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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On March 20 2012 09:31 Fenneth wrote: If this were true, other Zergs would be having similar results to Stephano, which just isn't the case. Because other pro Zergs simply aren't doing this style in tournament games. Don't ask me why. | ||
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
On March 20 2012 09:11 Fenneth wrote: You just listed a bunch of gimmicky builds which long-term are less viable still than gateway expands. This is exactly what I'm talking about. | ||
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Fenneth
Australia354 Posts
This is not a question of me needing to expand my horizons, these builds have been tried, tested and discarded for a good reason. An experienced Zerg will just stop whatever cheesy tech you are going for and then kill you. 1 base play is not the answer at any reasonably high level. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
On March 20 2012 10:15 Fenneth wrote: This is not a question of me needing to expand my horizons, these builds have been tried, tested and discarded for a good reason. An experienced Zerg will just stop whatever cheesy tech you are going for and then kill you. 1 base play is not the answer at any reasonably high level. If you approach a problem that way then you're obviously not going to find a solution. That's all I'm trying to tell you. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1311 Posts
The solution I've seen is a 5 phoenix play that involves sniping queens and overlords, because there is absolutely NO WAY you can harass a zerg's economy and your freely letting them pump units till you die. Use a warp prism all you like but 3-4 gateway units in a WP just do not do sufficient damage. This is just SC:BW all over again fyi. The more queens you snipe, the less roaches you will face and you definitely won't face 12' 200/200 zerg army. You need to consistently be active with them and use them to find holes in defenses and know their army positioning. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
It's been my longstanding impression that Protoss almost never get +1 air weapons with their early air play, which baffles me, because it increases Void Ray damage by 20% against Queens, and Phoenix damage by 25%, for only 100/100. Have I missed something? | ||
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sofakng
100 Posts
On March 20 2012 11:46 Severedevil wrote: Speaking of Phoenix play... It's been my longstanding impression that Protoss almost never get +1 air weapons with their early air play, which baffles me, because it increases Void Ray damage by 20% against Queens, and Phoenix damage by 25%, for only 100/100. Have I missed something? warpgate ^^ | ||
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mapleleafs791
United States225 Posts
On March 20 2012 11:29 Zariel wrote: I believe the problem for the Protoss is the Queen. If a zerg constantly injects larvae, his production capability is seriously too high once they are on 3 bases, essentially, you are fighting a 6 hatch zerg with 2 base protoss, you WILL get out-massed and out-droned. The solution I've seen is a 5 phoenix play that involves sniping queens and overlords, because there is absolutely NO WAY you can harass a zerg's economy and your freely letting them pump units till you die. Use a warp prism all you like but 3-4 gateway units in a WP just do not do sufficient damage. This is just SC:BW all over again fyi. The more queens you snipe, the less roaches you will face and you definitely won't face 12' 200/200 zerg army. You need to consistently be active with them and use them to find holes in defenses and know their army positioning. I have been thinking this but have been hesitant to say it since im only masters so take what i say with a grain of salt. 1 Stargate to 4-5 phoenix is so great for detering a fast muta tech while at the same time allows you to snipe any queen that isnt on hold position + surrounded by multiple spores and with good micro spores arnt even enough (MC anyone). Also if a zerg pokes in and decides its a bad engagement, too bad you lose at least as many units as i have phoenix. After watching genius play it seems like such as sick build as you can kill queens to mess with the zergs production however its pretty multitask intense. I struggle to macro while properly doing stargate harass when i offrace and although i dont main toss i do have half-ok mechanics. So idk if this build is a great solution for the general poplulace but im practicing it every single game i play and it works for me (i offrace at diamond so yea its not worth much but genius makes it work) Also uber fast 3rds with gateway sim city like other have advocated seems to work for pros as well as myself. Really it seems to just be execution dependent (korean tosses do great with 2 base all ins and 3 bases while foreign tosses fail) really its seems to come down to relative player skill though, stephano vs foreigners = rape stephano vs korean tosses = not so much He's just better than alot of foreign competition NrGMonk, could you post some replays/pro games emphasizing the control/positioning/sim city your are talking about? I suck with toss since its not my main race so i dont really feel in the position to be telling people what to do :X. However i totally agree in that it seems to depend more on player skill/positioning than flat build order countering Just my opinion so dont flame me lol (half the post seem to be flaming :/) | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On March 20 2012 11:46 Severedevil wrote: Speaking of Phoenix play... It's been my longstanding impression that Protoss almost never get +1 air weapons with their early air play, which baffles me, because it increases Void Ray damage by 20% against Queens, and Phoenix damage by 25%, for only 100/100. Have I missed something? It does not matter; since VR nerf way back when, VR expand hasn't been viable. | ||
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Fenneth
Australia354 Posts
On March 20 2012 12:18 GoldenH wrote: It does not matter; since VR nerf way back when, VR expand hasn't been viable. He's almost certainly talking about post-FFE air play. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
On March 20 2012 12:19 Fenneth wrote: He's almost certainly talking about post-FFE air play. Any type of air play that uses 5+ Stargate units, really. But FFE-->Stargate is the relevant one in the context of this thread. | ||
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Benjamin80
581 Posts
On March 20 2012 12:00 mapleleafs791 wrote: I have been thinking this but have been hesitant to say it since im only masters so take what i say with a grain of salt. 1 Stargate to 4-5 phoenix is so great for detering a fast muta tech while at the same time allows you to snipe any queen that isnt on hold position + surrounded by multiple spores and with good micro spores arnt even enough (MC anyone). Also if a zerg pokes in and decides its a bad engagement, too bad you lose at least as many units as i have phoenix. After watching genius play it seems like such as sick build as you can kill queens to mess with the zergs production however its pretty multitask intense. I struggle to macro while properly doing stargate harass when i offrace and although i dont main toss i do have half-ok mechanics. So idk if this build is a great solution for the general poplulace but im practicing it every single game i play and it works for me (i offrace at diamond so yea its not worth much but genius makes it work) Also uber fast 3rds with gateway sim city like other have advocated seems to work for pros as well as myself. Really it seems to just be execution dependent (korean tosses do great with 2 base all ins and 3 bases while foreign tosses fail) really its seems to come down to relative player skill though, stephano vs foreigners = rape stephano vs korean tosses = not so much He's just better than alot of foreign competition NrGMonk, could you post some replays/pro games emphasizing the control/positioning/sim city your are talking about? I suck with toss since its not my main race so i dont really feel in the position to be telling people what to do :X. However i totally agree in that it seems to depend more on player skill/positioning than flat build order countering Just my opinion so dont flame me lol (half the post seem to be flaming :/) Where do you get this from? the only korean protoss Stephano have lost to are MC. While he beat top korean protoss like Hero and Tails using this style. Do you got any evidence to support that bold claim? | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On March 20 2012 12:19 Fenneth wrote: He's almost certainly talking about post-FFE air play. It feels like by the time +1 air weapons is finished assuming Protoss gets warpgate first, Zerg has a bunch of stuff to defend it so it doesn't really matter. I think the upgrades takes like almost 3 mins? So 8 min WG, 10:30ish air weapons x_x;; Seems useless. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On March 20 2012 12:31 Severedevil wrote: Any type of air play that uses 5+ Stargate units, really. But FFE-->Stargate is the relevant one in the context of this thread. In that case, still doesn't work. A zerg's 3rd will be up and running with ample creep for spore colonies by the time your VRs are out. Your VRs will be spotted (usually they should be spotted as soon as the stargates are put down) and be completely ineffective if you go 1, 2, or 3 stargates. You may only build 3 VR, and if he build muta instead of roach, you will lose all VRs. I have done many builds that get 3 VR with +1 at the base ASAP. But this is not a good strategy even in plat. If you only go 1 SG, you have the money for 6 gateways, but you cannot get warpgate also unless you get a second cyber core | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On March 20 2012 12:22 eugalp wrote: Where is rsvp, his comments would be very appreciated in this thread. He is really good in PvZ. He's been busy, no streams, guides, or comments in the past few months. I think he even stopped laddering (not in either Masters or GM this season) | ||
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MrToasty
Australia24 Posts
On March 20 2012 09:54 Flonomenalz wrote: Because other pro Zergs simply aren't doing this style in tournament games. Don't ask me why. Idra just tried it recently where he versed MC and lost 0-2 at Iron Squid. He attempted it in both games, but I guess his timings aren't complete yet? Anyway, as a Zerg and just trying this build it's very potent and even though I am only Diamond on NA I have noticed the build feels really safe and I have also noticed that my win rate against Protoss has gone right up. GL in beating it. | ||
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
On March 20 2012 13:04 K3Nyy wrote: It feels like by the time +1 air weapons is finished assuming Protoss gets warpgate first, Zerg has a bunch of stuff to defend it so it doesn't really matter. I think the upgrades takes like almost 3 mins? So 8 min WG, 10:30ish air weapons x_x;; Seems useless. I have encountered a build on ladder that involved 2-star void ray with +1, which put 7 +1 void rays at your opponent's base at 11:00, which if it goes unscouted or even just partially scouted can be totally deadly to a Zerg without spores everywhere or sufficient preparation otherwise. Worth thinking about, possibly. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
1) FFE. Pylon block (with a canceled Gate). CBs on Probes. // The goal is to delay the Hatch as much as possible or to force a further away Hatch, thereby forcing a Queen further away from the other bases initially. 2) 3rd gas as Gate finishes. Chrono 2 Zealots CB'd. Cyber Core when you can afford it with continual Probe production. // No more CBs on your Nexus. Zealots to scout an all in, damage Queens, force lings, and confirm amount of bases; If shifty make a Sentry/WG Research as soon as the Core finishes. 3) If everything is safe, 2 Stargates and 4th gas. Sentry, 1 more Zealot. WG Research, +1 when you have the gas (In this order). // Try to hide the Stargates, of course. 4) CB'd production on Phoenixes. Move out when you have 5 (you'll have 6/7 very quickly anyway, and you need to make the Zerg crap his pants). Prioritize Queens first. Ignore Drones until you have killed the Queens and stray OLs. Zerg scouting the early Gas isn't that big of a deal. Committing multiple Spores per Hatch is a rather big investment if he doesn't see how much air you have. OLs next, Drones last. Stop Phoenix production around 8-10. // Scouting while you harass is important. Note: if the Zerg sees the double Stargate, you'll need to move out with however many Phoenix you have, snipe the OLs and then once you have enough Phoenix to kill a Queen with 1 lift, go for it. 5) When your Phoenixes move out, you'll want to drop a Robo, a Twilight, and 4 more Gates when you can afford it, priority in that order (while still building Phoenix count up to the 8-10). During your harass, you should also make an additional Sentry or Zealot. // take your third if he can't overrun before you can warp in 6) Phoenix presence on the map should do several things: take out any scouting OLs, see whether or not you can move out and take your third, see the tech response. Either way you'll want an Obs and +2 Weapons soon as you can afford it. Zealots to clear out your third if you need more units from your initial stockpile. // Stay active with your Phoenix, you'll want to force the Zerg to keep his tech in his base as long as possible, to buy time for Sentry energy build up and to get your Colossus out. Most times, Spores are placed near the mineral line, so you can still catch Queens popping out with minimal to no losses. Only use Phoenix energy to snipe Hydras/Infestors, use it on Drones only to keep the Zerg defensive. If you see just mass Spores with a Roach shove coming, CB 2 VRs and be prepared to cancel your third until you deal with it. 7) Obs, +2, Robo Bay, Blink (in that order) as soon as you can afford it. Extra Gates/Cannon at your third to simcity. // Make sure you have enough to make Colossus with Range reasonably close, followed by Sentries. - Essentially, you'll be on equal bases, equal econ, powered infrastructure, Blink, +2, Colossus with Range, map awareness (if not control), with 8-10 lifts by the time the Zerg pushes out. A Roach/Hydra or Infestor follow up generally hits upon the first Colossus (which will not have range, so you need to keep it alive). Phoenixes should lift the Hydras during the fight, or the Infestors en route. Either way, you have 5 gates with 2-3 more coming soon so you can tailor your army comp to match Zerg's. With FFs and lifts, you'll come out on top very, very easily. - Prioritize +3 over armor, Fleet Beacon, DTs and Templar if Zerg stops being aggressive, stop at 4 Colossus. Stalkers will be your backbone unless you see a ton of lings. - 4th is super easy to take if you defend the counter attack well, as you're insanely gas starved and will have a generous amount of minerals. Phoenix retention is important. The Zerg will not be able to move out with his tech until they're massed sufficiently, allowing time for Colossus. - Limits production, forces Zerg to respect Phoenix count, techs earlier (slowing upgrades), or attacks earlier (slowing economy) than normal, keeps Zerg map blind. | ||
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