.
I admit I've only read last 2 pages of this thread, sorry if this's been discussed already.
Thing is, the zerg will have spores and queens to defend this very easily, and you won't be able to stop the zerg from staying at a huge macro advantage. I think it's pretty clear with this situation that toss either has to kill the zerg off 2 bases (which won't happen if you go air+dts since spores and queens will defend it pretty easily), or you have to get a third base early and go for the lategame (which you can't if you invest in that much tech).
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Assuming that you open FFE, I'm convinced that in order to beat this, you basically need to FF super effectively. Anything else, like expansion timings, opening build order or the tech progression path that you've chosen doesn't matter that much. A faster robo bay will get you a faster colossus, which can be useful, just like any other suggestions that I've seen here. But what needs to be done is simple: When Zerg is shoving 35-40 roaches or 20 roaches mixed with a bunch of lings down your throat at 10-11min, the only thing you can do is FF well because there's not really anything else to do, it is not possible to keep up with that level of insane production.
Or you're a baller like MC with multiple 2base timings and can make them work, so you try to kill Zerg with that. Unfortunately not all of us can play that well.
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On March 25 2012 01:20 kcdc wrote:Great reps, Ranged. The one on Antiga where he went for the SuperRoach build was a thing of beauty. As soon as blink finished, his attack was effectively over. I think with this build, you have a bigger, more mobile force than you're used to, and you wound up playing more passively than you needed to. You should experiment with pushing out and harassing at 12 or 13 minutes. It might get you killed for a while, but it's good to know what you can get away with. In theory blink stalkers in that number should be able retreat unless you run them into infestors. I'm so rusty after not playing all week, but I wanted to try running through it against the AI: http://drop.sc/141267With 15/15, first gas on 23, second gas on 25 and cutting the zealot, I had 400 minerals to start a nexus at 6:45. Compared to what you're doing, I'm getting my 2nd gas earlier and my 3rd gas later--after my nexus. The total gas mined is probably about the same, but it lets me get my nexus a little sooner. It also lets me start +1 weapons earlier which could be good against speedling harass on the third. I forgot hallucination, but I think I'll probably do a hallucination-less version of the build at least initially. You should know whether the roach attack is coming by the gathering hoard at your door at 11 minutes, so if nothing's there, you know it's mutas or infestors, and in either case, templar are a good response. With just 5 sentries and an option to scout the front in the midgame with blink stalkers, it's tough to tell whether hallucination is worth it. I was banking chronoboost and supply blocking myself left and right, and I still hit 141 supply with blink, +2 and an obs at 12 min. I think with better play, 150+ supply is possible, but in a real game, you'll usually pylon block Z's natural and lose it which slows the build down slightly. This seems like it really should be reliably safe against the SuperRoach timing. It'll still require very sharp play, but it seems like it may be an answer.
So it looks like you guys have reached a conclusion. kcdc, would you be able to edit some of yours/ranged's stuff on page 40/41 into the OP? It's a bit of a pain to have to dig through the thread each time.
Also, would it be possible to get an actual build order in standard format as well? I can (and have, in desperation) reconstruct the timings from yours or ranged's replays, but I have no real idea what's correct and what might be an artifact of the games. I assume your vs. AI one is a good benchmark, but even so...
If any thread needs a tl;dr, it's this one.
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On April 01 2012 19:10 SpinmovE wrote:
This thread is about playing in the greediest possible way, with good scouting and appropriate reactions, to try and get to a point at 12 minutes where you can survive against a maxed roach army, I'm not sure why that should be impossible.
It needs to be possible, because if you can't do it, the only other alternative is 2 base allinning. I'm sure you can survive the first wave if you just 2 base defensively, but when would you ever get the chance to take a 3rd then? Zerg can just keep sending endless waves of stuff at you and expanding more behind it, and you're going to mine out eventually, and if you haven't secured a 3rd it's going to be 1 base to 3.
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On April 02 2012 14:44 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 01:20 kcdc wrote:Great reps, Ranged. The one on Antiga where he went for the SuperRoach build was a thing of beauty. As soon as blink finished, his attack was effectively over. I think with this build, you have a bigger, more mobile force than you're used to, and you wound up playing more passively than you needed to. You should experiment with pushing out and harassing at 12 or 13 minutes. It might get you killed for a while, but it's good to know what you can get away with. In theory blink stalkers in that number should be able retreat unless you run them into infestors. I'm so rusty after not playing all week, but I wanted to try running through it against the AI: http://drop.sc/141267With 15/15, first gas on 23, second gas on 25 and cutting the zealot, I had 400 minerals to start a nexus at 6:45. Compared to what you're doing, I'm getting my 2nd gas earlier and my 3rd gas later--after my nexus. The total gas mined is probably about the same, but it lets me get my nexus a little sooner. It also lets me start +1 weapons earlier which could be good against speedling harass on the third. I forgot hallucination, but I think I'll probably do a hallucination-less version of the build at least initially. You should know whether the roach attack is coming by the gathering hoard at your door at 11 minutes, so if nothing's there, you know it's mutas or infestors, and in either case, templar are a good response. With just 5 sentries and an option to scout the front in the midgame with blink stalkers, it's tough to tell whether hallucination is worth it. I was banking chronoboost and supply blocking myself left and right, and I still hit 141 supply with blink, +2 and an obs at 12 min. I think with better play, 150+ supply is possible, but in a real game, you'll usually pylon block Z's natural and lose it which slows the build down slightly. This seems like it really should be reliably safe against the SuperRoach timing. It'll still require very sharp play, but it seems like it may be an answer. So it looks like you guys have reached a conclusion. kcdc, would you be able to edit some of yours/ranged's stuff on page 40/41 into the OP? It's a bit of a pain to have to dig through the thread each time. Also, would it be possible to get an actual build order in standard format as well? I can (and have, in desperation) reconstruct the timings from yours or ranged's replays, but I have no real idea what's correct and what might be an artifact of the games. I assume your vs. AI one is a good benchmark, but even so... If any thread needs a tl;dr, it's this one.
doesn't this build still die to a 7pool
assuming you were trying to copy ranged builds relatively closely, this dies to any pressure, which is unscoutable because he has lings on the map, this'll die to a 3 hatch baneling bust, that 8:30ish roach pressure, quite a few things
can't find ranged post since it wasn't quoted
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EPT
