EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 50
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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 04 2012 06:45 TangSC wrote: I can't recall ever maxing out with Roaches before 11 Minutes...but I'm going to try right now! In age of empires series there used to these perfect build order competitions from time to time and the winning time was always much faster then you expected. Of course you do have to play at super slow to manage the perfect time. Fastest max out would probably be something like 3 queens 3 hatches, 45-50 ish drones and only lings not getting any tech but that's a bit lame. With the rules that you need to go pool before hatch, get 2 sets of lings when pool finishes, finish lair around 8:00 and go roaches + have an evo chamber the fastest time is probably going to be around 10 mins I think but you'll have to play really well. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 04 2012 07:04 Markwerf wrote: In age of empires series there used to these perfect build order competitions from time to time and the winning time was always much faster then you expected. Of course you do have to play at super slow to manage the perfect time. Fastest max out would probably be something like 3 queens 3 hatches, 45-50 ish drones and only lings not getting any tech but that's a bit lame. With the rules that you need to go pool before hatch, get 2 sets of lings when pool finishes, finish lair around 8:00 and go roaches + have an evo chamber the fastest time is probably going to be around 10 mins I think but you'll have to play really well. ok let's see how fast we can get roach speed, +1 and max roach! 2 lings when pool is done is a requirement! no spores either, cause fuck'em that's why. edit: use cloud kingdom i guess? got just over 11 minutes but i got gas starved pretty bad close to the end so will make an adjustment and see what happens | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 04 2012 07:09 Alejandrisha wrote: ok let's see how fast we can get roach speed, +1 and max roach! 2 lings when pool is done is a requirement! no spores either, cause fuck'em that's why. edit: use cloud kingdom i guess? got just over 11 minutes but i got gas starved pretty bad close to the end so will make an adjustment and see what happens ye i think rules should be: cloud kingdom pool before hatch 2 lings when pool is done roach warren and evo before 7min, lair before 8min, +1 ranged attack and roach speed done before max out I'm terrible at zerg but gave it a shot anyways and managed only 11:40 so i think something like 9:50 is probably doable if you're near flawless. edit: perfect solution will probably include a macro hatch, with 3 hatches you need an extra overlord because otherwise you have 198/198 so 4th hatch will probably barely be worth it. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On April 04 2012 07:00 HelloSon wrote: what does Stephano do against quick colossus? like FFE, gate, robo? does he stop roach and go straight muta? I bet he just flank, i saw him doing that in ladder aganist collo. On April 04 2012 06:01 kcdc wrote: I'm coming around to the conclusion that all-in roulette is a stronger way to play the MU. Z is straight up stronger in midgame, and with so few (any?) builds that can consistently hold a third against roach spam, it's inevitable that Z will come up with some curveballs that wreck the limited options that roach spam leaves open. In related news, I think it's time for me to pick up some new games. All-in roulette in PvZ and PvP makes for a boring SC2. Agree 100%. With everything. The desing in sc2 is so shitty that it leads to a pretty hard to balance situation. PvP is a stupid coinflip, certain builds blindly lead to adventage. Z's can take an almost unpunished 3rd super fast (and as mr DRG said, it needs much less training cose is always the same build), and then get better economy, production and a bigger, faster and efficient army. And after months of abusing the insane income generated by mules in only 1 base, Terrans now learn the power of 2+ orbitals plus a lot of super efficient options to slowly turn again the match up in their side. I got sadly tired of the bad design of sc2. I will play dota2 with friends and ocasionally sc2, till HotS get released and i have confidence that the game will change for a much better design balance... or i become z, lol. I said it like 3 times in this thread: the best option statiscally for P to win the match up, is to make a very well executed (tight macro, perfect micro, blinding z scout, and with fake pressure) 8-11min timing, depending on the map, to win or at least take the 3rd plus drones. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On April 04 2012 07:21 Belha wrote: I bet he just flank, i saw him doing that in ladder aganist collo. Agree 100%. With everything. The desing in sc2 is so shitty that it leads to a pretty hard to balance situation. PvP is a stupid coinflip, certain builds blindly lead to adventage. Z's can take an almost unpunished 3rd super fast (and as mr DRG said, it needs much less training cose is always the same build), and then get better economy, production and a bigger, faster and efficient army. And after months of abusing the insane income generated by mules in only 1 base, Terrans now learn the power of 2+ orbitals plus a lot of super efficient options to slowly turn again the match up in their side. I got sadly tired of the bad design of sc2. I will play dota2 with friends and ocasionally sc2, till HotS get released and i have confidence that the game will change for a much better design balance... or i become z, lol. I said it like 3 times in this thread: the best option statiscally for P to win the match up, is to make a very well executed (tight macro, perfect micro, blinding z scout, and with fake pressure) 8-11min timing, depending on the map, to win or at least take the 3rd plus drones. Or zerg will realise at some point that the timings they have been using are slightly too greedy and will be slightly less greedy which in turn lets P do better by going a third themselves instead of pressuring again. It's also just the flavor of the month considering the least veto'd maps of this season tend to favor this style. If daybreak etc. get's included and played we will see this style much less because it just isn't as good there, maxing out on roach on that map is much easier to counter for P and they can just push before Z has the time to get hive tech rolling then (exactly like genius vs DRG gsl finals went). And pvp is not that coinflippy at all at the moment, the most popular build, blink robo, doesn't have any big edges against builds.. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 04 2012 07:21 Markwerf wrote: ye i think rules should be: cloud kingdom pool before hatch 2 lings when pool is done roach warren and evo before 7min, lair before 8min, +1 ranged attack and roach speed done before max out I'm terrible at zerg but gave it a shot anyways and managed only 11:40 so i think something like 9:50 is probably doable if you're near flawless. edit: perfect solution will probably include a macro hatch, with 3 hatches you need an extra overlord because otherwise you have 198/198 so 4th hatch will probably barely be worth it. just got 198/198 10:54 with lair started at 7 mins warren and evo starting at 7:20, +1 and roach speed started as soon as those buildings finished. should go with standard gas first 2 gas timings at 40-45 food imo, but lately zergs have been delaying these a bit more so but we'll play by the book  i don't think a macro hatch is necessary 10:50 was the best i could get. i think only way down from there is actually being a robot. i'm doing my best do be a robot but i'm not quite there yet tt | ||
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ChrysaliS_
United States261 Posts
On April 04 2012 07:00 HelloSon wrote: what does Stephano do against quick colossus? like FFE, gate, robo? does he stop roach and go straight muta? He does the same thing and wins because you'll be sitting at 100 food 3 colossus trying to defend 3 bases while he shows up with 200 food roaches and stomps all over you. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
Maybe it's a sign it's time to play roulette (all-in 2base mixups) | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On April 04 2012 06:01 kcdc wrote: I'm coming around to the conclusion that all-in roulette is a stronger way to play the MU. Z is straight up stronger in midgame, and with so few (any?) builds that can consistently hold a third against roach spam, it's inevitable that Z will come up with some curveballs that wreck the limited options that roach spam leaves open. In related news, I think it's time for me to pick up some new games. All-in roulette in PvZ and PvP makes for a boring SC2. Have you tried drastically different openings? Zerg seems to be getting good mileage from substantially delaying gas for fast early unit production. Going up to three hatch & pool is about as expensive as going up to four gate two nexus (not counting the cost of Queens), and the latter can apply an awful lot of pressure against the former, preventing the Zerg from pumping drones. Four gates are actually probably more production than you can use so early, if you're skipping Forge + Cannon (since you'll have a lot of zealots to defend with and hopefully shouldn't need the cannon), but the basic concept of two base no-gas Zealot pressure with very delayed gas should offer enough pressure to punish early expands. This is pure speculation. But if Protoss's tech lead (which comes naturally out of Forge FE against three base Zerg) isn't enough to compete with a three-base Zerg economy, perhaps kicking the aggression up another notch is the answer. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On April 04 2012 09:28 Severedevil wrote: Have you tried drastically different openings? Zerg seems to be getting good mileage from substantially delaying gas for fast early unit production. Going up to three hatch & pool is about as expensive as going up to four gate two nexus (not counting the cost of Queens), and the latter can apply an awful lot of pressure against the former, preventing the Zerg from pumping drones. Four gates are actually probably more production than you can use so early, if you're skipping Forge + Cannon (since you'll have a lot of zealots to defend with and hopefully shouldn't need the cannon), but the basic concept of two base no-gas Zealot pressure with very delayed gas should offer enough pressure to punish early expands. This is pure speculation. But if Protoss's tech lead (which comes naturally out of Forge FE against three base Zerg) isn't enough to compete with a three-base Zerg economy, perhaps kicking the aggression up another notch is the answer. the problem here is how risky that is, if you lose your army you instantly lose the game...in addition to that your ffe is going to leave you with a weaker army than the zergs (so long as they scout) the whole point of the stephano build is to be safe against all aggression coming out of an ffe while maxing out quickly on roaches with upgrades...though there might be some immortal sentry timings but those would just get rolled by muta QQ | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 04 2012 06:01 kcdc wrote: I'm coming around to the conclusion that all-in roulette is a stronger way to play the MU. Z is straight up stronger in midgame, and with so few (any?) builds that can consistently hold a third against roach spam, it's inevitable that Z will come up with some curveballs that wreck the limited options that roach spam leaves open. In related news, I think it's time for me to pick up some new games. All-in roulette in PvZ and PvP makes for a boring SC2. What exactly is it that is leaving you feeling as though the ridiculously fast third isn't viable? Edit: We've seen a number of replays of the fast third working against a zerg who gets a fast third. Are there replays as well where it just gets crushed by something we weren't really considering? | ||
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Nihonjin
66 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 04 2012 23:22 Nihonjin wrote: The maps in the pool are not really that viable for fast third as said by many. Unless you can completely wall off the third it will simply get a moved by streams of roaches because of lack of unit. How many of those "many" put most of their warpgates in their main? 7 warpgates and a forge early and adding additional structures once the third finishes is a lot of building to block chokes with. I suppose the problem, then, becomes hydras. On April 04 2012 23:59 Decendos wrote: have you ever tried going FFE into 1 gate robo, then grab 3rd at about 7:00-8:00, add 3 more gates @3rd to wall off + 1-2 cannons. after that get TC and another 3-x gates and just get a nice sentry stalker immo army? saw grubby do something like that on his stream last week and i think thats the way to go since you can wall off in time, have blink + immortals in time and lots of sentrys + you have mined for about 3 mins from your 3rd until the big roach push is incoming, meaning you can get a lot more units (especially more gasheavy units by taking fast 5th and 6th gas). This exact build is in the OP. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On April 04 2012 23:08 Treehead wrote: What exactly is it that is leaving you feeling as though the ridiculously fast third isn't viable? Edit: We've seen a number of replays of the fast third working against a zerg who gets a fast third. Are there replays as well where it just gets crushed by something we weren't really considering? It sounds like to me he just wants a "standard" macro build which is simply not possible due to zerg mechanics. Even if you don't factor in zerg larve mechanics, the sheer fact they can get a 3rd base up significantly earlier than Protoss means you're going to be behind economically mid-game in the standard FFE vs 3 hatch scenario. kcdc seems to be hung up on his belief that a zerg would "get used to any timing" and optimally defend it and then it will somehow becomes useless forever or something. But let's step back a moment and look at this from a game balance perspective and ask ourselves is there anything really wrong with that? If Zerg plays perfect he should be able to stop it. Which brings me to my point, that you have to mix things up. Of course you can be a half glass empty kind of guy and just say it is "roulette" and say it's boring or you can have fun with it and call it "mind games." And to be completely honest, unless you are a pro-gamer or play in a lot of tournaments where you will run into a lot of the same zergs you don't even need to do that. So of course such a macro-defensive style will seem very hard to stop if the zerg knows exactly what you are going to do, but random zergs on ladder aren't going to know what type of pressure you are going to do right out of the gate. And this is why I'm not a fan of the no pressure into fast 3rd builds. Zergs can easily scout fast 3rd builds the instant you throw them down with overlords/lings and at that point, while you may be able to hold your 3rd, you are banking on outplaying your opponent. I've watched ranged's replays, and I'm not completely convinced as there are a myriad of options for zerg to bust your 3rd, not just pure roach spam (e.g. double warren for fast burrow movement, fast BLs, or even straight 3-base into mutas is possible since there's no pressure). Fast 3rd builds IMO are much better if for example you've already set the tone in earlier games vs the same opponent by being super aggressive, then faking pressure into a 3rd. If they overreact and make a lot of units to some fake pressure now you'll be in a much better position to defend your 3rd as the roach bust will be later and/or weaker. But again that goes back to the whole mind game thing. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
unfortunately it doesnt get better even when you are able to defend the third base. well controlled broodlord infestor is even scarier than the 200 supply roaches and after stephano showed that you can get to the composition by simply building millions of spine crawler in the midgame, you cant even kill the zerg before he reaches that composition. i honestly hope that someone figures out some new strategies. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 05 2012 02:05 Skyro wrote: It sounds like to me he just wants a "standard" macro build which is simply not possible due to zerg mechanics. Even if you don't factor in zerg larve mechanics, the sheer fact they can get a 3rd base up significantly earlier than Protoss means you're going to be behind economically mid-game in the standard FFE vs 3 hatch scenario. kcdc seems to be hung up on his belief that a zerg would "get used to any timing" and optimally defend it and then it will somehow becomes useless forever or something. But let's step back a moment and look at this from a game balance perspective and ask ourselves is there anything really wrong with that? If Zerg plays perfect he should be able to stop it. Which brings me to my point, that you have to mix things up. Of course you can be a half glass empty kind of guy and just say it is "roulette" and say it's boring or you can have fun with it and call it "mind games." And to be completely honest, unless you are a pro-gamer or play in a lot of tournaments where you will run into a lot of the same zergs you don't even need to do that. So of course such a macro-defensive style will seem very hard to stop if the zerg knows exactly what you are going to do, but random zergs on ladder aren't going to know what type of pressure you are going to do right out of the gate. And this is why I'm not a fan of the no pressure into fast 3rd builds. Zergs can easily scout fast 3rd builds the instant you throw them down with overlords/lings and at that point, while you may be able to hold your 3rd, you are banking on outplaying your opponent. I've watched ranged's replays, and I'm not completely convinced as there are a myriad of options for zerg to bust your 3rd, not just pure roach spam (e.g. double warren for fast burrow movement, fast BLs, or even straight 3-base into mutas is possible since there's no pressure). Fast 3rd builds IMO are much better if for example you've already set the tone in earlier games vs the same opponent by being super aggressive, then faking pressure into a 3rd. If they overreact and make a lot of units to some fake pressure now you'll be in a much better position to defend your 3rd as the roach bust will be later and/or weaker. But again that goes back to the whole mind game thing. That's all well and good, and you may be right - but the particular style of build I was talking about held an early third with blink stalkers and a few sentries, teched to storm after that if no roach allin (and the option to go DTs if you want), and built a MShip and went air if it looked like the game would go late. Considering that BL/Infestor isn't possible until much later than mutas, roaches or hydras (all of which stalkers and sentries can deal with reasonably), isn't this solid against more or less any build? Certainly sounds that way - though maybe that's not how it measures up, and that's what I'm trying to assess. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On April 04 2012 23:08 Treehead wrote: What exactly is it that is leaving you feeling as though the ridiculously fast third isn't viable? Edit: We've seen a number of replays of the fast third working against a zerg who gets a fast third. Are there replays as well where it just gets crushed by something we weren't really considering? On April 04 2012 23:08 Treehead wrote: What exactly is it that is leaving you feeling as though the ridiculously fast third isn't viable? Edit: We've seen a number of replays of the fast third working against a zerg who gets a fast third. Are there replays as well where it just gets crushed by something we weren't really considering? I think going fast third is viable, but I'm not convinced that it's especially strong. Having tested the fast third blink build a fair amount now, it's still really hard to defend the roach timing even tho the build is an attempt to optimize defense of that roach timing. And it's not like holding the third puts you in a commanding position. If Z attacks with 60 drones and you defend cleanly, you're slightly ahead. If you take some damage or Z drones to 70 before attacking, you're even. If Z doesn't bother trying to bust your third and instead goes quick hive, I'm not even sure you're even. It seems like if you want to win as often as possible, you should focus on perfecting a variety of 2-base all-ins that will keep Z guessing and mix in a fast third build to keep his defense honest. I'm not saying there aren't strong PvZ builds. It just seems like PvZ is turning into PvP where you pick a build, execute it as well as you can, and hope. I personally don't find that type of play very fun. I'll be interested to see if HotS brings some new, fun options. | ||
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