EPTGoing a regular FFE and boosting your core well you can push with 6 gates around 7:45, much stronger then this gate before nexus stuff where you may push a bit earlier but you wont have +1 attack that fast nor the economy to support a good amount of units yet.
[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 48
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Going a regular FFE and boosting your core well you can push with 6 gates around 7:45, much stronger then this gate before nexus stuff where you may push a bit earlier but you wont have +1 attack that fast nor the economy to support a good amount of units yet. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
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frietjeman
Netherlands26 Posts
Obviously you're supposed to scout the early 3rd of the zerg to make sure they're going for the eco roach spam playstyle. I tried this against a platinum mate of mine (we're both r1 platinum) and I won but I must admit he didn't scout the robos. So in order to make this work you have to make sure you dont get overlord scouts (3-5stalkers in base with good base vision at around 6:30). I'm not too familiar with timings so I'm not sure if thats possible but most overlord scouts enter the base at 7min so you need to start hitting them as soon as you can because if they scout double robo you're dead. (mutas/mass lings will destroy this build) So the point of this would be: FFE into 2-3 gates. 1 robo after the 1st gate and add 2nd after scouting 3rd base. chrono out immortals attack upgrades aren't too important cause immortals will always 3-shot roaches unless the zerg would be +2 ahead in armor upgrades, so chrono can be used on robos. A couple of zealots aren't bad to have if gas is limited cause lings are very dangerous obviously. By no means do I suggest this build to be anywhere near perfect or even viable to begin with, but it's something to think about. Maybe if some better players give this some thought it might turn out to work. Edit: the pro of this build is you're gonna be ridiculously cost effective against zerg army, it allows for perfect collosus transition if they keep going ground and you're also able to scout as much as you like cause of the early access to observers. A spire should NEVER go up without you noticing, and as long as they don't go air you should never lose a battle with double immortal/collosus production. Immortals are not THAT gas heavy so you should be able to produce double immortals of 4 gas while maintaining upgrades and zealot/sentry off of 3 gates. Once again, I do not claim to be unrefutably correct in what I post. I'm only platinum and I'm well aware my observations aren't facts so feel free to point out what I said wrong. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
@Sated: actually feast just traded lings for zealots, but for some reason Idra stopped droning at 44, which is just outright bad and made him lose the game. Besides it's Idra's pvz you can't draw any conclusions from that xD | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 02 2012 22:31 Sated wrote: I think you're underestimating the amount of damage that Feast did with his push. Feast was so far ahead after his +1 4gate pressure that it didn't matter what IdrA did - he couldn't hope to defend that 2base all-in. IdrA didn't have enough time to get out Infestors, the Infestor energy upgrade and upgrades for his Roaches... and he certainly didn't have enough Drones (44) to support all of that. I could be mistaken here, but isn't part of the problem that Idra had to spend a bunch on lings because he hadn't even started a roach warren when the push arrived? If this becomes the go-to answer, and it therefore becomes mainstream to watch the order of the original buildings (which he can easily do, but didn't in that game), and time a roach warren for 7 minutes instead of 8 - is feast still way ahead? I personally doubt it, though I guess perhaps time will tell. | ||
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frietjeman
Netherlands26 Posts
On April 02 2012 22:44 Teoita wrote: @frietjeman for the hundreth time yes and it sucks because you can't do it reactively and if zerg goes mutas you are dead. Wow what a ridiculous reply. If you don't have the decency to read my post completely then don't reply. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 02 2012 22:31 Sated wrote: I think you're underestimating the amount of damage that Feast did with his push. Feast was so far ahead after his +1 4gate pressure that it didn't matter what IdrA did - he couldn't hope to defend that 2base all-in. IdrA didn't have enough time to get out Infestors, the Infestor energy upgrade and upgrades for his Roaches... and he certainly didn't have enough Drones (44) to support all of that. Seems you completely misread the game. Feast made an initial push which hardly did any damage and idra repelled quite easily. Then idra decided to push feast instead of droning up and taking extra gasses, he traded poorly and didn't increase his economy while doing so... Whenever zerg attack before they are maxed out on economy they basically need to do damage as they are attacking instead of increasing economy.. Idra's attack failed and then Feast could finish Idra off with a critical blink stalker attack since idra never continued to drone. After the first failed push Idra simply had to clean up all the proxy pylons and go to 65ish drones and 6 gas and he would easily stop the next attack wave. Idra just lost because he got overconfident after stopping the first attack and failed to continue creep spreading or making drones at all afterwards.. I think some wishfull thinking got the better of you, you see a match where protoss does a unique attack and wins against a good zerg who as it seems does the standard 3 hatch mass roach. Idra however just screwed up after being far ahead when he stopped the first attack(feast killed 0 drones and traded poorly, plus he had almost no tech going nor any gas economy). Feast would have to wait at least 3 minutes to get blink after that first attack which gave ample oppurtunity for Idra to drone up, spread creep and increase gas intake.. Overall this build from Feast seems terrible for most purposes. It hugely delays the nexus just to get warpgate tech a bit earlier but he hardly has the economy to do anything useful with that warptech so early. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On April 02 2012 22:49 frietjeman wrote: Wow what a ridiculous reply. If you don't have the decency to read my post completely then don't reply. He's right. It's been suggested at least 3 times before in this thread and each time someone replied the same thing. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
On April 02 2012 23:06 NrGmonk wrote: He's right. It's been suggested at least 3 times before in this thread and each time someone replied the same thing. But equally if you want to try it and show some replays then go for it. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
I'm a huge fan of the fast 3rd sentry defense. However, I tried to practice it against my friend, and he used a hydra-roach/ling doom drop into my base, and even though I could clean it up, he still had 3 bases, and could counter attack all my fronts. (this was on Antiga). Is this a scouting mistake by me, could I have been able to hold it? It's still the same infrastructure as the roach bust, except it has hydralisks as well (which I have seen people get often vs. void ray opening) Replay: http://drop.sc/150242 Remember that it is only high diamond level, but I could see it happen in masters as well. Just curious about what you think. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
It's really standard 4gate +1 zealot pressure with blink + immortals behind it when taking a third. You want to take the third when you have blink immortal sentry and that means your army is very cost efficient if you can micro well. Kcdc i think this will help you a lot if you use it right! http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Kreos_vs_(P)Pez/19050 | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 02 2012 22:59 Markwerf wrote: Seems you completely misread the game. Feast made an initial push which hardly did any damage and idra repelled quite easily. Then idra decided to push feast instead of droning up and taking extra gasses, he traded poorly and didn't increase his economy while doing so... Whenever zerg attack before they are maxed out on economy they basically need to do damage as they are attacking instead of increasing economy.. Idra's attack failed and then Feast could finish Idra off with a critical blink stalker attack since idra never continued to drone. After the first failed push Idra simply had to clean up all the proxy pylons and go to 65ish drones and 6 gas and he would easily stop the next attack wave. Idra just lost because he got overconfident after stopping the first attack and failed to continue creep spreading or making drones at all afterwards.. I think some wishfull thinking got the better of you, you see a match where protoss does a unique attack and wins against a good zerg who as it seems does the standard 3 hatch mass roach. Idra however just screwed up after being far ahead when he stopped the first attack(feast killed 0 drones and traded poorly, plus he had almost no tech going nor any gas economy). Feast would have to wait at least 3 minutes to get blink after that first attack which gave ample oppurtunity for Idra to drone up, spread creep and increase gas intake.. Overall this build from Feast seems terrible for most purposes. It hugely delays the nexus just to get warpgate tech a bit earlier but he hardly has the economy to do anything useful with that warptech so early. How exactly would he stop the next attack wave? He'd still be on Roach/Ling against a large number of +1 Blink Stalkers. In fact, if he hadn't gone for the counter-attack, he would've been on Roach/Ling against +2 Blink Stalkers. He didn't have a chance to defend - he needs Infestors to defend against that number of Blink Stalkers and there wasn't enough time for him to get them out on the field with enough energy to throw down meaningful fungals because of how stunted his economy was. I agree that you have a slower economy than a FFE, but that isn't always a bad thing. If it was a bad thing then we'd be going 16 Nexus every game, Terran would be going 14CC every game and Zerg would be going 15 double-hatch or something equally ridiculous. Discarding a build because it is less economically is so very, very silly - this build has a different aim to a straight-up FFE and I think this VOD shows that it achieves that aim pretty well when the opponent doesn't react to it. And if they did react to it, they wouldn't be doing the Stephano build anymore, mission accomplished. --- Another thing, Feast could've just as easily taken a third instead of going for the all-in. Then it would be a 3base Protoss with a good infrastructure against a 3base Zerg. From there, anything could happen - except for Roach spam killing the 3rd base because IdrA was in no position to go for that build after the 4gate pressure. Feast did practically no damage with the attack except stopping zerg from droning really (idra lost 0 drones and traded favourably while feasts tech was practically stopped). Idra's demise was only caused by his bad decision to chase feast and do a bad attack into the natural where the only thing he practically killed was the forge. If he did a round of drones to get up to 65-70 at that point and improved his gas income he could easily stop the second wave which came like five minutes after the first. An important part to this mass roach style is only to push when the protoss is taking a third, before that zerg should either be defending or expanding economy/teching. Infestors don't need to be rushed against blink stalker timings, proper creep spread and a huge amount of roaches does fine to hold it as well when on a 60 drone economy. If feast had taken the third he would have a very tough time holding it against roach spam of a 65 drone 3 base idra. The replays/vods where this style fails for zergs so far have been games where zerg simply stops droning too early. As a rule of thumb zerg should be having roughly 20 drones per base for timing pushes with roaches as that provides optimal use of larvae: 20 drones for a 1 base roach bust, 35-40 drones for a 2 base roach/ling Losira bust and about 60 drones for a 3 base roach 'stephano' attack style. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On April 02 2012 19:37 Sated wrote: I came into this thread just to post that game, it's a good job I did a Ctrl+F first. Here is the game you're talking about. What happens is that Feast goes for 4gate +1 Zealot/Stalker pressure against the 3rd base earlier than standard 4gate +1 Zealot pressure hits (~7:00). He only takes one gas in order to hit this timing. This obviously screws with the normal timing Zerg's use to defend against standard +1 Zealot pressure and so forces IdrA to make a load of units he wouldn't have had to make otherwise. The result is that Feast ends up with more Probes than IdrA has Drones, forcing IdrA into a strange situation where he a) knows he has to make drones b) can't because there is a Blink/Immortal all-in heading his way. Yeah kcdc was mistaken as that build isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about gate-nexus-core/forge (timing of core/forge varies depending on what you scout), which essentially gives you an equal economy to a forge first FFE but a much earlier warp gate timing. IMO Feast's build in that game is simply inferior (although it is safer) to gate-nexus-core/forge because you can hit a similar timing as Feast did in that game but also have your nexus up faster for a stronger economy. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On April 03 2012 02:49 Sated wrote: Do you mean the YufFE build? - http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE I've never used it, but that's the only Gate -> Nexus -> Core/Forge build I can think of. Yes that is the opening I'm currently using. The more I use it the more I love it and I am surprised more players aren't using it. The only maps it can't be used on is on maps where you can't wall-off from your ramp to your natural nexus with a core + pylon + cannon (not viable on TDA for instance, you have to FFE on that map). It seems a bit nuanced (but really FFE is a nuanced opener as well it's just take people are used to it now), but all you have to really remember is to make sure you have cannon(s) up in time to defend any critical timings depending on what you scout. For example in Feast's game he could've scouted 14 pool into hatch before gas (e.g. no fast ling speed or any 1-base shenanigans) and could've easily went gate-nexus-core w/ a late forge with a later cannon. Opening this way he could've hit the same exact timing but would also have a much better economy to power his push. The beauty of this opening is that you can do any follow-up you would with a forge-first FFE as it has the virtually the same economy except you have a faster warp gate which no matter how you slice it is a huge deal in this match-up. For example even if you didn't want to be aggressive with this opening you could use the earlier warp gate timing to secure a much earlier third than out of a FFE. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On April 02 2012 23:06 NrGmonk wrote: He's right. It's been suggested at least 3 times before in this thread and each time someone replied the same thing. i think we need to think abit more out of the box to make those easy win strategies for zerg harder. a double immortal drop should be at least garantued sniping 1 tech structure. That may open an attack timing on the zerg player. I am thinking this more in the line of a terran play style sniping important tech structure (spire) followed with an hard push. It takes long enough to rebuild a spire (100s i think), that it might give us a good timing for a Immortal Stalker Sentry all-in off 2 bases. Without the standard spire ready in time(10-12 min mark) zerg will be stuck on roach / ling during mid game until they get another tech structure up both hydras and roaches and infestors i think can be dealt with immortals (colossus) could of 2 robo. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On April 03 2012 06:29 freetgy wrote: i think we need to think abit more out of the box to make those easy win strategies for zerg harder. a double immortal drop should be at least garantued sniping 1 tech structure. That may open an attack timing on the zerg player. I am thinking this more in the line of a terran play style sniping important tech structure (spire) followed with an hard push. It takes long enough to rebuild a spire (100s i think), that it might give us a good timing for a Immortal Stalker Sentry all-in off 2 bases. Without the standard spire ready in time(10-12 min mark) zerg will be stuck on roach / ling during mid game until they get another tech structure up both hydras and roaches and infestors i think can be dealt with immortals (colossus) could of 2 robo. Those are some gigantic assumptions you are throwing out there. You can`t guarantee to kill a Spire every time just because you decided to make a double immortal drop. | ||
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