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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On April 05 2012 23:31 neek wrote:
yes it is very hard to take a 3rd against this. but why take a 3rd when zerg is only making roaches and not teching at all?? just stay at 2 base and tech up. take 3rd when you scout for expample a infestation/spire/2 evo's. yes your 3rd is probably quite late but its not a problem when zerg has low tech. also you can go up to 60+ probes on 2base so you can immediately saturate your 3rd when its finished.
im a top master protoss player on eu. btw i didn't read all comments here nor did i watch the replays but this is just my opinion on heavy roach pressure from zerg.
You sure you can support muta defense out of 2base? Against the muta harass that is well prepared out of roachbust.
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I did the 7 min third with 4 gate robo into 7 gate double robo and I managed to defend it (although taking some probe losses). However he just went for a base race, and at the end camped in his last base with a million spines and brood lords.... zerg is so ridiculous sometimes
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Why does everyone think we need an insanely fast third? Why can't we play the same kind of game we used to with 3 gate expand?
What's wrong with a 3rd at 11-12 minutes after and while constantly contesting map control? Pick a build which gets the sentry/blink/ immortal comp up, probably delaying blink in favor of +2.... Claim your half of the map and treat maxxed roaches like the old roach/long all-in...
The reason why Zergs hate gateway expand is they are on edge... Put Z back on edge!
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On April 06 2012 04:08 Kajarn wrote:
Why does everyone think we need an insanely fast third? Why can't we play the same kind of game we used to with 3 gate expand?
What's wrong with a 3rd at 11-12 minutes after and while constantly contesting map control? Pick a build which gets the sentry/blink/ immortal comp up, probably delaying blink in favor of +2.... Claim your half of the map and treat maxxed roaches like the old roach/long all-in...
The reason why Zergs hate gateway expand is the are on edge... But Z back on edge!
I haven't met many Zergs who hate gateway expanding, most like playing against it. FFE is more economical in every way, there are a select few gateway timings that hit a little faster but I think they are also a lot weaker and more committed because of your weaker economy.
The problem that applies to pretty much your whole post is that if you gateway expand, the Zerg probably isn't going to take a 4 minute third and go stephano style roaches (obviously, because you couldn't defend that vs 1-base play and you also couldn't drone freely for the first 8~ minutes of the game). In general vs a gateway expand, Zerg does this: hit 2-base saturation asap, make units and lair, take 3rd (and sometimes 4th) behind units while making 10-20 drones quickly to saturate the new base as it finishes. This style delays the Zerg max by a minute or two, but it also greatly delays your own max by an even larger factor because of how much less economical gateway expands are.
Delayed blink builds with a robo are also really weak against mutas, and 2-base muta works pretty well against gateway expands, especially in the current map pool.
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what you guys think of FFE into 2 Gate 4 Zealot pressure around 5min mark? just to force units.
Tyler used to do this alot quite long ago, 4 zealots (+0) can deal with quite alot of slow lings and can damage the third at least half of its health may be even force a cancel.
imho everything that comes after the third for Z is up is already to late he will have enough economy to waste units.
i am not very fond of the 7-8 min zealot +1 timing, because of that.
Especially keep the watch towers and denying Z vision should make zerg players alot more indecisive and less keen to produce huge rounds of drones.
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On April 06 2012 01:40 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 23:31 neek wrote:
yes it is very hard to take a 3rd against this. but why take a 3rd when zerg is only making roaches and not teching at all?? just stay at 2 base and tech up. take 3rd when you scout for expample a infestation/spire/2 evo's. yes your 3rd is probably quite late but its not a problem when zerg has low tech. also you can go up to 60+ probes on 2base so you can immediately saturate your 3rd when its finished.
im a top master protoss player on eu. btw i didn't read all comments here nor did i watch the replays but this is just my opinion on heavy roach pressure from zerg. The problem is Zerg can take 4+ bases behind a continual max supply of roaches, so if you don't win with 2 base timing attacks, you're going to lose to 4+ base zerg 10 minutes later.
yea, but now the zerg is completely maxed out on roaches, and your tech and upgrades have greatly increased within that 10 min time frame. The zerg would need to sacrifice quite the number of roaches to obtain free supply to get the critical number of broods/infestors. At that time when the trade happens, he can be extremely vulnerable to your deathball, with only roaches defending all of his bases and hes busy trying to form the broods and infestors.
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On April 06 2012 04:41 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 01:40 whoopadeedoo wrote:On April 05 2012 23:31 neek wrote:
yes it is very hard to take a 3rd against this. but why take a 3rd when zerg is only making roaches and not teching at all?? just stay at 2 base and tech up. take 3rd when you scout for expample a infestation/spire/2 evo's. yes your 3rd is probably quite late but its not a problem when zerg has low tech. also you can go up to 60+ probes on 2base so you can immediately saturate your 3rd when its finished.
im a top master protoss player on eu. btw i didn't read all comments here nor did i watch the replays but this is just my opinion on heavy roach pressure from zerg. The problem is Zerg can take 4+ bases behind a continual max supply of roaches, so if you don't win with 2 base timing attacks, you're going to lose to 4+ base zerg 10 minutes later. yea, but now the zerg is completely maxed out on roaches, and your tech and upgrades have greatly increased within that 10 min time frame. The zerg would need to sacrifice quite the number of roaches to obtain free supply to get the critical number of broods/infestors. At that time when the trade happens, he can be extremely vulnerable to your deathball, with only roaches defending all of his bases and hes busy trying to form the broods and infestors.
the problem is, the zerg can afford to lose units, because he is usually way ahead or can get ahead easily if you don't plan a sharp timing or keep him busy.
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On April 06 2012 04:25 soLremarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 04:08 Kajarn wrote:
Why does everyone think we need an insanely fast third? Why can't we play the same kind of game we used to with 3 gate expand?
What's wrong with a 3rd at 11-12 minutes after and while constantly contesting map control? Pick a build which gets the sentry/blink/ immortal comp up, probably delaying blink in favor of +2.... Claim your half of the map and treat maxxed roaches like the old roach/long all-in...
The reason why Zergs hate gateway expand is the are on edge... But Z back on edge! I haven't met many Zergs who hate gateway expanding, most like playing against it. FFE is more economical in every way, there are a select few gateway timings that hit a little faster but I think they are also a lot weaker and more committed because of your weaker economy. The problem that applies to pretty much your whole post is that if you gateway expand, the Zerg probably isn't going to take a 4 minute third and go stephano style roaches (obviously, because you couldn't defend that vs 1-base play and you also couldn't drone freely for the first 8~ minutes of the game). In general vs a gateway expand, Zerg does this: hit 2-base saturation asap, make units and lair, take 3rd (and sometimes 4th) behind units while making 10-20 drones quickly to saturate the new base as it finishes. This style delays the Zerg max by a minute or two, but it also greatly delays your own max by an even larger factor because of how much less economical gateway expands are. Delayed blink builds with a robo are also really weak against mutas, and 2-base muta works pretty well against gateway expands, especially in the current map pool.
I didn't make my post clear. What I meant to say is to FFE but play with the same shark mode mentality as 3gate expo.
Obviously we need to make an effort to hide tech and shutdown overlords...
I assumed it was understood that FFE was the norm.
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On April 06 2012 04:40 freetgy wrote:
what you guys think of FFE into 2 Gate 4 Zealot pressure around 5min mark? just to force units.
Tyler used to do this alot quite long ago, 4 zealots (+0) can deal with quite alot of slow lings and may be even delay a the third/ damage a third well.
imho everything that comes after the third for Z is up is already to late he will have enough economy to waste units.
i am not very fond of the 7-8 min zealot +1 timing, because of that.
that's just another timing like +1 zealot timing; zergs will scout for it, build the minimum amount of units and be ahead because we just sacrificed 400 minerals that early on a pressure timing. You will catch zergs off guard at first, but if everyone used that timing then zergs will adapt. What we're trying to look for is a build that allows us to be in a good position economically while being able to defend the crazy ass max roach play at 12 minutes. Now we can include pressure timings of course, but why cant pure defense be able to defend this, while taking in account the other unit compositions that zerg can muster at that time. The struggle is, that it seems w/o any pressure, the zerg will max out no matter what, and there isnt a reliable way of pressuring or rather limited options of pressuring. All ive seen are low gateway timings involving a ton of zealots or stargate play. When we look at how terran can pressure, they can pressure using any of their army structures, barracks for marine or reaper play with bunkers ofc, factory for hellions, or starport for banshees/medivacs.
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On April 06 2012 04:52 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 04:40 freetgy wrote:
what you guys think of FFE into 2 Gate 4 Zealot pressure around 5min mark? just to force units.
Tyler used to do this alot quite long ago, 4 zealots (+0) can deal with quite alot of slow lings and may be even delay a the third/ damage a third well.
imho everything that comes after the third for Z is up is already to late he will have enough economy to waste units.
i am not very fond of the 7-8 min zealot +1 timing, because of that. that's just another timing like +1 zealot timing; zergs will scout for it, build the minimum amount of units and be ahead because we just sacrificed 400 minerals that early on a pressure timing. You will catch zergs off guard at first, but if everyone used that timing then zergs will adapt. What we're trying to look for is a build that allows us to be in a good position economically while being able to defend the crazy ass max roach play at 12 minutes. Now we can include pressure timings of course, but why cant pure defense be able to defend this, while taking in account the other unit compositions that zerg can muster at that time. The struggle is, that it seems w/o any pressure, the zerg will max out no matter what, and there isnt a reliable way of pressuring or rather limited options of pressuring. All ive seen are low gateway timings involving a ton of zealots or stargate play. When we look at how terran can pressure, they can pressure using any of their army structures, barracks for marine or reaper play with bunkers ofc, factory for hellions, or starport for banshees/medivacs.
It's a complete and utter lack of scouting... And uneccessary fear. I'll explain:
Zerg can't have Mutas Tech 70 drones and maxx roaches at 12 minutes...
Zerg is not the monster everyone makes it out to be.
If Zerg tosses 2 maxxed roach or roach ling armies at you and you defend.... You are quite far ahead as long as you aren't crippled.
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On April 06 2012 04:52 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 04:40 freetgy wrote:
what you guys think of FFE into 2 Gate 4 Zealot pressure around 5min mark? just to force units.
Tyler used to do this alot quite long ago, 4 zealots (+0) can deal with quite alot of slow lings and may be even delay a the third/ damage a third well.
imho everything that comes after the third for Z is up is already to late he will have enough economy to waste units.
i am not very fond of the 7-8 min zealot +1 timing, because of that. that's just another timing like +1 zealot timing; zergs will scout for it, build the minimum amount of units and be ahead because we just sacrificed 400 minerals that early on a pressure timing. You will catch zergs off guard at first, but if everyone used that timing then zergs will adapt. What we're trying to look for is a build that allows us to be in a good position economically while being able to defend the crazy ass max roach play at 12 minutes. Now we can include pressure timings of course, but why cant pure defense be able to defend this, while taking in account the other unit compositions that zerg can muster at that time. The struggle is, that it seems w/o any pressure, the zerg will max out no matter what, and there isnt a reliable way of pressuring or rather limited options of pressuring. All ive seen are low gateway timings involving a ton of zealots or stargate play. When we look at how terran can pressure, they can pressure using any of their army structures, barracks for marine or reaper play with bunkers ofc, factory for hellions, or starport for banshees/medivacs.
its because our gateway units suck, they suck because they can not retreat, this means in every engagement my goal should be even if i lose units to lose cost efficiently while the zerg player is still even with me in economy. Which they are for quite a while, if they go for a fast 3rd actually.
I want to force them to build units (zerglings because they are not larva efficient) when they don't want to build them, and still be safe to power economy closing the gap in economy up to the 10-12 min mark.
I think P might be able to find such a macro opening, that then gets a third one that is very quickly saturated (due to high chronoboosts on probes) so it pays back faster.
Going for a later timing (warpgate / stargate) i think plays in their hands because they would have build it, for the 12min timing anyway.
4 zealots a alot less an investment, then 7-8
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On April 06 2012 04:46 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 04:25 soLremarK wrote:On April 06 2012 04:08 Kajarn wrote:
Why does everyone think we need an insanely fast third? Why can't we play the same kind of game we used to with 3 gate expand?
What's wrong with a 3rd at 11-12 minutes after and while constantly contesting map control? Pick a build which gets the sentry/blink/ immortal comp up, probably delaying blink in favor of +2.... Claim your half of the map and treat maxxed roaches like the old roach/long all-in...
The reason why Zergs hate gateway expand is the are on edge... But Z back on edge! I haven't met many Zergs who hate gateway expanding, most like playing against it. FFE is more economical in every way, there are a select few gateway timings that hit a little faster but I think they are also a lot weaker and more committed because of your weaker economy. The problem that applies to pretty much your whole post is that if you gateway expand, the Zerg probably isn't going to take a 4 minute third and go stephano style roaches (obviously, because you couldn't defend that vs 1-base play and you also couldn't drone freely for the first 8~ minutes of the game). In general vs a gateway expand, Zerg does this: hit 2-base saturation asap, make units and lair, take 3rd (and sometimes 4th) behind units while making 10-20 drones quickly to saturate the new base as it finishes. This style delays the Zerg max by a minute or two, but it also greatly delays your own max by an even larger factor because of how much less economical gateway expands are. Delayed blink builds with a robo are also really weak against mutas, and 2-base muta works pretty well against gateway expands, especially in the current map pool. I didn't make my post clear. What I meant to say is to FFE but play with the same shark mode mentality as 3gate expo. Obviously we need to make an effort to hide tech and shutdown overlords... I assumed it was understood that FFE was the norm.
When you FFE, you have no ability to shark. Your first real timing window is about 7 minutes with nothing but zealots.
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On April 06 2012 05:09 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 04:46 Kajarn wrote:On April 06 2012 04:25 soLremarK wrote:On April 06 2012 04:08 Kajarn wrote:
Why does everyone think we need an insanely fast third? Why can't we play the same kind of game we used to with 3 gate expand?
What's wrong with a 3rd at 11-12 minutes after and while constantly contesting map control? Pick a build which gets the sentry/blink/ immortal comp up, probably delaying blink in favor of +2.... Claim your half of the map and treat maxxed roaches like the old roach/long all-in...
The reason why Zergs hate gateway expand is the are on edge... But Z back on edge! I haven't met many Zergs who hate gateway expanding, most like playing against it. FFE is more economical in every way, there are a select few gateway timings that hit a little faster but I think they are also a lot weaker and more committed because of your weaker economy. The problem that applies to pretty much your whole post is that if you gateway expand, the Zerg probably isn't going to take a 4 minute third and go stephano style roaches (obviously, because you couldn't defend that vs 1-base play and you also couldn't drone freely for the first 8~ minutes of the game). In general vs a gateway expand, Zerg does this: hit 2-base saturation asap, make units and lair, take 3rd (and sometimes 4th) behind units while making 10-20 drones quickly to saturate the new base as it finishes. This style delays the Zerg max by a minute or two, but it also greatly delays your own max by an even larger factor because of how much less economical gateway expands are. Delayed blink builds with a robo are also really weak against mutas, and 2-base muta works pretty well against gateway expands, especially in the current map pool. I didn't make my post clear. What I meant to say is to FFE but play with the same shark mode mentality as 3gate expo. Obviously we need to make an effort to hide tech and shutdown overlords... I assumed it was understood that FFE was the norm. When you FFE, you have no ability to shark. Your first real timing window is about 7 minutes with nothing but zealots.
What do you mean you can't shark? You can't shark before 7 minutes sure... 3 gate expo can't shark before 6 minutes
Sharking keeps Z guessing when to drone/unit up.
If Z feels threatened, your goal is complete
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On April 06 2012 06:01 Kajarn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 05:09 whoopadeedoo wrote:On April 06 2012 04:46 Kajarn wrote:On April 06 2012 04:25 soLremarK wrote:On April 06 2012 04:08 Kajarn wrote:
Why does everyone think we need an insanely fast third? Why can't we play the same kind of game we used to with 3 gate expand?
What's wrong with a 3rd at 11-12 minutes after and while constantly contesting map control? Pick a build which gets the sentry/blink/ immortal comp up, probably delaying blink in favor of +2.... Claim your half of the map and treat maxxed roaches like the old roach/long all-in...
The reason why Zergs hate gateway expand is the are on edge... But Z back on edge! I haven't met many Zergs who hate gateway expanding, most like playing against it. FFE is more economical in every way, there are a select few gateway timings that hit a little faster but I think they are also a lot weaker and more committed because of your weaker economy. The problem that applies to pretty much your whole post is that if you gateway expand, the Zerg probably isn't going to take a 4 minute third and go stephano style roaches (obviously, because you couldn't defend that vs 1-base play and you also couldn't drone freely for the first 8~ minutes of the game). In general vs a gateway expand, Zerg does this: hit 2-base saturation asap, make units and lair, take 3rd (and sometimes 4th) behind units while making 10-20 drones quickly to saturate the new base as it finishes. This style delays the Zerg max by a minute or two, but it also greatly delays your own max by an even larger factor because of how much less economical gateway expands are. Delayed blink builds with a robo are also really weak against mutas, and 2-base muta works pretty well against gateway expands, especially in the current map pool. I didn't make my post clear. What I meant to say is to FFE but play with the same shark mode mentality as 3gate expo. Obviously we need to make an effort to hide tech and shutdown overlords... I assumed it was understood that FFE was the norm. When you FFE, you have no ability to shark. Your first real timing window is about 7 minutes with nothing but zealots. What do you mean you can't shark? You can't shark before 7 minutes sure... 3 gate expo can't shark before 6 minutes Sharking keeps Z guessing when to drone/unit up. If Z feels threatened, your goal is complete
If you open FFE, Zerg knows you can not apply serious pressure before 7 minutes. Stephano's Zerg build hits ~60 drones at 8 minutes with roaches on the way. You have a one minute timing window to pressure.
3 gate expo is different because Zerg can't know that you're dropping an expo. For all they know, you're going 5 gate all-in. This makes sharking scary. For FFE, zerg knows toss absolutely can't do anything for 7 minutes. Zerg's thought process: Drone drone drone scout at 7 minutes for push and build lings/crawlers or drone another minute then ramp to 200 supply by 12-13 minutes.
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Sorry if that has been discused but, in maps with not easily defendable third, like korhal compound or shakuras, is it better to go for a delayed third and hope he doesn't overrun you or to go for a 2 base all in? Because any kind of sentrie based defense seems impossible on those maps.
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On April 06 2012 06:44 SeriouR wrote:
Sorry if that has been discused but, in maps with not easily defendable third, like korhal compound or shakuras, is it better to go for a delayed third and hope he doesn't overrun you or to go for a 2 base all in? Because any kind of sentrie based defense seems impossible on those maps.
I personally like to use stargate play off of an FFE and either go into a 2-base timing or if I've done some damage with void + phoenix just go to colossus tech and take a 3rd and go for a pre-hive maxed army push. 2-base all-ins on Korhal definitely are a fine way to play the matchup though, you have a few good routes to take and some nice chokes for FFs. But I like how easy it is to defend your 3rd with sim-city on that map (wall of gates + cannons behind them then just park your army between 3rd and nat, harass with warp prism, while macroing up a death star!
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On April 06 2012 04:25 soLremarK wrote:
I haven't met many Zergs who hate gateway expanding, most like playing against it. FFE is more economical in every way, there are a select few gateway timings that hit a little faster but I think they are also a lot weaker and more committed because of your weaker economy.
A 1 gate expand is almost as economical as a FFE with forge and cannon first. And it's a lot more threatening to the Zerg too. At 10' I'll typically reach 56 probes with the 1 gate FE, 56-57 probes with forge first, and 60 probes with nexus first. So it's not like it's that far behind, but the warp timings and agression are 2 minutes earlier. I usually push around 7' with 8 zealots. Just saying, cause it often feels like toss players have been doing FFE for so long they forgot the potential of a 1 gate FE.
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That build seems good, but I still think 6 slow lings off of a 14 pool followed by 8 more lings could deny the nexus every time. On medium sized maps, the first 6 lings will hit your base when you have 1 zealot, a second zealot ~50% complete, a forge ~20% complete and a probe about to start a pylon on the low ground. The 6 lings will obviously deny the pylon, so you'll never be able to start a cannon. Then the lings just focus the nexus to force the cancel. You need 3 zealots and some probes to contest 14 lings, and even if you get to 3 zealots before the nexus dies, the lings can run in circles to finish it off. I guess if you pull a lot of probes, you can try to trap the lings. I don't know--I'd like to see a replay where Z tries this. It seems like an obvious counter, but I haven't seen an example.
And while 14 lings is an investment (5 less drones than the standard 4 lings), Z hasn't taken gas and will be way ahead in macro if they force the nexus cancel.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
Personally I believe quick Prism play is the way around this build. Currently I'm experimenting with sending 2 Immortals in a prism if I see the third and no gas and killing what I can. While that's happening I put down a third and twilight council, along with a second prism so I can warp in at both the third and main at the same time.
Keep building Immortals and spend the little bit of extra gas you have on a DT shrine. Since you've been chronoing out Immortals since the start of the game you can hold any all in attempts quite well. I do this as opposed to the all in version with 3 Immortals koreans are quite fond of, but you can do that too off this opener.
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EPT
