• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:41
CEST 13:41
KST 20:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week2[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation14$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL67
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 1 - Final Week Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL [G] Progamer Settings ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 639 users

[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 46

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 44 45 46 47 48 78 Next
Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
March 28 2012 09:38 GMT
#901
On March 28 2012 18:25 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2012 11:52 Supah wrote:
In that Ret vs. Sase game, we can all pretty much agree that Ret threw the game rather than Sase playing brilliantly, right? Provided we can even safely take a "very" early third, what's the next step? Zerg notices it, alters to not Roach spam and then instead techs/expands/drones/spines up. Does anyone have experience with that style of reaction?


Yesterday I played 3-4 games versus a Zerg friend who's master 1000, and we tested this style of fast third vs fast hive.

I'm now pretty convinced there's no solid way to punish Zerg for doing that.

He got his first brood lords morphing around 14', which is 30s earlier than I had mentionned. Behind a huge wall of spines, mass lings and infestors.

The timing to push/punish the Zerg is around 11'. At 11'30 he has his spines walls, mass lings and 10+ infestors ready. But here's the problem: before 11'30, your army is tiny

There's no way you can attack after 11'30 and trade efficiently without splash damage. And guess what, using that fast third, you can't get colossi that fast..

Yea, but there's no way to reliably punish superfast infestor broodlord with any build that takes a relatively fast third on most maps. Only thing I can think of is like robo opening into super fast colossi into 3rd into cut probes into push in close position emtombed =O.
Moderator
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
March 28 2012 10:02 GMT
#902
On March 28 2012 18:38 NrGmonk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2012 18:25 Nyast wrote:
On March 28 2012 11:52 Supah wrote:
In that Ret vs. Sase game, we can all pretty much agree that Ret threw the game rather than Sase playing brilliantly, right? Provided we can even safely take a "very" early third, what's the next step? Zerg notices it, alters to not Roach spam and then instead techs/expands/drones/spines up. Does anyone have experience with that style of reaction?


Yesterday I played 3-4 games versus a Zerg friend who's master 1000, and we tested this style of fast third vs fast hive.

I'm now pretty convinced there's no solid way to punish Zerg for doing that.

He got his first brood lords morphing around 14', which is 30s earlier than I had mentionned. Behind a huge wall of spines, mass lings and infestors.

The timing to push/punish the Zerg is around 11'. At 11'30 he has his spines walls, mass lings and 10+ infestors ready. But here's the problem: before 11'30, your army is tiny

There's no way you can attack after 11'30 and trade efficiently without splash damage. And guess what, using that fast third, you can't get colossi that fast..

Yea, but there's no way to reliably punish superfast infestor broodlord with any build that takes a relatively fast third on most maps. Only thing I can think of is like robo opening into super fast colossi into 3rd into cut probes into push in close position emtombed =O.


You could just get a quick mothership though. It takes a while for Z to push with broods and you can get that mothership out on time if you for it straight after getting some colo to be safe from roach stuff.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
March 28 2012 10:08 GMT
#903
On March 28 2012 19:02 Markwerf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2012 18:38 NrGmonk wrote:
On March 28 2012 18:25 Nyast wrote:
On March 28 2012 11:52 Supah wrote:
In that Ret vs. Sase game, we can all pretty much agree that Ret threw the game rather than Sase playing brilliantly, right? Provided we can even safely take a "very" early third, what's the next step? Zerg notices it, alters to not Roach spam and then instead techs/expands/drones/spines up. Does anyone have experience with that style of reaction?


Yesterday I played 3-4 games versus a Zerg friend who's master 1000, and we tested this style of fast third vs fast hive.

I'm now pretty convinced there's no solid way to punish Zerg for doing that.

He got his first brood lords morphing around 14', which is 30s earlier than I had mentionned. Behind a huge wall of spines, mass lings and infestors.

The timing to push/punish the Zerg is around 11'. At 11'30 he has his spines walls, mass lings and 10+ infestors ready. But here's the problem: before 11'30, your army is tiny

There's no way you can attack after 11'30 and trade efficiently without splash damage. And guess what, using that fast third, you can't get colossi that fast..

Yea, but there's no way to reliably punish superfast infestor broodlord with any build that takes a relatively fast third on most maps. Only thing I can think of is like robo opening into super fast colossi into 3rd into cut probes into push in close position emtombed =O.


You could just get a quick mothership though. It takes a while for Z to push with broods and you can get that mothership out on time if you for it straight after getting some colo to be safe from roach stuff.

Never said you couldn't do that
Moderator
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
March 28 2012 14:12 GMT
#904
Yeah, I think a lot of P's are of the mindset that you need to kill Z before broodlords. A quick third sets P up very well for lategame--just take a fourth, do some cannon spamming and build a mothership and some archons. Do a little counter-attacking if you need to buy time. Broodlords are way easier to beat than mid-game roach spam.
yiN_
Profile Joined September 2011
France5 Posts
March 28 2012 16:56 GMT
#905
Just push early, MC style, stephano doesn't seem safe at all (drg or ret are safer) he often stays with 4 lings at 9 min and don't scout so much (no ov sac, and only 4 lings as I said)
Mikelius
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany517 Posts
March 28 2012 17:22 GMT
#906
On March 28 2012 23:12 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, I think a lot of P's are of the mindset that you need to kill Z before broodlords. A quick third sets P up very well for lategame--just take a fourth, do some cannon spamming and build a mothership and some archons. Do a little counter-attacking if you need to buy time. Broodlords are way easier to beat than mid-game roach spam.

I have very little actual late game knowledge PvZ (as I try to end it before then) so could you help me out and tell me what are some of the rough benchmarks or timings with which I should get a Mothership?
Less QQ, more PewPew
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 28 2012 17:24 GMT
#907
On March 29 2012 02:22 Mikelius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2012 23:12 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, I think a lot of P's are of the mindset that you need to kill Z before broodlords. A quick third sets P up very well for lategame--just take a fourth, do some cannon spamming and build a mothership and some archons. Do a little counter-attacking if you need to buy time. Broodlords are way easier to beat than mid-game roach spam.

I have very little actual late game knowledge PvZ (as I try to end it before then) so could you help me out and tell me what are some of the rough benchmarks or timings with which I should get a Mothership?


Start teching towards it when you see his hive start. If you have no clue at all, i think after your third is saturated and you are about to take your 4th is a reasonable time (don't quote me on that).
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
garsh0p
Profile Joined February 2010
United States30 Posts
March 28 2012 19:02 GMT
#908
On March 29 2012 02:22 Mikelius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2012 23:12 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, I think a lot of P's are of the mindset that you need to kill Z before broodlords. A quick third sets P up very well for lategame--just take a fourth, do some cannon spamming and build a mothership and some archons. Do a little counter-attacking if you need to buy time. Broodlords are way easier to beat than mid-game roach spam.

I have very little actual late game knowledge PvZ (as I try to end it before then) so could you help me out and tell me what are some of the rough benchmarks or timings with which I should get a Mothership?

I also have a little bit of trouble in the PvZ late game, even when I get mothership/carrier/archon. I'm just not quite sure how to micro the army in battle. Any pointers?
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-28 19:24:32
March 28 2012 19:12 GMT
#909
On March 29 2012 02:24 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2012 02:22 Mikelius wrote:
On March 28 2012 23:12 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, I think a lot of P's are of the mindset that you need to kill Z before broodlords. A quick third sets P up very well for lategame--just take a fourth, do some cannon spamming and build a mothership and some archons. Do a little counter-attacking if you need to buy time. Broodlords are way easier to beat than mid-game roach spam.

I have very little actual late game knowledge PvZ (as I try to end it before then) so could you help me out and tell me what are some of the rough benchmarks or timings with which I should get a Mothership?


Start teching towards it when you see his hive start. If you have no clue at all, i think after your third is saturated and you are about to take your 4th is a reasonable time (don't quote me on that).


If you watch MC play his games, if the opponent goes fast 3 hatch he gets the fleet beacon around the 15 minute mark assuming he took his third at about 12 minutes or sooner. He starts a mothership when he gets close to max but has the tech and scouts for hive and makes mothership when a hive is being researched. I've seen it in a few games in the past and is pretty cool. Hero the other day vs curious got a fleet beacon after taking his third too and used it since it was there to get anion pulse for the pheonixes.

Note these are the games he doesnt 7 gate it. I have seen it on his stream a little while back and more recently in MLG he played one game like that and in another league I also saw something similar maybe a month ago now? Might have been GSL not sure off the top of my head

More on topic with regards to roach spam:

I am not sure why some people are saying you shouldn't pressure at all with zealots with the +1 zealot 4 gate. I feel that if you do some sort of aggression or pressure you are at the very lease preventing some drones. Sure they can drop tons of drones after the aggression or pressure ends but on the flip side they can make those drones during the time there is no aggression as well.

Perhaps a +1 4 gate zealot is good if you see no roaches so you can prepare to do the attack, but if you see a lot of roaches and decide not to follow through by not warping in a lot of zealots at the forward pylon. Then continue with the blink stalker expand that Ranged is proposing. I tried it only two or three times now and I've found it helps a lot. The one time the opponent went for a lot of hydras I was in trouble but the roaches and mainly roaches with a few hydras was fine for me and I handled it well with blink.

On March 29 2012 04:02 garsh0p wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2012 02:22 Mikelius wrote:
On March 28 2012 23:12 kcdc wrote:
Yeah, I think a lot of P's are of the mindset that you need to kill Z before broodlords. A quick third sets P up very well for lategame--just take a fourth, do some cannon spamming and build a mothership and some archons. Do a little counter-attacking if you need to buy time. Broodlords are way easier to beat than mid-game roach spam.

I have very little actual late game knowledge PvZ (as I try to end it before then) so could you help me out and tell me what are some of the rough benchmarks or timings with which I should get a Mothership?

I also have a little bit of trouble in the PvZ late game, even when I get mothership/carrier/archon. I'm just not quite sure how to micro the army in battle. Any pointers?


You need to engage somewhere that has ground and not a large air space. For example, on entombed if the broodlords are in the empty air space you should try not to engage there unless you have an air force and 2 vortexes on the mothership.

The reason being that the goal is to vortex the broodlords when they stack and then move the archons into the vortex while trying to kill any infestors you can. If you have carriers, you need to make sure the carriers are far away from the vortex because otherwise the interceptors will get sucked in and do nothing during the duration of the vortex. In this sense the micro should involve poking at the Zerg position and keeping vision of the broodlords. If you poke and back off without getting fungalled then you can be patient. The moment the broodlords move to a new position they will begin to stack and when you see them stacking you drop a vortex immediately. Try to move the archons in from the side to get in the vortex so while you prepare to vortex, seperate the archons from your main army and move them to the side so that they can hop in the vortex easily without being blocked by your own units.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-28 20:22:10
March 28 2012 20:18 GMT
#910
Lategame PvZ:

If Z gives you all the time you need, you want to be working towards a composition of a mothership, about 5 carriers, 3-5 void rays, 4 templar (more if less than max energy--need enough energy to feedback infestors and have a few storms left for corruptors) and the rest of your supply in archons and probes.

The carriers are there to provide ranged AA to focus down broodlords from safety and everything else in the composition is basically to support your carriers. Vortex+storms+archons keeps corruptors at bay in an open field, and it's even easier with cannon cover.

I'd say that the top priority in a battle is feedbacking infestors followed by getting a good vortex. Try to focus your carriers and voids on broodlords and your archons on corruptors.

How to get there:

You want to start a fleet beacon when Z starts hive. You really want to have a stargate before they start hive, so have that in mind if you think the game will go late. You can fight broodlord-infestor with just a mothership and your normal ground army, but think of that as an emergency option. It's usually better to posture around the map and counter-attack to buy time until you have a strong air composition. It's better to sacrifice a base than to engage with an army that won't win.
monk
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States8476 Posts
March 29 2012 08:50 GMT
#911
On March 28 2012 12:52 TyrionSC2 wrote:
I wasn't talking about a gateway expand.
If you read any of the posts you'd see that I've been responding to this frequently.

I was talking about forge expand into chrono stalkers...
Referencing hero vs curious last night on dual sight.

But you can also make terrible posts like taht one too nice try.

Hero never did this vs curious on dual sight. He gateway expanded twice.
Moderator
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-29 18:59:16
March 29 2012 18:58 GMT
#912
Remember how people used to do the +1 zealot attack accompanied with voidrays? The one that hits a little later around 8:30-9 with 8 zealots and 2 vrs. What about doing something similar except with immortals? Obv the main plus of voidrays is that its easier to actually get them to zergs base because they're flying, but immortals are better units in general and it could lead to an interesting situation vs the standard roach counter.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
March 29 2012 19:08 GMT
#913
On March 30 2012 03:58 Drowsy wrote:
Remember how people used to do the +1 zealot attack accompanied with voidrays? The one that hits a little later around 8:30-9 with 8 zealots and 2 vrs. What about doing something similar except with immortals? Obv the main plus of voidrays is that its easier to actually get them to zergs base because they're flying, but immortals are better units in general and it could lead to an interesting situation vs the standard roach counter.

I've done a LITTLE bit of experimenting with that, and... well, Immortals are scary. Going for the Immortals has one huge weakness, though: you can't split up your army. The real bonus to Void Rays is the ability to warp Zealots into the Zerg main and to completely take over if you manage to snipe all the Spores and Queens in an area. However, if anything goes wrong with the Immortal push, you're going to suddenly lose everything and the game will pretty much be over. I forget the exact timings, but I remember being able to work in some Sentries to the build, which obviously helps a lot. The main thing is to keep your army together and to keep your Immortals alive. Maybe mixing in a Warp Prism would improve the build?
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
March 29 2012 19:12 GMT
#914
WP would give you that vision, no? And mean that you don't need a proxy pylon, vulnerable to lings, for warp-ins.

The +1 would benefit the Immortals too (+22/+55). I don't know the timings though of 2 Immortals and WP compared to 2 Void Rays. You only have so many chronoboosts to spend at that point in the game between Nexus, Core, Forge, Robo Bay etc.
KT best KT ~ 2014
Trusty
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand520 Posts
March 29 2012 21:58 GMT
#915
On March 30 2012 04:12 aZealot wrote:
WP would give you that vision, no? And mean that you don't need a proxy pylon, vulnerable to lings, for warp-ins.

The +1 would benefit the Immortals too (+22/+55). I don't know the timings though of 2 Immortals and WP compared to 2 Void Rays. You only have so many chronoboosts to spend at that point in the game between Nexus, Core, Forge, Robo Bay etc.


I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but basically you're hitting around 8:45 with WP/immo/zealot +1.

+1 zealot voidray can hit as early as 8:00-8:10 if done perfectly, with 5-6 zealots and 1 VR.
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
March 30 2012 08:51 GMT
#916
I'm not sure if it has been posted, but I just saw a VoD from MLG on Tal'Darim Altar where JYP beat DRG's Roach push.
http://sc2casts.com/cast7911-JYP-vs-Dongraegu-Best-of-3-MLG-Winter-Championship-Pool-play#
It's Game 2
He opened with a fast +1 and 4gate zealot pressure off of a FFE. The zealot pressure did minimal damage; though JYP followed up with a fast TC (he got it while the 3 extra gates for the zealot pressure were building), with fast blink and +2 (with +3 directly after attack, he then added his third and 4 more gates, along with a robo (he also got hallu a bit earlier for scouting). The roach attack arrived at ~12:40 with DRG at max and JYP at ~120 supply; DRG was overwhelmed by a Blink stalker sentry force, but still managed to snipe the third base. After JYP cleaned up the remaining forces, he counter pushes with his blink stalkers, and took the game.
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
March 30 2012 17:32 GMT
#917
On March 28 2012 18:25 Nyast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2012 11:52 Supah wrote:
In that Ret vs. Sase game, we can all pretty much agree that Ret threw the game rather than Sase playing brilliantly, right? Provided we can even safely take a "very" early third, what's the next step? Zerg notices it, alters to not Roach spam and then instead techs/expands/drones/spines up. Does anyone have experience with that style of reaction?


Yesterday I played 3-4 games versus a Zerg friend who's master 1000, and we tested this style of fast third vs fast hive.

I'm now pretty convinced there's no solid way to punish Zerg for doing that.

He got his first brood lords morphing around 14', which is 30s earlier than I had mentionned. Behind a huge wall of spines, mass lings and infestors.

The timing to push/punish the Zerg is around 11'. At 11'30 he has his spines walls, mass lings and 10+ infestors ready. But here's the problem: before 11'30, your army is tiny

There's no way you can attack after 11'30 and trade efficiently without splash damage. And guess what, using that fast third, you can't get colossi that fast..


I'd like to see more high level exploration of warp prism dts as a response to a Z taking a fourth and teching straight to Blords. I am referring to fast fourths from Z in response to a fast third from P.

At diamond-level, I always take fast thirds and I have success with 2 prisms, or a proxy pylon and a prism, and dts as a response to fast fourth/quick hive tech. I can hold a third, harass the 4th and snipe tech buildings with dts in the main. I don't expect to snipe the morphing hive, but I sometimes do.

During this dt harass, I take a fourth and cannon up while teching to Mothership/archon.

People have been throwing around the numbers for Z straight-teching to blords off of 4 bases as though P has no options to slow this down. I find that fast teching Zerg are often horribly underprepared for dealing with harassment.

Furthermore, I'll echo KCDC and Monk in noting that blords just aren't nearly as scary when I have three saturated bases by 13 minutes. Those first blords are so immobile and by the time they are morphing, toss economy is so strong that you can afford to lose units by harassing: force the Z to move his ground army away from the broods to deal with harass and whittle down the roach/ling.

I feel that the immobility of blords is exacerbated when toss has a fast third and fourth as I can afford to be active with my army, forcing him to be defensive with his blords.
Mercurial#1193
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-30 17:54:40
March 30 2012 17:54 GMT
#918
On March 30 2012 17:51 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
I'm not sure if it has been posted, but I just saw a VoD from MLG on Tal'Darim Altar where JYP beat DRG's Roach push.
http://sc2casts.com/cast7911-JYP-vs-Dongraegu-Best-of-3-MLG-Winter-Championship-Pool-play#
It's Game 2
He opened with a fast +1 and 4gate zealot pressure off of a FFE. The zealot pressure did minimal damage; though JYP followed up with a fast TC (he got it while the 3 extra gates for the zealot pressure were building), with fast blink and +2 (with +3 directly after attack, he then added his third and 4 more gates, along with a robo (he also got hallu a bit earlier for scouting). The roach attack arrived at ~12:40 with DRG at max and JYP at ~120 supply; DRG was overwhelmed by a Blink stalker sentry force, but still managed to snipe the third base. After JYP cleaned up the remaining forces, he counter pushes with his blink stalkers, and took the game.


this would never have worked if drg didn't waste the rest of his army trying to get into the natural.
jyp barely managed to defend and do a counter allin, was also his only option.

had drg just saved 10-20 supply of his attack force he would have easily crushed jyp
mistake
Profile Joined February 2011
United States13 Posts
March 30 2012 18:21 GMT
#919
This is kind of obvious, but building placement seems to benefit AND hurt you vs this specific style. Roaches have range now, they can hit your buildings and kill them without taking any kind of significant damage. The key here seems to be stopping the first push. If the first push does damage, you're basically dead. If you can kill at least half of the first push without losing any sentries or immortals you'll be in good shape.

So it is then obvious that you don't want to defend behind your wall of buildings. You have +1 zealots at this timing, zerglings aren't exactly the enemy here, as their cost effectiveness is much less than the +1 speed roaches. On a map like daybreak, you'll need to engage at the natural ramp. Even if there isn't a ramp, you need to engage outside of your wall, because your cyber core, forge, and gateway can and will get sniped if you choose to engage behind your wall. This might sound ridiculous, but no one has tried it. You won't get surrounded, you can always retreat with your back against a wall which, ideally, the zerg doesn't like (unless he is trading extremely favorably). You're getting hammered from the front anyway, try to defend it from a different position.

TL DR - Positioning on engaging the first push at your natural ramp, or anywhere not behind your own wall because roaches can snipe your early tech (cyber core, forge, gateway).
Fairchild
Profile Joined February 2011
133 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-31 03:40:45
March 31 2012 03:36 GMT
#920
On March 26 2012 07:22 fastr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2012 07:15 NrGmonk wrote:
On March 26 2012 07:03 fastr wrote:
On March 26 2012 06:51 Allred wrote:
On March 26 2012 06:39 fastr wrote:
On March 26 2012 05:18 NrGmonk wrote:
On March 26 2012 04:51 fastr wrote:
Just throwing that outthere without too much thinking in it, but have somebody tried something like ffe into double robo, and taking the third around 10:30 with like 5 immortals 5 sentry and a few cannons (only assuming the composition, probably need to be tested)?

It is now pretty common to see fast double robo in pvp, why not trying it in pvz? I feel that with 5+ immortals and good forcefields, even a maxed roach army shouldnt causes too much trouble. Just beware of the mutas switch as your stalker count will be low, but with 2 robos you should have enough observers to see it coming.


Then muta or ling roach infestor kills you.



All the units composition you gave relies on t2 tech (muta/infestor/hydra). With a fast double robo and multiple observers, I fail to see how it is possible to not scout a fast spire or infestation pit, which I think are the only 2 options that would hard-counter this build. If you see a spire, just stop immortals production, get some stalker and react like you would normally do. Infestor lings timing might be harder to defend, but imo switching into zealot/sentry should enable you to survive. Concerning hydralisk, I can't see how it would causes an issue, as immortals + ff ravages roach/hydra off creep.


I might be wrong but I think that protoss has still unexploited options to play against this stephano style. Genius stargate play seems pretty strong, 2 robos should be at least tested, as i have never seen it in a pro game.



i am pretty sure if you go double robo the mutas will hit before you will have enough time to respond


Spire : 120 ingame seconds
Mutalisk : 33 ingame seconds
Time for mutas to come into your base : at least 30 ingame seconds

Again, 2 robo, at least 2 observers, easy scouting. Are you sure that in 3 minutes you can't warp 10 stalker and make 2 cannons to defend against 8 mutalisks? Just saying.

edit: on 2 bases, i'm pretty sure you can afford 2 robos and 3 gates for immortals + sentry/stalker production. But like I said, it needs some testing.

You will just straight up die to mutas if your infrastructure is only 3 gates when mutas show up. You'll also have a close to impossible time trying to defend 3 bases with no twilight, a smaller number of gates, and lots of immortals. 2 blind robos is just too much of an investment just to try to blind counter one particular strategy.


Yes indeed, you won't be able to defend 3 bases with 3 gates against mutas. But if the zerg is going mutalisks, I think you can stall on 2 bases for a few minutes while teching to HT. You will be behind, but not out of the game. I'm not saying 2 robos should be standard, but if 80% of zerg on ladder are doing the stephano build which I think is the case, why not trying to take advantage of it?



Hi! So I was (got demoted recently) a low master Zerg player, and I love to play stephano style vs FFE protoss.

I like the idea of super heavy immortal production simply because the build relies on heavily upgraded masses of roaches pretty early. Good stuff.

But here is the thing, If im playing a stephano style game vs protoss FFE and I notice a lot of immortals early, or scout the double robo, I'm not going to mass mutas because the low gateway count, and high robo investment. I'm going to just not make roaches and mass a gross amount of speedlings + throw down a bane nest asap.

Colossi are an option, but not if you want a well timed 3rd base, and not if you wanna pressure the Zerg player. Simply throwing down a macro hatch and getting +1 melee started is going to put me into a relatively good position as your gas isn't going into Sentries or Templar tech, it's going into immortals which blow chunks vs mass slings w/ banes. With minimal FF sling/bling is an extremely effective unit comp vs toss, and the mobility advantage it gives you makes for denying a 3rd base that much easier.

Should Protoss invest further into tech (robo support bay) before being able to safely secure a 3rd, Zerg has that much more time to take another base and throw down a spire, as robo tech typically demands anyway.


tl;dr
double robo tech on 2 bases, especially immortal, is pretty easy to counter by throwing down a bane nest + macro hatch. This isn't a huge deviation from the go-to stephano style roach build. Less sentries = more bane hits landing on an already small gateway army.
Prev 1 44 45 46 47 48 78 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
10:00
Season 1: Playoffs Day 5
Clem vs ReynorLIVE!
Crank 1367
Tasteless936
ComeBackTV 855
IndyStarCraft 145
Rex126
3DClanTV 69
IntoTheiNu 43
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Crank 1367
Tasteless 936
RotterdaM 187
IndyStarCraft 145
Rex 126
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 26728
Sea 20943
Rain 5796
Bisu 2927
Jaedong 786
Hyuk 757
Light 652
Pusan 642
firebathero 432
Mini 422
[ Show more ]
Stork 284
actioN 276
Zeus 261
EffOrt 233
Soulkey 189
Backho 179
Hyun 166
ToSsGirL 142
hero 96
Mind 62
Snow 50
JYJ43
sSak 33
Shinee 28
Sharp 24
Aegong 24
Sacsri 23
sorry 22
JulyZerg 20
Icarus 19
sas.Sziky 18
Rush 18
Noble 16
Free 14
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
NaDa 10
Sexy 10
Hm[arnc] 9
yabsab 9
IntoTheRainbow 7
Movie 6
SilentControl 5
ivOry 3
Dota 2
Gorgc6744
XaKoH 582
XcaliburYe361
League of Legends
singsing1693
Counter-Strike
x6flipin544
allub257
flusha161
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor165
Other Games
tarik_tv24695
B2W.Neo868
shahzam626
crisheroes576
DeMusliM404
Fuzer 275
Liquid`RaSZi162
Pyrionflax139
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick27245
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 703
lovetv 7
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt501
Upcoming Events
OSC
1h 19m
Replay Cast
12h 19m
RSL Revival
22h 19m
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 4h
OSC
1d 8h
RSL Revival
1d 22h
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.