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Please have some semblance of an idea of what you're talking about. |
United States8476 Posts
I think this whole thread is a bit silly, which is why I've been trying to stay away from it so much. Also, most of the posts in it are really bad. The problem comes down to zergs copying a better build and protosses not having a equally good build to "copy". It's a bit harder for protoss to execute the defense than for zerg to execute the attack, but I don't think that's very imbalanced at all.
The following string of posts brings up really good points imo.
On March 16 2012 03:03 FGL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:51 Rorschach wrote:On March 16 2012 01:07 FGL wrote:On March 15 2012 16:05 Let it Raine wrote:
1 stargate with a bunch of gates into third base (titan beat stephano with a similar build, it's genius's go to macro build as well)
otherwise
you need two base 'all in' production, but rather than cutting probes for 10 minutes in hopes to kill a third base, you just take a third base yourself and then use the production to stay safe from roaches.
things that beat roaches:
air
blink stalkers with sim city to blink around
immortals
any of the above + forcefields
if i were a toss playing vs DRG or stephano i wouldn't take a third base unless i have one of the above things covered
This guy is correct. Cut probes while your third is building and resume with mass chronoboost after it's completed. Decide to cut at either 48 or 60 depending on how safe you feel. A good benchmark is 52 probes at 9 minutes assuming you used 4-5 chronos on core and 1 on +1 attack. The tech you put down after core determines what unit comp you will be using to defend. Twilight after core = more blink heavy, robo = more immortal heavy etc. If you are going blink stalkers and immortals you're going to have to delay your third timing slightly, probably until 11 or 12 minutes. Make 2-3 more cannons at your natural and keep 2 sentries there. This is essential to holding 200/200 roaches unless you like having your forge, core, and natural sniped Get 6-8 sentries. 6 for your army at your third [which should be simcitied + cannoned], 2 at your natural 8-9 minute third, 5 gateways 1 tech, 3 more gateways at third for simcity 10+ minute third, 7 gateways 1 tech, then 3 more 13+ minute third, I hope to god you killed a bunch of drones or his third because you're going to have a hell of a time coming back If you get an early robo, 1 warp prism at the 8-10 minute mark will keep the zerg off your back so you can expand if he went 3 hatch. It's the same concept behind doing the +1 zlot 4gate, dt opening or going stargate. If he takes massive damage from this pressure you can just 2b all in instead of going for a third Don't go colossus too fast. A lot of losses in pvz are from building your robo bay as your third is constructing. By the time he attacks you with 200/200 roaches you might have 1 colossus at best and it'll be useless without range. That means you will have 600/500 less units to defend with. If you try to tech and expand you can't make an army to fight him if he went mass roaches. You're only safe to get colossus while expanding if he's not playing this style of zerg. here is the problem as I see it. Sure you can get an army out to deal with a 3 hatch roach zerg BUT by the time you have that army (immortal, FF, blink stalkers , + 2) the zergs econ and tech will be so disgusting that he will just roll you over with hive tech. By the time you have the army to secure that third base against near max roach army you will be so far from a mothership+archons (as you will not have the additional 2 gas for a long time) that BL/infestor/spine is unbeatable with your "midgame" army.... Thus we see the trend of a players dieing trying to get up that third or two base timings to kill the zergs third..... The only thing I've been making work against zerg is a damn near pure sg play to help me take a third uncontested after the FFE. Essentially you try and dictate their composition by forcing anti air units out. Things that counter it, drops (nydus also) and early roach allins (which you typically don't see with zergs going for fast thirds) ..... At my skill lvl most zergs do one of two things. Overreact to the sg (spores, faster spire/infestation pit or even hyrdas). I've found it actually work to your advantage if they overcompensate for the sg play as they may have enough to contest your dominance in the skies but will likewise lack the ground army to actually kill your bases which should have cannons out the wazoo (picture a muta/ling zerg player hiding behind spines and doing his best to keep you in your base). on the flip side if they don't overreact you are very vulnerable to being worn down by mass roaches.... Think about Genius vs DRG where on entombed he went dbl sg phx into carrier. I believe that DRG got lucky by blind countering the bld but it has potential! If he's going to go to 200/200 roaches with ~60 drones there's no way he can afford to go hive tech reasonably quickly. It all comes down to how well you can defend his aggression. If you take too much damage you'll spend all your resources on rebuilding which gives him the time needed for hive but if you defend it with minimal losses he will be behind. This is the time to take your fourth/get aggressive/teching to stargate/mothership. A stalker immoratl sentry army will demolish a roach one once you have critical mass and enough ff energy. Usually at around 160 supply you can start to move out
Basically some combination of sim city/good forcefields/probe cuts/scouting/army spliting/army composition/cannons should hold it off.
Another point people might be missing is scouting this roach spam style. If you open pheonix, obs, or hallucination, it's quite easy to scout this zerg style. The lack of hydra den/infestation pit/spire and the low 3-4 gas count really give it away. Also, you should be seeing a large clump of roaches around the 11 minute mark. This gives you enough time to further sim city, cannon up, cut probes, and split up your units properly.
Also, some maps like Korhal and Dual Sight I just don't think it's very viable to get a 3rd. If I had to play those maps, I'd just do 2 base aggression every game. Speaking of 2 base allins, the specific allin you tried to do in your replay really had no chance of working. 2 base allins vs zerg should always hit before 11 minutes at the latest; otherwise will always have enough units to hold it off.
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You have a large panel of all ins on two bases as Protoss .
But if you want to take a third against "Stephano's build" play you have three main choices : air (Genius build) , pressure with early zealots (which is really good as you can take your third and save up your gaz for blink/+3 attack/sentrys (then robo) while pressuring the Zerg) and finally teching colossus on two bases and then securing your third or going for the kill (Mana's build but highly inneficient against mutas play) . One more thing is to use the building positioning . On almost every map on ladder you can wall the back of your third and put your army in front of your 3rd and your natural expansion (Antiga Shypiard, Taldarim, Shakuras, Korhal Coumpound ..) which make you in a really strong position as long as you have energy on your sentrys .
Korean Protoss players are not struggling at all in this match up (just look at the recent w/l in Korea) . In EU Protoss players are doing always the same stupid all in again and again. Stephano's skill is like 800000 milles ahead of them that's all .
(Pro level) .
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On March 19 2012 08:41 Trusty wrote:
The issue with VR is that they can't kill roaches that are moving haha..... they eventually get out of range.
For the longest time (and still do) i open FFE -> 1SG +1 zealot on Metal.
After the harass, I sit the 2 voidrays down each of the "lanes" (where watch towers are), to spot for stuff. Worst 2 worst I get surprised by mutas - but I only lose one VR.
I am a terrible player (only mid/high master) - and I often lose one of my VR's during the zealot/VR harass, so I often build 3 VR's anyway.
The VR's act as a deterrant to roaches - solely by the prescene that "hey if you attack, you're gonna lose your roaches eventually, so you better make it a big push". Obviously this doesn't apply to Stephano-style, as he's like "kill you anyway".
400 gas on SG units (2x VR, 1 Phoenix) -> whatever.
I think if you go up to 4 phoenix, and are awesome with your scouting, you can delay the TC/+2 weapons untill you're safe.
I think many posters in this thread, including myself, will have a hard time 'proving' that anything works. I think that's because anything that isn't a blind-hard-counter will only beat Stephano style barely. Then it's hard to account whether it was a difference in skill that let you hold it, or your build.
I would love to see Genius sit down and do his 1SG phoenix fast 3rd, against Stephano in a Bo11 or similar. Purely to analyze the games, offering no prize XDXD
Quoting myself for reference.
Last night I sat down and played a bunch of games with my flatmate (high masters zerg as well). He has been practicing the Stephano style, and he's not perfect, but our skills are similar.
I tried to do what I had said in my quote, 3/4g zealot +1 voidray attacks into whatever. Sometimes I won the game because he made mistakes right there, other times he deflected, and we were in an 'even' game state.
Not really even, but equal workers, and at that point he would go up to 55~60, and spam me. My usual follow up (TC + 3rd base) would fall over and die.
Then I switched to Genius style (1SG, 4gates, 5 phoenix). My flatmate knows the build, and he was able to hit his drone count earlier (since less threat of dying).
After a few games (and we discuss after), I found some little things that really helped (maybe it doesn't matter to a better player with better macro):
- Faking a +1 Zealot/Voidray timing, but sending my single VR with 2 zealot & probe, building pylon, warping in 2 zealots, then attacking the 3rd. It is a good way to force some units. CANNOT lose voidray.
Everything applies to during, or after the fake zealot/voidray timing:
- Get +1 armour (+1 weapons should only finish as your fake attack dies).
- Get Robo & 3rd base.
- Go up to 6 gates (I added 2gates early, because my macro is not GSL standard - a good player should be able to work from 4gates for alot longer with perfect warp-in).
- Go up to 4 Phoenix (not 5, will explain later). These should be built right after VR finishes.
Assuming you scout 'RoachMax' play (no spire, no infester pit, etc etc). Obviously this is the most difficult part, and requires good use of phoenix.
- Chrono Immo's from Robo upon completion. Don't get an obs unless your phoenix scouts burrowed claws on roach (you should have 1-2 cannon at your 3rd anyway).
- Warp in Stalkers & Sentries. Suggest taking 5th gas on 3rd base quickly, and stopping around 6-8 sentries. I go to 8 because I have bad FF. Good player should be able to live on 6.
-Your VR should be close to home, and your phoenix should be spread out on the map to scout his attack path. Sit your phoenixes on his roach ball(s) so you can have easy FF's.
I'm sure any good player can understand what happens with what I've outlined, it's nothing new, but just wanting to share the points I found.
Also something we didn't have time to try, and MISC:
- 4gates only, double Robo immortal (upon confirmation of RoachMax play).
- Trying to go collosus, after any SG opening, resulted in me dying or losing my 3rd. I don't think you can get Collosus after SG and hold RoachMax play, while having a 3rd.
4 Phoenix vs 5 Phoenix
5 Phoenix is Genius' Styles staple amount of phoenix. It's gaurenteed to easily kill queens with 1 lift (and non-perfect phoenix stacking).
In the above play I was trying, I didn't get a TC till way later (only when 3rd base finished building). This means my blink was delayed and so was my +2.
Blink didn't really help vs RoachMax play, when I was on Immo/Stalk/Sentry. Obviously having blink ready for mutalisks is really really helpful.
I always assume that I can't scout a spire. By this I mean, I know his gas is going to either infesters or mutas, but I don't have eyes on the tech building. What I noticed is that, by getting a TC instead of a 5th phoenix, I had TC ready to start blink if I got suprised by mutalisks.
Basically, if you are looking for things to cut, look into cutting the 5th phoenix first.
Sorry for long & messy post, will add more results tonight + replays (once I have some refined play).
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This is the reason why i all-in a zerg as a toss. Or i go ffe-chrono zealot off 1 gate and kill fast third then go immortal all in before muta comes out. I think as a toss on 2 base, you cant beat this strategy if playing normally. You have to all in or kill the third very quickly somehow.
Easy to say but its hard. Good zerg will react accordingly and hold any pressure toss can come up with before 11min mark Like stephano does. If you go fast third, you cant stop the wave after wave of roaches/lings. So the only option... I have no idea. Lol
Cheese/ hope your opponent slips/ all in. Cant macro against this. (fast third).
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On March 20 2012 06:42 NrGmonk wrote:I think this whole thread is a bit silly, which is why I've been trying to stay away from it so much. Also, most of the posts in it are really bad. The problem comes down to zergs copying a better build and protosses not having a equally good build to "copy". It's a bit harder for protoss to execute the defense than for zerg to execute the attack, but I don't think that's very imbalanced at all. The following string of posts brings up really good points imo. Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:03 FGL wrote:On March 16 2012 02:51 Rorschach wrote:On March 16 2012 01:07 FGL wrote:On March 15 2012 16:05 Let it Raine wrote:
1 stargate with a bunch of gates into third base (titan beat stephano with a similar build, it's genius's go to macro build as well)
otherwise
you need two base 'all in' production, but rather than cutting probes for 10 minutes in hopes to kill a third base, you just take a third base yourself and then use the production to stay safe from roaches.
things that beat roaches:
air
blink stalkers with sim city to blink around
immortals
any of the above + forcefields
if i were a toss playing vs DRG or stephano i wouldn't take a third base unless i have one of the above things covered
This guy is correct. Cut probes while your third is building and resume with mass chronoboost after it's completed. Decide to cut at either 48 or 60 depending on how safe you feel. A good benchmark is 52 probes at 9 minutes assuming you used 4-5 chronos on core and 1 on +1 attack. The tech you put down after core determines what unit comp you will be using to defend. Twilight after core = more blink heavy, robo = more immortal heavy etc. If you are going blink stalkers and immortals you're going to have to delay your third timing slightly, probably until 11 or 12 minutes. Make 2-3 more cannons at your natural and keep 2 sentries there. This is essential to holding 200/200 roaches unless you like having your forge, core, and natural sniped Get 6-8 sentries. 6 for your army at your third [which should be simcitied + cannoned], 2 at your natural 8-9 minute third, 5 gateways 1 tech, 3 more gateways at third for simcity 10+ minute third, 7 gateways 1 tech, then 3 more 13+ minute third, I hope to god you killed a bunch of drones or his third because you're going to have a hell of a time coming back If you get an early robo, 1 warp prism at the 8-10 minute mark will keep the zerg off your back so you can expand if he went 3 hatch. It's the same concept behind doing the +1 zlot 4gate, dt opening or going stargate. If he takes massive damage from this pressure you can just 2b all in instead of going for a third Don't go colossus too fast. A lot of losses in pvz are from building your robo bay as your third is constructing. By the time he attacks you with 200/200 roaches you might have 1 colossus at best and it'll be useless without range. That means you will have 600/500 less units to defend with. If you try to tech and expand you can't make an army to fight him if he went mass roaches. You're only safe to get colossus while expanding if he's not playing this style of zerg. here is the problem as I see it. Sure you can get an army out to deal with a 3 hatch roach zerg BUT by the time you have that army (immortal, FF, blink stalkers , + 2) the zergs econ and tech will be so disgusting that he will just roll you over with hive tech. By the time you have the army to secure that third base against near max roach army you will be so far from a mothership+archons (as you will not have the additional 2 gas for a long time) that BL/infestor/spine is unbeatable with your "midgame" army.... Thus we see the trend of a players dieing trying to get up that third or two base timings to kill the zergs third..... The only thing I've been making work against zerg is a damn near pure sg play to help me take a third uncontested after the FFE. Essentially you try and dictate their composition by forcing anti air units out. Things that counter it, drops (nydus also) and early roach allins (which you typically don't see with zergs going for fast thirds) ..... At my skill lvl most zergs do one of two things. Overreact to the sg (spores, faster spire/infestation pit or even hyrdas). I've found it actually work to your advantage if they overcompensate for the sg play as they may have enough to contest your dominance in the skies but will likewise lack the ground army to actually kill your bases which should have cannons out the wazoo (picture a muta/ling zerg player hiding behind spines and doing his best to keep you in your base). on the flip side if they don't overreact you are very vulnerable to being worn down by mass roaches.... Think about Genius vs DRG where on entombed he went dbl sg phx into carrier. I believe that DRG got lucky by blind countering the bld but it has potential! If he's going to go to 200/200 roaches with ~60 drones there's no way he can afford to go hive tech reasonably quickly. It all comes down to how well you can defend his aggression. If you take too much damage you'll spend all your resources on rebuilding which gives him the time needed for hive but if you defend it with minimal losses he will be behind. This is the time to take your fourth/get aggressive/teching to stargate/mothership. A stalker immoratl sentry army will demolish a roach one once you have critical mass and enough ff energy. Usually at around 160 supply you can start to move out Basically some combination of sim city/good forcefields/probe cuts/scouting/army spliting/army composition/cannons should hold it off. Another point people might be missing is scouting this roach spam style. If you open pheonix, obs, or hallucination, it's quite easy to scout this zerg style. The lack of hydra den/infestation pit/spire and the low 3-4 gas count really give it away. Also, you should be seeing a large clump of roaches around the 11 minute mark. This gives you enough time to further sim city, cannon up, cut probes, and split up your units properly. Also, some maps like Korhal and Dual Sight I just don't think it's very viable to get a 3rd. If I had to play those maps, I'd just do 2 base aggression every game. Speaking of 2 base allins, the specific allin you tried to do in your replay really had no chance of working. 2 base allins vs zerg should always hit before 11 minutes at the latest; otherwise will always have enough units to hold it off.
Ok, about my all-in, I explained this earlier--I wanted to attack at 10:30, but he had a big army massing outside my door, and I had some immortals and a bunch of naked sentries. Had I pushed out at 10:30, he would have traded his army for my forcefields and immortals, and his reinforcements would have cleaned me before I reached his third. I didn't execute well, but pushing out earlier wasn't going to save me.
And yes, it's easy to scout what's coming, but that doesn't necessarily help you if you don't know how to defend it.
You say, "some combination of sim city/good forcefields/probe cuts/scouting/army spliting/army composition/cannons should hold it off," but what is that combination? Do you have replays or specifics to offer?
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I've been perfecting a 2base double robo 6 gate all-in for zergs. Destroys them most of the time and on maps like shakuras its next to unbeatable. I'm still working on turning it into a build that allows you to take your third while being able to stomp 3 base roach (which I think would be the best answer).
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United States8476 Posts
On March 20 2012 06:56 kcdc wrote:
Ok, about my all-in, I explained this earlier--I wanted to attack at 10:30, but he had a big army massing outside my door, and I had some immortals and a bunch of naked sentries. Had I pushed out at 10:30, he would have traded his army for my forcefields and immortals, and his reinforcements would have cleaned me before I reached his third. I didn't execute well, but pushing out earlier wasn't going to save me.
Then you should figure out a way for that to not happen. Either do some gateway pressure off 1 gateway or pressure with a warp prism. Also, 10:30 is very late to move out.
And yes, it's easy to scout what's coming, but that doesn't necessarily help you if you don't know how to defend it.
You say, "some combination of sim city/good forcefields/probe cuts/scouting/army spliting/army composition/cannons should hold it off," but what is that combination? Do you have replays or specifics to offer?
All of them. There's no reason for you to not be able to do all of them.
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On March 20 2012 07:24 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 06:56 kcdc wrote:
Ok, about my all-in, I explained this earlier--I wanted to attack at 10:30, but he had a big army massing outside my door, and I had some immortals and a bunch of naked sentries. Had I pushed out at 10:30, he would have traded his army for my forcefields and immortals, and his reinforcements would have cleaned me before I reached his third. I didn't execute well, but pushing out earlier wasn't going to save me. Then you should figure out a way for that to not happen. Either do some gateway pressure off 1 gateway or pressure with a warp prism. Also, 10:30 is very late to move out. Show nested quote +And yes, it's easy to scout what's coming, but that doesn't necessarily help you if you don't know how to defend it.
You say, "some combination of sim city/good forcefields/probe cuts/scouting/army spliting/army composition/cannons should hold it off," but what is that combination? Do you have replays or specifics to offer? All of them. There's no reason for you to not be able to do all of them.
Really? You can't contribute at all besides saying, "play well and you'll defend just fine"?
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Do you guys think Stephano is trolling, when he says in interviews that his build is OP and breaks the match up?
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I felt like you had a good 3 minute window where you could have expanded to your third and if he attacked and you had good ff you could have held cost effectively and been fine even though you expanded later, then just go for a fourth and a mothership while maxing out.
You also moved out too early, when toss is at like 130 supply thats right when zerg is maxed and you are hitting your weakest point in comparison to then, thats when you need to be really careful, also with better force fields even out in the open like that you could have just traded a few units on the fringes and pulled back to a choke to keep building up, you didn't have to commit to that engagement.
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On March 20 2012 07:44 Trusty wrote:
Do you guys think Stephano is trolling, when he says in interviews that his build is OP and breaks the match up?
He could be trolling but I doubt it. I will say his build is OP when his build is being used by mediocre zergs and beating good or elite protoss. What makes a build OP is that your opposition has no answer to it or it is guarantteed to do damage or put you ahead no matter the skill level of the two players. Ex of this was the 1/1/1 before all the toss buffs. Protoss just didnt have an answer to this build and low skilled terrans could beat toss that were much better then them by simply using this build. Stephano is has not consistently been tested against elite protoss, so it's hard to say that three hatch against ffe is OP. Stephano is much better then the protoss he plays against so it's hard to say.
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I don't think you should write off the early +1 zealot stuff so quickly, if you can force a bunch of larvae to be spent on things other than drones without losing your army units that's a good result in itself.
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On March 20 2012 07:42 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:24 NrGmonk wrote:On March 20 2012 06:56 kcdc wrote:
Ok, about my all-in, I explained this earlier--I wanted to attack at 10:30, but he had a big army massing outside my door, and I had some immortals and a bunch of naked sentries. Had I pushed out at 10:30, he would have traded his army for my forcefields and immortals, and his reinforcements would have cleaned me before I reached his third. I didn't execute well, but pushing out earlier wasn't going to save me. Then you should figure out a way for that to not happen. Either do some gateway pressure off 1 gateway or pressure with a warp prism. Also, 10:30 is very late to move out. And yes, it's easy to scout what's coming, but that doesn't necessarily help you if you don't know how to defend it.
You say, "some combination of sim city/good forcefields/probe cuts/scouting/army spliting/army composition/cannons should hold it off," but what is that combination? Do you have replays or specifics to offer? All of them. There's no reason for you to not be able to do all of them. Really? You can't contribute at all besides saying, "play well and you'll defend just fine"?
This exactly. There are pro-level players who are having problems with this and a pro-level player saying its imba. Are you saying that they aren't playing well and can't figure out the "combination" that you speak of? Also, many people are misunderstanding the problem here.
Such an aggressive 200/200 roach timing attack should generally be all-in, but it isn't. Defending such an all-in from the other races woud most likely put the defending player in an extremely good position and should win the game. In PvZ, defending this heavy roach push does NOT put protoss in an extremely good position. It actually lets you be even with the Z and w/ the possible followups after the heavy roaches, its become extremely hard to keep up with the right units/tech after defending said push while holding a 3rd.
There are many people complaining about the same thing, and if anyone watches stephano playing against a P, they can see it for their own eyes. Without absolutely perfect play on the protoss end, it becomes impossible to hold a 3rd against this build leaving protoss to fall behind and it does not require the same "perfect play" from the Zerg to win -- this is not so hard to understand.
What happens when the Protoss tries the same thing with an 8 gate 2 base all-in on the Zerg's 3rd? He has a chance to bust, or lose the game. If an 8 gate fails, Protoss loses quickly soon after. The same cannot be said for the Zerg when they bust 200/200 on your 3rd.
Ultimately the commitment vs reward feels generally favored for Zerg when we are looking at most of the current builds Protoss have in their arsenal. 4gate into +1 attacks with hatch snipes don't net the punishment Protoss feel they should get and with other current builds that we have, many people believe that Zerg generally doesn't have as many risks to take to win as Protoss to do the same damage.
Just to throw in another example from another genre:
The fighting game community often splits up the strength of characters by "tiers". Players will judge and place characters into certain tiers based on mostly their damage vs. risk taking. How much damage vs. how much risk it takes to do that damage = tier. Characters capable of high damage without many risks are considered high tier. Since fighting games are extremely hard to balance while making characters also very diverse, tiers are created. A character's tier can and will change constantly throughout the life of the game as people explore new options, abilities, etc. The same can be said for the races in SC2 but with our current knowledge/options, it feels that Zerg is in a higher "tier" or OP, per say.
No, I dont believe Stephano was trolling when he claimed it as well but we have yet to see. We can't all flock to one person's opinion.
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On March 20 2012 08:14 Fenneth wrote:
I don't think you should write off the early +1 zealot stuff so quickly, if you can force a bunch of larvae to be spent on things other than drones without losing your army units that's a good result in itself.
Most zergs can fend it off too easily nowadays.
Just run the drones and queen and get about 1 roach per zealot and you can fend it off. It forces some roaches earlier then they wanted but you rarely get a hatch kill or many queens / drones. You may have set him back a bit but you haven't been building up sentry energy either so taking a third has become virtually impossible.
Given most zergs know how to deal with it now I think delaying the +1 and start early with sentries is a much better move most of the time now.
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I don't think anyone suggesting gateway expands is correct, but I don't think that acting like FFE as the only other option is the correct answer either. There are a myriad of builds in between. Stargate, 3-gate blink, or even a beta-style 2-gate opener are all options that people don't really seem to be considering because they think they are all automatically inferior to an FFE.
I'm not saying to specifically do those either, I'm just saying that the attitude of "gateway expands don't work and FFE doesn't work, therefore build is broken" isn't Starcraft and you should be ashamed to think that way.
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On March 20 2012 08:37 tsuxiit wrote:
I don't think anyone suggesting gateway expands is correct, but I don't think that acting like FFE as the only other option is the correct answer either. There are a myriad of builds in between. Stargate, 3-gate blink, or even a beta-style 2-gate opener are all options that people don't really seem to be considering because they think they are all automatically inferior to an FFE.
I'm not saying to specifically do those either, I'm just saying that the attitude of "gateway expands don't work and FFE doesn't work, therefore build is broken" isn't Starcraft and you should be ashamed to think that way.
You just listed a bunch of gimmicky builds which long-term are less viable still than gateway expands.
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If you limit it to the last 2 months, he's 37-3 vs P. That's 92.5%.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=1996&part=games&vs=P&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2012&from_month=1&from_day=18&to_year=2012&to_month=3&to_day=18&action=Update
Granted, it's against top Euro players like Grubby, Feast and Mana, and not against Code S GSL Koreans, but 92.5% is pretty damn crazy. I'm a Stephano fan, and I recognize that he's better than his opponents, but everyone on that list should have been trying to blind counter Stephano's build, and in sum, they took less than 1 in 10 games off of him.
1 of the losses was the game he lost against elfi where he produced units late and let elfi's immortal/sentry all-in get to his third. The other 2 losses were against Titan who apparently knows something that other Euro Protoss players do not.
In the same time frame, he's won 66% and 73% of his ZvT's and ZvZ's respectively. He's great in every MU, but his ZvP is on another level. And the ZvP build is super easy to copy for any masters Z that wants to try. It's not like an NA Terran trying to copy MKP and discovering that he doesn't have the marine micro to make it work. If you learn Stephano's timings and can hit your injects, you can beat what Protoss players are doing right now. It's time for Protoss to innovate.
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On March 20 2012 09:16 kcdc wrote:
It's not like an NA Terran trying to copy MKP and discovering that he doesn't have the marine micro to make it work. If you learn Stephano's timings and can hit your injects, you can beat what Protoss players are doing right now. It's time for Protoss to innovate.
If this were true, other Zergs would be having similar results to Stephano, which just isn't the case.
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i've seen white ra do a, forge fe, into robo and 4 gates, when he see's roach style opening he chrono's out immo's, if zerg get's a fast 3rd in response to his fe, i've seen him do after forge 1gate robo fast 3rd. but i also only really seen him do it on antiqa or maps with easy 3rd either way.
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EPT
