On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote: Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing.
Zerg denies you scouting a gas going down before the SPAWNING POOL STARTS? How is killing your zealot/zealot scout after you FFE relevant to stopping you from seeing a gas down at 14, before pool?
Gas before pool can mean a speedling expand with speedlings used for pylon spotting and probe killing. The key is letting the toss back into your base far enough to see the hatch and killing it right after. Anyone who throws down 3 or 4 cannons in response to a hatch is playing the metagame and could end up far behind if all the zerg did was get speed and pull drones off of gas. The protoss player will be forced to scout again since they saw gas taken...the point of the hatch being there in the first place is to ease their worries and hope that they read it as a speedling expand build.
On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote: Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing.
Zerg denies you scouting a gas going down before the SPAWNING POOL STARTS? How is killing your zealot/zealot scout after you FFE relevant to stopping you from seeing a gas down at 14, before pool?
The huge proportion of Z's going some form of Roach/Bane ling all-in vs P right now is the reason why I open 3 gate robo expand if I see no 16 hatch, and if you are SO keen to prevent my probes scouting your hatch it's obvious what's going on.
When your all-in is crushed by my gateway immortal army you are so far behind it's essentially a free win.
My all in tends to be like the other posted in that I put up my expo. 14pool, 15/16 hatch. If I scout a bad wall or 2 gate open I use it. If not I can play standard. I've timed it to hit as WG is finishing/stargate play would be a factor. It has the same faults though. 3 canons and a sentry or two and its completely shut down. I delay ling speed for a bit and feel comfortable stopping the scouting zealot with my 4 initial lings and the queen at my expo.
*edit*but thank you for putting up Leenock's build I've been curious what the exact build order is. If he's using it there has to be a reason for the timings!
I remember using this A LOT in the days and week following MLG providence. So many protoss had gotten used to just putting down forge, nexus, cannon, gate, core, make one zealot, and then nonstop chrono probes while getting +1. When suddenly a huge roach ball lands in their face, most of them just raged at the fact that I had "expanded and could still get this many units omg bs".
With regards to all in; yes it is. But, I remember seeing some of Leenocks games from the very same Providence (in particular, his series vs MMA I believe it was) where he would go roach/speedling bust off 2 base to just completely stomp the SlayerS triple orbital reactor hellion build. 3 times in a row. And, (iirc) in one of the games MMA "sort of" held it since he prepared for it - I think it was game 3. And Leenock transitioned right back to droning after his first wave of zergling reinforcements - mindgaming MMA a bit and ended up with an MMA on one base for a looooong time, and a Leenock with a gazillion economy.
Now, since this build foregoes the hatchery, you cannot really drone as efficiently behind it, but if I recall, when you take all drones off gas after the roaches are built, you start piling minerals for a hatchery. You could plant that so its ready and morphed so IF the protoss abandons his natural and walls his main in with mass cannon and a void, you CAN try to transition out of it.
Love this build particularly on Shattered temple. Super hard to go for the fast third there, and muta play is risky with such relatively short rush distances.
Right after Providence I had a topic analyzing and replicating Leenock's build exactly, which created 8 roaches and the speedlings. If you wanted to see some of the discussion back then, you can see that here:
I'm interested in whether going for those extra two roaches is better, since it makes sense that it should, but in any case, I like it a lot. It's a really good mixup build to pull out in a long series, though maybe not necessarily to the extent that Leenock had done it.
I am so glad for these write ups. My ZvP is so bad right now to the point where I lose about 8 out of 10 games with Protoss just shoving a big ball of stuff between my hatcheries. So I am glad for any tool to prevent them from doing that
i will check that build out. my ZvP is horrible because i cant play that much lately. and all i face is 2 base blink stalker stuff. mixing this build in here and there will lower the frustration of the losses :D
On March 02 2012 18:34 Mahtasooma wrote: considering scouting... I think slow Lings will not take out a scouting probe in time because of their almost-identical speed?
Speed will finish before roaches come out - you can catch any late scouts with this.
With regards to pre-speed; your natural is building, so it looks like you're expanding. Should the probe make it into your main, have your queen help kill it. Just make sure you get the far gas and make the roach warren far in the back. I've played the build a fair number of times, and it is entirely possible to deny 'direct scouting' completely.
On March 02 2012 15:43 Xorphene wrote: The huge proportion of Z's going some form of Roach/Bane ling all-in vs P right now is the reason why I open 3 gate robo expand if I see no 16 hatch, and if you are SO keen to prevent my probes scouting your hatch it's obvious what's going on.
When your all-in is crushed by my gateway immortal army you are so far behind it's essentially a free win.
Um, this is a build to do against a protoss doing FFE. It was clearly described as such in the OP. Did you not read it? Unless you have an ingenious way of making your "3 gate robo expand" look like a FFE, of course....
Nice guide for an allin that looks pretty strong. I might go try this next time a protoss is BM at the start of a game :D
i guess theres a reason i make 2 cannons if i see gas opening from zerg, i think the last 20 times i saw gas first from zerg it was some type of all in / 2 base nydus cheese
EPT
