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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
On March 20 2012 13:17 tsuxiit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 13:04 K3Nyy wrote:On March 20 2012 12:19 Fenneth wrote:On March 20 2012 12:18 GoldenH wrote:On March 20 2012 11:46 Severedevil wrote:
Speaking of Phoenix play...
It's been my longstanding impression that Protoss almost never get +1 air weapons with their early air play, which baffles me, because it increases Void Ray damage by 20% against Queens, and Phoenix damage by 25%, for only 100/100. Have I missed something? It does not matter; since VR nerf way back when, VR expand hasn't been viable. He's almost certainly talking about post-FFE air play. It feels like by the time +1 air weapons is finished assuming Protoss gets warpgate first, Zerg has a bunch of stuff to defend it so it doesn't really matter. I think the upgrades takes like almost 3 mins? So 8 min WG, 10:30ish air weapons x_x;; Seems useless. I have encountered a build on ladder that involved 2-star void ray with +1, which put 7 +1 void rays at your opponent's base at 11:00, which if it goes unscouted or even just partially scouted can be totally deadly to a Zerg without spores everywhere or sufficient preparation otherwise. Worth thinking about, possibly.
Yeah, and if he's on lair with a hydra den finished you auto-lose...
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Sorry if you guys think what I'm saying is totally inappropriate. But if you're having trouble with a 12 min roach bust then wouldnt the best solution be to not let the game get to that stage?
I'm not telling you to all in or anything but just stronger pressure or a different type of expand style. The current pvz meta game is about ffe and zergs droning due to no pressure. Tbh I don't think a toss is legitly ahead unless if the 3rd is taken down.
Sorry to bring this up but I really love a 3 gate expo against a Zerg. My transition is usually 5 gate pressure off 2 gas, loads of sentries into robo. Although I'm only midto high masters I can confidently say that due to the greedy mindset of most zergs due to the current meta game, alot of them just fold over when I pressure with 5 gates. I'll upload a couple of replays later when I get home
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On March 20 2012 14:13 Stoopid0boi wrote:
Sorry if you guys think what I'm saying is totally inappropriate. But if you're having trouble with a 12 min roach bust then wouldnt the best solution be to not let the game get to that stage?
The game development has reached a point where a 12 minute game is SHORT. Trying to finish the game before the 12 minute mark will leave you with a 20% win rate against good opponents.
I'm not telling you to all in or anything but just stronger pressure or a different type of expand style. The current pvz meta game is about ffe and zergs droning due to no pressure. Tbh I don't think a toss is legitly ahead unless if the 3rd is taken down.
Yeah, a lot of people think that as well, that's why the 4 gate +1 zealot pressure and such things were invented, but now that they're defended by zergs Protoss find themselves still too far behind economically due to how fast Zerg drones. One thing is certain is that trying to end the game earlier isn't the solution, because trying to end the game earlier is where we started 1.5 years ago (everyone 4-gating.)
Sorry to bring this up but I really love a 3 gate expo against a Zerg. My transition is usually 5 gate pressure off 2 gas, loads of sentries into robo. Although I'm only midto high masters I can confidently say that due to the greedy mindset of most zergs due to the current meta game, alot of them just fold over when I pressure with 5 gates. I'll upload a couple of replays later when I get home
3 gate expo against zerg stopped working because zergs stopped overreacting to the sentry poke, and droned up really hard, and then Protoss enters a very awkward stage in the game where if they went robo and Zerg went spire Protoss auto-losses in a macro game, and the timing of Zerg's third can't be countered with a 2 base push reactively, but only if you guess ahead of time when he's gonna take it, and you start preparing for it then, but if you aren't preparing a push then you take a huge disdvantage to a very early third.
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For your fear of the maxed roach smashing of Zerg, I'll outline my fundamental ideas to how PvZ should work.
First Option Stargate: The goal here is to have 2 Void Rays outside your natural third forcing an Roach attacks to be on a clock. Meanwhile, some Phoenixes are your immediate scouting and small Harass. The tough part becomes gauging how much gas to Tech with and how many sentries to make.
You need enough Immortal and Void Rays to keep roaches at bay, and quite enough Collosus for any Roach/Hydra busts. Mutas should be seen from a mile away and are quite rare after Stargate.
Obviously this build has issues, but It can atealst slow down the Stephano build and put it in tough decisions.
There are also a variety of ways to get 2 void rays out, including a delayed +1 Zealot/Void Ray or just straight Stargate Harrass.
Second Option Blink: This option is more similar to the old days of 3 Gate FE. The goal here is to constantly shark and slowly tech in the meantime. The specifics are hard to pin down but here is the concept: Abuse the map control of sentry/blink until roach speed finishes to expand. Meanwhile tech to Robo(s) to deal with Roaches.
Some choice of scouting is nessesary as this build benefits from either a quicker robo for obs or halucination for scouting.
This build also has the ability to instantly all in with a well place pylon or after dominating a fight.
There is a greater chance to beat someone better than you with this as you may catch a Zerg by surprise with forcefields or a stalker/sentry/immortal army. Potential Blink into base gimmics.
Ok ya sure I have no replays or hard core order of buildings and everything I may have just said could be garbage. However, its a starting point..
Are Void Rays enough of a deterant? Does Stargate just create more problems?
Can a Blink army get scary before 11 min? How about Infestor Timings or fast Hydras?
Which of the two options are more reliable or effective? What assumptions have I made that are completely false?
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Have people experimented with PvT style double forge into 3rd / twilight?
Does upgraded zealot-stalker + forcefields compete with mass roach?
(Rubbish zerg here.)
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On March 20 2012 16:35 Robo-boogey wrote:
Have people experimented with PvT style double forge into 3rd / twilight?
Does upgraded zealot-stalker + forcefields compete with mass roach?
(Rubbish zerg here.)
None of that deals with Roaches very well. You have no AoE in that army or Immortals to deal enough damage.
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Haven't seen this mentioned yet: has anyone tried the 3rd-before-Core opening that Sase used against Ret in the Red Bull LAN finals? Yea, he lost the two games that he used it (one of which had a lot to do with derp Core placement), but I think there was some promise there. At least some cool fundamental ideas.
I've been working with it a bit and have by no means refined it past the first 7-8 minutes, but what I have been able to do is get 6-7 +1 Zealots ready to attack at 7 minutes. If you see a fast third and can deny scouting of the second Gate and extra Zealots for as long as possible, this push hits with the same power and about a minute earlier than a normal +1 Warp Gate timing, and I feel has the potential to disrupt timings and punish a 7minute Roach Warren (which I gather is when Stephano gets it from this thread).
I have not found a great follow up yet. I feel like getting up to 5-6 Gates and a Robo with constant Immortal production after an Observer to scout could stand a fighting chance. The nice thing about the super fast third (drops at ~7:00) is that you get this surge of mineral income that you don't get with any of the popular builds currently being used right as a ton of Roach aggression is getting ready to arrive. The extra minerals can be used for additional Cannons and simcity to deflect Roaches.
I am still having a bit of trouble getting slowly worn down by immediate Roach counters, but am getting close, and have been playing on maps where I don't think it would be ideal anyway (Korhal and Shakuras). I will upload some reps tomorrow after some more games.
VOD of Sase vs. Ret here (starts at 6:30:00): http://live.redbull.tv/events/31/lansc3/
Rough build: Nex first (which Sase did, but is risky) or 13 Forge, 17 Nexus, Cannon, Gateway, ONE Gas, Pylon. Get second gateway as soon as you can afford it (constant Probes). Stop mining gas at 100, get +1 and chrono non-stop. Take third when Zealots move out, get Core, get extra gates to simcity, 2-3 cannons at both natural and third.
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Wow i watched the youtube video of Elfi vs Stephano.
Those were absolutely horrible forcefields, better forcefields would have allowed for more(not stacking them), his unit composition was the right response, get a warp prism, dont over do it on the warp ins just maybe 1-2 zealots tax his apm, kill the queen, thats his production.
If you dont do economic damage to the zerg he will just stomp you, but if you can slow down the pushes delay the hatches anything to disrupt his econ then it will make his push worse.
In the replay Elfi saw the first lings go straight to his base because he was not attacking the pylon, Elfi could have cannoned the random expand, i mean Stephano didnt scout around it and he only made 2 more lings..
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People like to make light of the mechanical skill it requires to use 3-hatch builds effectively. Unless you are hitting all of your injects, all of your overlord timings (which are vague given how zerg production works and the necessity of sacrificial overlords), and drone transferring optimally, you will not be able to execute this build nearly as well as Stephano, DRG, or any of the top pros.
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On March 20 2012 17:16 [MLG]GCA wrote:Haven't seen this mentioned yet: has anyone tried the 3rd-before-Core opening that Sase used against Ret in the Red Bull LAN finals? Yea, he lost the two games that he used it (one of which had a lot to do with derp Core placement), but I think there was some promise there. At least some cool fundamental ideas. I've been working with it a bit and have by no means refined it past the first 7-8 minutes, but what I have been able to do is get 6-7 +1 Zealots ready to attack at 7 minutes. If you see a fast third and can deny scouting of the second Gate and extra Zealots for as long as possible, this push hits with the same power and about a minute earlier than a normal +1 Warp Gate timing, and I feel has the potential to disrupt timings and punish a 7minute Roach Warren (which I gather is when Stephano gets it from this thread). I have not found a great follow up yet. I feel like getting up to 5-6 Gates and a Robo with constant Immortal production after an Observer to scout could stand a fighting chance. The nice thing about the super fast third (drops at ~7:00) is that you get this surge of mineral income that you don't get with any of the popular builds currently being used right as a ton of Roach aggression is getting ready to arrive. The extra minerals can be used for additional Cannons and simcity to deflect Roaches. I am still having a bit of trouble getting slowly worn down by immediate Roach counters, but am getting close, and have been playing on maps where I don't think it would be ideal anyway (Korhal and Shakuras). I will upload some reps tomorrow after some more games. VOD of Sase vs. Ret here (starts at 6:30:00): http://live.redbull.tv/events/31/lansc3/Rough build: Nex first (which Sase did, but is risky) or 13 Forge, 17 Nexus, Cannon, Gateway, ONE Gas, Pylon. Get second gateway as soon as you can afford it (constant Probes). Stop mining gas at 100, get +1 and chrono non-stop. Take third when Zealots move out, get Core, get extra gates to simcity, 2-3 cannons at both natural and third.
Thanks for sharing. This may sound obvious to some, but i'm of the opinion that to play against zerg you have to choices:
1) Aggressively expand in order to keep up with their economy; or 2) Do timings or harass to kill them or at the very least, slow them down before hive tech. If you choose to play passively against zerg I think you need to be playing aggressive economically.
That being said, I really like what SaSe was doing in Game 1 against ret. I don't know how viable it is, and I don't know how zergs will react to a fast 3rd like that once they've played against it a few times and have had the chance to sit down and study it out a bit. But the general idea is amazing to me.
In my last 100-200 pvz games I've done the fast 3rd off of 4 gates/robo like mentioned earlier in this thread, and from my experience I can say this:
The times when zerg decide to max on roaches at 12 minutes and kill me, 50% of the time I die. And the games that I do win, it was usually that the zerg made some critical mistake, like letting me cut off 1/2 of 1/4 of his roaches and kill them for free. I've made a lot of adjustments to the build to try and survive that 12 minute wave of 200/200 roaches, like getting hallucination instead of an obs, that way i'm able to get an extra immortal out, and just use cannons and detection. Keep in mind that these are ladder games; if I could find some customs against good zergs it would be nice, but for the most part, these players aren't even near the calibre of stephano. I can't say for sure, but i'm coming to the conclusion that I think the 3rd base with this current build is too slow. The 3rd base doesn't kick in enough before you are over-run with roaches.
Another thing I wanted to say here. I don't find non-FFE builds very good at all. I used them for the first year and eventually came to the conclusion that FFE is much much better. Maybe that comes down to my style or something, but I don't really see how doing a less economic build is going to solve this issue. Even if it did, with gate expands you run into a completely different set of problems.
What SaSe is doing is really good, even if it doesn't end up working in the long run. We can sit here and do the same builds over and over again, expecting different results; OR, we can make new builds, study and refine them, and hopefully stumble upon a better way to play. I like the latter.
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On March 20 2012 16:35 Robo-boogey wrote:
Have people experimented with PvT style double forge into 3rd / twilight?
Does upgraded zealot-stalker + forcefields compete with mass roach?
(Rubbish zerg here.)
Armour upgrades have little effect against roaches.
Zealot/sentry works against terran as their units have high dps and low health, so you forcefield them in. Roaches have high health and lower dps, so you nened to forcefield them out and therefore need stalker/sentry instead. You just wont have the gas to do upgrades/stalker/sentry on two bases.
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On March 20 2012 18:04 ThomasHobbes wrote:
People like to make light of the mechanical skill it requires to use 3-hatch builds effectively. Unless you are hitting all of your injects, all of your overlord timings (which are vague given how zerg production works and the necessity of sacrificial overlords), and drone transferring optimally, you will not be able to execute this build nearly as well as Stephano, DRG, or any of the top pros.
Definitely. The theory behind it is easy, 14 pool 16 hatch, move drone to third as your first queen is finishing, put down third, then keep building overlords and drones. And if I do only that (high plat), I can get to 75 supply by the 8 minute mark, which is what DRG does in tournament play. However, in a real game, it doesnt work like that for someone of my level, you need to drone scout, properly place overlords, scout with lings, transfer drones, put down gas, evo and roach warren at the right times, keep track of toss gas timing, sac overlords, keep injects perfect and preferably also spread creep and be able to react to early pressure. In a real game, there's no way I'll get close to 75 supply by the 8 minute mark unless the protoss is being insanely passive.
Basically, your macro is put under enormous strain and unless your mechanics are really crisp, you won't have the APM and speed to keep up with everything else you need to do.
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This is a very bad discussion.
MAKE 2 VOID RAYS and u stop this.
User was warned for this post
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On March 20 2012 19:14 Azz wrote:
This is a very bad discussion.
MAKE 2 VOID RAYS and u stop this.
You don't even touch this with 2 voidrays... the voidrays will do zero damage to the zerg and the lack of sentries will make expansion impossible.
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On March 20 2012 19:17 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 19:14 Azz wrote:
This is a very bad discussion.
MAKE 2 VOID RAYS and u stop this. You don't even touch this with 2 voidrays... the voidrays will do zero damage to the zerg and the lack of sentries will make expansion impossible.
if you wall and take the third on a map like shakuras two voidrays easily reduce the roach numbers before the roaches kill your gateway wall at your third
as long as you charge the voidrays they deal lots of damage
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It seems like this thread is discussing different aspects. There is a difference between a zerg trying to copy Stephano and Stephano himself who can adapt to what you are doing and improvise around a theme.
I think dealing with roaches has already been answered in this thread. For example on page 8 watch the Mc vs Stephano replay. Mc is not doing anything drastically different, he simply does it well. Continuous upgrades to +3, even went for dt that did little and still had a 3rd and overpowered Stephano with blink stalker, sentry and immortals.
The bigger issue seems to be the lategame of taking over half the map and relentlessly denying expansions. I would like to see that Mc type opening skip colossus, go for shield upgrades instead of armour and head for a lategame composition of carrier, archon, templar with mothership, expansions and cannons. This army appears in the first game of Naniwa vs Ret in Rets challenge at the Red Bull Lan. Could even add in storm drops and immortal drops.
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On March 20 2012 20:03 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 19:17 Tobberoth wrote:On March 20 2012 19:14 Azz wrote:
This is a very bad discussion.
MAKE 2 VOID RAYS and u stop this. You don't even touch this with 2 voidrays... the voidrays will do zero damage to the zerg and the lack of sentries will make expansion impossible. if you wall and take the third on a map like shakuras two voidrays easily reduce the roach numbers before the roaches kill your gateway wall at your third as long as you charge the voidrays they deal lots of damage
We are talking over 30 roaches, with constant streaming from 4 hatches, there's no way 2 or even 4 voidrays will be enough, charged or not.
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On March 20 2012 14:22 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:13 Stoopid0boi wrote:
Sorry if you guys think what I'm saying is totally inappropriate. But if you're having trouble with a 12 min roach bust then wouldnt the best solution be to not let the game get to that stage?
The game development has reached a point where a 12 minute game is SHORT. Trying to finish the game before the 12 minute mark will leave you with a 20% win rate against good opponents. Show nested quote +
I'm not telling you to all in or anything but just stronger pressure or a different type of expand style. The current pvz meta game is about ffe and zergs droning due to no pressure. Tbh I don't think a toss is legitly ahead unless if the 3rd is taken down.
Yeah, a lot of people think that as well, that's why the 4 gate +1 zealot pressure and such things were invented, but now that they're defended by zergs Protoss find themselves still too far behind economically due to how fast Zerg drones. One thing is certain is that trying to end the game earlier isn't the solution, because trying to end the game earlier is where we started 1.5 years ago (everyone 4-gating.) Show nested quote +
Sorry to bring this up but I really love a 3 gate expo against a Zerg. My transition is usually 5 gate pressure off 2 gas, loads of sentries into robo. Although I'm only midto high masters I can confidently say that due to the greedy mindset of most zergs due to the current meta game, alot of them just fold over when I pressure with 5 gates. I'll upload a couple of replays later when I get home
3 gate expo against zerg stopped working because zergs stopped overreacting to the sentry poke, and droned up really hard, and then Protoss enters a very awkward stage in the game where if they went robo and Zerg went spire Protoss auto-losses in a macro game, and the timing of Zerg's third can't be countered with a 2 base push reactively, but only if you guess ahead of time when he's gonna take it, and you start preparing for it then, but if you aren't preparing a push then you take a huge disdvantage to a very early third.
There were a few fundamental problems with your answers I believe. For one, everything I wrote was intended to be read all together and not be answered seperately, which led to your misunderstanding of my idea.
I am not telling anyone to end the game earlier with an all in. I am proposing a method to shift the style the Zerg will have to play. For example, as I have proposed before, I don't believe that ffe is advantageous against a Zerg unless the third is effectively denied. And with you saying that zergs have adapted to the +1 zealot timings, it makes ffe a less advantageous opening.
Furthermore, my proposal of the 3 gate expand into 5 gate pressure actually punishes the current Zerg style of droning until the 8 or so minute mark. Even if they react to the pressure perfectly (5 gates are a lot of production) the style the Zerg has to play will be modified and the game won't reach the 12 minute 200 food roach push.
My main conclusion is that by Doing a ffe, Protoss players are pretty much inviting the Zerg to use this strategy which seems like it is damn effective... So if you have trouble with it... Don't force the Zerg to do it
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how often have you guys tried out RSVP's stalkerless PvZ?
I've been doing this build more and more and it stops the 12 min roach max dead in it's tracks, you have immortals,voidrays, and storm to deal with them.
His trading will be horribly inefficient as long as you keep your templar alive. He won't be able to kill your 3-4 voidrays at all, and the 2-3 immortals in your army just wreak havoc as long as the zealots are alive.
Stalkers are mobile, but horrible in survivability untill they have blink, and even then it's hard to stay alive against a 3 hatch roach spam once your sentry energy dries out.
So why not skip stalkers and sentries and go for pure DPS army of doom? If he goes hydra's you'll have storm to deal with them, and by the time he has hydra's you'll have +3 attack for your ground army, a third base and around 12-14 constant working gates. You can add in archons once you have 5-6 templars on the field and just keep churning out those chargelots.
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On March 20 2012 21:44 Stoopid0boi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:22 Kiarip wrote:On March 20 2012 14:13 Stoopid0boi wrote:
Sorry if you guys think what I'm saying is totally inappropriate. But if you're having trouble with a 12 min roach bust then wouldnt the best solution be to not let the game get to that stage?
The game development has reached a point where a 12 minute game is SHORT. Trying to finish the game before the 12 minute mark will leave you with a 20% win rate against good opponents.
I'm not telling you to all in or anything but just stronger pressure or a different type of expand style. The current pvz meta game is about ffe and zergs droning due to no pressure. Tbh I don't think a toss is legitly ahead unless if the 3rd is taken down.
Yeah, a lot of people think that as well, that's why the 4 gate +1 zealot pressure and such things were invented, but now that they're defended by zergs Protoss find themselves still too far behind economically due to how fast Zerg drones. One thing is certain is that trying to end the game earlier isn't the solution, because trying to end the game earlier is where we started 1.5 years ago (everyone 4-gating.)
Sorry to bring this up but I really love a 3 gate expo against a Zerg. My transition is usually 5 gate pressure off 2 gas, loads of sentries into robo. Although I'm only midto high masters I can confidently say that due to the greedy mindset of most zergs due to the current meta game, alot of them just fold over when I pressure with 5 gates. I'll upload a couple of replays later when I get home
3 gate expo against zerg stopped working because zergs stopped overreacting to the sentry poke, and droned up really hard, and then Protoss enters a very awkward stage in the game where if they went robo and Zerg went spire Protoss auto-losses in a macro game, and the timing of Zerg's third can't be countered with a 2 base push reactively, but only if you guess ahead of time when he's gonna take it, and you start preparing for it then, but if you aren't preparing a push then you take a huge disdvantage to a very early third. There were a few fundamental problems with your answers I believe. For one, everything I wrote was intended to be read all together and not be answered seperately, which led to your misunderstanding of my idea. I am not telling anyone to end the game earlier with an all in. I am proposing a method to shift the style the Zerg will have to play. For example, as I have proposed before, I don't believe that ffe is advantageous against a Zerg unless the third is effectively denied. And with you saying that zergs have adapted to the +1 zealot timings, it makes ffe a less advantageous opening. Furthermore, my proposal of the 3 gate expand into 5 gate pressure actually punishes the current Zerg style of droning until the 8 or so minute mark. Even if they react to the pressure perfectly (5 gates are a lot of production) the style the Zerg has to play will be modified and the game won't reach the 12 minute 200 food roach push. My main conclusion is that by Doing a ffe, Protoss players are pretty much inviting the Zerg to use this strategy which seems like it is damn effective... So if you have trouble with it... Don't force the Zerg to do it
3 gate isn't even viable anymore. The 3 gate into 5 gate push falls under the category of pushes that you have to prepare ahead of time, and can't use reactively. If a zerg doesn't get a very early third, then you won't do any damage, and will be far behind in tech.
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EPT
