EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 52
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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On April 05 2012 09:03 chestnutcc wrote: Because I don't care that he went on a tangent. If someone else points out that they are on a tangent, and they object to that, power to them man, especially since your post contributed exactly nothing to this thread or kcdc's tangent. I know I said I wasn't going to talk about this anymore after my last post, but I can't help but ask why you didn't critizie mumphel for his post that "contributed exactly nothing to this thread or kcdc's tangent." but chose to address mine? Did your post berating me contribute something useful? Why not more power to me? Rhetorical questions so no need to answer ... you need to think through your logic a bit more. Now back to discussing something actually useful ... | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On April 05 2012 08:09 mumpfel wrote: Stop talking about PvP. This threat is about PvZ and even blue posters should stick to the topic. puppies | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On April 05 2012 09:25 whoopadeedoo wrote: I know I said I wasn't going to talk about this anymore after my last thread, but I can't help but ask why you didn't berate mumphel for his post that "contributed exactly nothing to this thread or kcdc's tangent." but chose to address mine? Did your post berating me contribute something useful? Why not more power to me? Rhetorical questions so no need to answer ... you need to think through your logic a bit more. Now back to discussing something actually useful ... Because he wasn't acting all mortified at a legitimate post and oh so wondering whether they were new and going to get banned, and how all of us enjoy the lovely high level players' banter. Like I said, ass kisser. | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
The OP has a bunch of ideas that were suggested in it, but no conclusions from testing, and I'm wondering if you have anything more to add. I've been experimenting with the suggestion of a really fast third with 4 gate robo and hallucination over immortals, and I've found that I have around a 80-90% success rate of holding off heavy roach all-ins stephano style, but I've had a ton of trouble dealing with roach hydra play and muta play with this build. | ||
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
I'll continue testing different things out, if I find anything more conclusive, I'll be sure to post. Just thought I'd share in case nobody else has been trying this and people were looking for other things to test out  | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On April 05 2012 13:46 soLremarK wrote: I've been experimenting a lot with a 1-gate expand off of an FFE - that is, taking a 3rd base off of 1-gate. I use a chronoboosted stalker for early map control, to deny scouting, and then put down the 3rd and start setting up my sim-city and defensive cannons ASAP. It needs some more work, and I'm still figuring out timings a bit, but I've been able to hold off a lot of different attacks and max out really quickly (13-14 minutes with +2, blink, and a decent amount of immortals out). I think this *might* be the best way to go, because it hits at a time when a Zerg's offensive capabilities are at a relatively weak stage. I'll continue testing different things out, if I find anything more conclusive, I'll be sure to post. Just thought I'd share in case nobody else has been trying this and people were looking for other things to test out How do you hold off 2 base roach all-ins or baneling bust all-ins, or even 2 base mutas? | ||
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ipwntbarney
United States141 Posts
On April 05 2012 13:46 soLremarK wrote: I've been experimenting a lot with a 1-gate expand off of an FFE - that is, taking a 3rd base off of 1-gate. I use a chronoboosted stalker for early map control, to deny scouting, and then put down the 3rd and start setting up my sim-city and defensive cannons ASAP. It needs some more work, and I'm still figuring out timings a bit, but I've been able to hold off a lot of different attacks and max out really quickly (13-14 minutes with +2, blink, and a decent amount of immortals out). I think this *might* be the best way to go, because it hits at a time when a Zerg's offensive capabilities are at a relatively weak stage. I'll continue testing different things out, if I find anything more conclusive, I'll be sure to post. Just thought I'd share in case nobody else has been trying this and people were looking for other things to test out That's so absurdly greedy. Any sort of 2-base all-in would just destroy this... | ||
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RemarK
United States452 Posts
On April 05 2012 13:53 ipwntbarney wrote: That's so absurdly greedy. Any sort of 2-base all-in would just destroy this... Obviously, this is not a build you do if they haven't taken a 3rd... Edit: I should have been more clear in my original post, obviously, taking a 1-gate 3rd is probably not going to put you ahead vs any 2-base play. Of course, 2-base tech builds are almost completely nonexistent in the current metagame of ZvP, and 2-base all-ins like baneling bust / roach-ling are pretty easily scouted and responded to. Given that this entire topic is "how to deal with stephano style ZvP" there's no point in discussing other builds. | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
BTW this build was discussed a bit on pages 36-38 of this thread if you're looking for other perspectives. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On March 15 2012 15:53 kcdc wrote: I'm rethinking that conclusion that Z can be ahead by 70 supply no matter what you do. Ranged and I, among others, have been experimenting with taking a third between 6:30 and 8:00, and it seems possible to hit 140+ supply by 12 minutes which is when Z usually queues up the production round that pushes his supply to 200/200. Of course, that production round typically doesn't hit P's base for another minute, so the force that's at P's door at 12:00 is really a 170 supply army with 30 supply en route. With WG, P doesn't lose suffer the production time+travel distance penalty, so the 140 supply is a hard number. So with a very optimized build and near-perfect play, P might be able to find themselves down only ~30 or so supply at the point of attack. Perhaps you should use a different barometer to gauge relative army strength. +2 Blink Stalkers with good micro/engagements are roughly even with +1 roaches on a cost basis but it is roughly 3/5 the supply. I think army cost is a much better gauge. With a 6:45 third I could pump out 4Z/5Se/25St on 8 gates + robo with +3 on the way behind 70 Probes which is 138 supply. Army cost-wise that is about even with a heavy 170 supply roach army, and there are probably better compositions you could come up with. I'm still skeptical you could hold a 3rd that early though out of a FFE. Also another thing that might help you on your quest is comparing economy at each point in the game leading up to the 12-min max. With a FFE vs 3-hatch scenario up to 7 mins worker count is about even on both sides, but it is b/w this 7-8 min range where zerg explodes with 15-20 drones and runs away economy-wise. On the flipside protoss is roughly 60 to 90 secs behind in workers if you grabbed your 3rd @ 6:45-ish, being able to reach ~60 probes @ 9:30, though you probably want to cut probes closer to 70 as protoss. Now my point in all of this? That if your goal is to pressure or fake pressure to force units but then take a third behind this pressure rather than going more all-in and having to deal actual damage, your pressure must come before or between this 7-8 min period because if you hit after 8 mins it doesn't really matter because if they were going for the 12 min max roach push they would've already been cutting probes and making units at this point. It would be better to just go all-in and try to deal damage if you're hitting this late. If you are however able to fake pressure and trick them to making a big round of lings you are back on equal footing in terms of worker count if you didn't have to cut probes to pressure. This is of course assuming optimal timings. Now is it possible to pressure/fake pressure out of a FFE before 8 mins? I've never seen any threatening pressure from a FFE coming out that early while not significantly cutting Probes, but it is food for thought. I think the only real option here is actually to abuse the lack of early ling speed and make 2-3 stalkers and try to force as many early lings as possible while dealing what damage you can and indeed this is what many top korean protoss players have been doing as of late. You wouldn't need to cut Probes to do this type of pressure and it relies purely on your micro+macro multi-tasking abilities. However you can certainly pressure/fake pressure out a gate-nexus-core, faking a 3-gate 7 +1 zealots pushing out of your base @ 6 mins and then simply grabbing your 3rd behind this w/o warping in zealots, all w/ an equal worker count as a forge-first FFE, and you also have 3 warpgates up to defend your nexus. I do not understand the logic that you don't even want to contemplate a gate-nexus-core opening due to concerns about safety (which was created/popularized/vetted by a high masters EU protoss yuffe), but instead are trying things like a 6:30 3rd nexus out of a FFE which to me seems incredibly more risky. However I digress as you want to focus on FFE, so in the end I cannot really disagree that "2-base roulette" is your best chance (which has been my stance this whole time) unless you have some incredible stalker harass + macro multitasking. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
You can get MS faster than that timing in thread due to some game changes I guess, So far I've had success with it but this is just so strange that ppl dont know how to react. So far I rly like the build since it's giving me my 3rd base. Now when I think about it that mothership ain't gonna probably do shit if he has atleast 4 overseers since you wont have energy.. Guess I've won my games just because of surprise. | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
On April 05 2012 03:36 kcdc wrote: I think going fast third is viable, but I'm not convinced that it's especially strong. Having tested the fast third blink build a fair amount now, it's still really hard to defend the roach timing even tho the build is an attempt to optimize defense of that roach timing. And it's not like holding the third puts you in a commanding position. If Z attacks with 60 drones and you defend cleanly, you're slightly ahead. If you take some damage or Z drones to 70 before attacking, you're even. If Z doesn't bother trying to bust your third and instead goes quick hive, I'm not even sure you're even. It seems like if you want to win as often as possible, you should focus on perfecting a variety of 2-base all-ins that will keep Z guessing and mix in a fast third build to keep his defense honest. I'm not saying there aren't strong PvZ builds. It just seems like PvZ is turning into PvP where you pick a build, execute it as well as you can, and hope. I personally don't find that type of play very fun. I'll be interested to see if HotS brings some new, fun options. Am I missing something here or...if you're not going for some allin, you're pretty much agreeing to go to the late game. . That just seems to make sense. Going fast 3rd with blink and good control (not amazing, just good) will either put you, in your own words, 1) slightly ahead, 2) even, 3) dead, or 4) you don't know. Dead from dying to the timing and 4) being situations you just don't know about where the Z doesn't attack. My question is: How does that turn into - I need to allin every game. Of course, given that Z is pretty reactive, if you telegraph your plan and do the same builds for a month to the point where Z has your build timed out to the seconds in terms of roach warren finishing etc, they'll have some timings against it. But you just agreed you can still even hold these timings, as hard as they are. 2 base robo allins or blink allins are of course also tempting just because they're also really fucking strong...maybe even stronger then this roach timing, albeit more allin. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
no its not. in the OP there is a 4 gate + robo build into 3rd base. what i suggest is a 1 gate + robo into 3rd since your 2.-4. gate can be used to wall off and zerg wont have any units to stop your zealot + 2-3 sentrys at 7:00-7:30 to plant the 3rd + the extra gates + cannons. edit: just saw there is a 1 gate + robo expo in the OP but with +1 instead of blink. edit 2: OP said the build works, so could that be the solution to getting your 3rd up and go into the macro game? 3 base toss vs 4 base zerg (assuming he takes 4th if toss goes fast 3rd) is totaly fine since toss gets SO much better with extra gases. so if you can get your 3rd up with 1 gate + robo, you should be fine?! | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On April 05 2012 13:46 soLremarK wrote: I've been experimenting a lot with a 1-gate expand off of an FFE - that is, taking a 3rd base off of 1-gate. I use a chronoboosted stalker for early map control, to deny scouting, and then put down the 3rd and start setting up my sim-city and defensive cannons ASAP. It needs some more work, and I'm still figuring out timings a bit, but I've been able to hold off a lot of different attacks and max out really quickly (13-14 minutes with +2, blink, and a decent amount of immortals out). I think this *might* be the best way to go, because it hits at a time when a Zerg's offensive capabilities are at a relatively weak stage. I'll continue testing different things out, if I find anything more conclusive, I'll be sure to post. Just thought I'd share in case nobody else has been trying this and people were looking for other things to test out I suggested the same build with a build order and a replay about 10-20 pages ago. | ||
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NinjaMagic
Sweden83 Posts
This is kind of a long thread so ive only been reading parts of it, but not seeing yuFFE named. Just thought Id throw it out there. Midmaster protoss, so maybe it just doesnt work higher up. | ||
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neek
Netherlands51 Posts
im a top master protoss player on eu. btw i didn't read all comments here nor did i watch the replays but this is just my opinion on heavy roach pressure from zerg. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On April 05 2012 23:31 neek wrote: yes it is very hard to take a 3rd against this. but why take a 3rd when zerg is only making roaches and not teching at all?? just stay at 2 base and tech up. take 3rd when you scout for expample a infestation/spire/2 evo's. yes your 3rd is probably quite late but its not a problem when zerg has low tech. also you can go up to 60+ probes on 2base so you can immediately saturate your 3rd when its finished. im a top master protoss player on eu. btw i didn't read all comments here nor did i watch the replays but this is just my opinion on heavy roach pressure from zerg. The problem is Zerg can take 4+ bases behind a continual max supply of roaches, so if you don't win with 2 base timing attacks, you're going to lose to 4+ base zerg 10 minutes later. | ||
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