Hello Teamliquid and welcome to my newest guide on ZvP!
As the title implies, I'm going to analyze the Korean Pro Leenock and his very aggressive 10 Roach Rush designed to kill FFE or Nexus-first protoss openings before the 8minute mark. You might remember Leenock using this style to defeat Naniwa in the finals of MLG Providence (if not, I'll provide links below). At the time, there was a lot of buzz surrounding the victory – Leenock was considered the underdog, and there were more than a few discussions on TL and on Reddit about how successful Leenock's early pressure was at exploiting Naniwa's FFE. The hype has died down a bit, but I think enough time has passed to revisit this build!
Many zerg players struggle and struggle playing a macro style against greedy protoss players who open nexus-first or forge fast-expand. This build is partly designed to keep protoss players "honest". The basic idea is to fake an expansion, get ling speed to deny scouting, and cancel the hatchery to execute an all-in Roach/Ling timing attack before Stargates or Warpgate tech finish:
10Roach and 20 Speedlings arrive at opponent's base at 7:20.
Before the start of season 6, I spent about a week practicing new styles of ZvP and I was surprised at how successful this build can be. It's very strong, hard to scout, and even harder to stop. It's not invincible by any means, and it's certainly not a "be all end all" to ZvP, but it is an effective all-in to incorporate in your set of ladder or tournament builds and I encourage all you Zerg players to experiment with it!
NOTE: Due to technical difficulties, the stream video went blank between 7:00 and 20:15. Two of the replay analysis have been restreamed here (sorry for the inconvenience!): http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/310280534
14Gas 14Pool 15Overlord 15 Queen/6Lings/Zergling Speed (Remove 2 from gas until you chase probe away) 20 Expansion Hatchery 19 Drone 20 Overlord x2 20 Roach Warren (4:20-4:30) Zergling speed finishes, cancel hatch shortly after. (5:10-5:30) Warren finishes around 5:45, begin 10 Roaches immediately (You should be at 20 out of 42 supply, allowing you to make 10 right away) After roaches, remove from gas and produce 1 overlord. Continuously produce lings rallied to your roaches.
This is the MOST important part of the build. Your first 6 zerglings are so crucial in denying your protoss opponent the crucial information he needs to respond to your attack.
Step 1: Chase away his initial probe so that you can fill up your gas without him knowing. Step 2: Get a Zergling to the xel naga towers (Especially important on a map like shakuras where the Xel vision covers the whole middle of the map). Step 3: Get a Zergling to the protoss front to "Spot" any units/probes leaving the base. Step 4: Scout any possible locations where he could hide a probe. Step 5: Deny any zealot/stalker scouting (Sometimes players send 2 zealots, watch game against CCDP)
Keep in mind you could also position overlords for map vision. Below are a few examples of how you can scout with your lings (Forgive the elementary design!)
The most important aspect of the execution is actually the above note on "Denying Scouting". I really can't emphasize the importance of using those zerglings to kill scouting probes and zealots.
Assuming you've successfully kept your opponent in the dark, you should encounter a pretty soft protoss defense: 1-2 Cannons, 1-2 sentries, maybe a zealot or stalker. Cannons will always be the highest DPS so typically you'll want to focus those down first, but you could opt to kill pylons first too. For example...
Either option is viable, the thing to remember is not to be shy with your roach engagement – Get up close and try to focus down those cannons and units! You want to have all 10 of your roaches within range of attacking a cannon. If there are two cannons, I usually take 5 roaches to each side and snipe both simultaneously. Once any cannons within range are destroyed, break in through a pylon, forge, or cyber core and kill probes with zerglings. If he has a very light defense because he's intending to produce voidrays, move your roaches in right away and go for the pylons powering the Stargate. You should be able to kill it before any air units are out.
1) Could you transition and expand after the roaches and lings are out? (Say 50ish supply) 2) How can a protoss player scout and respond to this? 3) If the protoss player is denied scouting info, are they forced to blindly build additional cannons? 4) Can this build be used against any none-FFE builds?
As always, I want to thank you all for reading and supporting! I welcome any constructive feedback/criticism on this guide. I want to know everyone's opinion on content so please contribute to this poll:
Poll: Are you happy with the topics I choose for my guides?
Yes, I enjoy reading about / incorporating aggressive styles. (221)
78%
(22)
8%
No, I would prefer if your future guides focused more on standard/macro styles. (21)
7%
Yes/No. I do enjoy aggressive builds, but I'd like to see more variety in the styles you choose. (20)
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284 total votes
Your vote: Are you happy with the topics I choose for my guides?
(Vote): Yes, I enjoy reading about / incorporating aggressive styles. (Vote): No, I would prefer if your future guides focused more on standard/macro styles. (Vote): Yes/No. I do enjoy aggressive builds, but I'd like to see more variety in the styles you choose. (Vote):
In an effort to produce more content, I'm looking for more help in producing coaching and tutorial videos - if you're interested in contributing written or video content please check out www.TangStarcraft.com
On March 02 2012 07:30 Trusty wrote: Requesting TangSC meme: All-in, OR IS IT?
Haha this one definitely is all in. Though in about 2% of games you may contain him to 1 base kill his natural and be forced to expand yourself...but that seems unlikely.
On March 02 2012 07:30 Trusty wrote: Requesting TangSC meme: All-in, OR IS IT?
Haha this one definitely is all in. Though in about 2% of games you may contain him to 1 base kill his natural and be forced to expand yourself...but that seems unlikely.
If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
14/14 is to keep P in the dark.
Gasless into roach/ling is pretty easy to spot - since you need more than 4 lings to kill 1 zealot, without speed.
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
14/14 is to keep P in the dark.
Gasless into roach/ling is pretty easy to spot - since you need more than 4 lings to kill 1 zealot, without speed.
With the 3rd base, I actually want him to scout. I have a queen and creep to help my slow lings keep him out of my natural, and speed should still finish in time for me to catch his zealots without having to show any roaches.
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
gassless = gl denying probe scouts. Your claimed timing of 7:45 and Leenocks 7:10 is the difference between a protoss who doesn't have warpgates / a completed stargate, or one who does.
edit: this type of all-in usually straight up wins or loses, it's rare to find an inbetween. Sure yours has more economy and has stronger reinforcements, but I sure hope those extra speedlings can jump over forcefields because that's the timing you're playing off of.
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
gassless = gl denying probe scouts. Your claimed timing of 7:45 and Leenocks 7:10 is the difference between a protoss who doesn't have warpgates / a completed stargate, or one who does.
That's what I was thinking. If you want to just put on pressure while macroing, do what Leenock does against Naniwa in the other games - same build but no hatch cancel, use the roaches to pick off forge/cyber/gateway/pylons but don't commit to an all-in, drone behind it.
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
gassless = gl denying probe scouts. Your claimed timing of 7:45 and Leenocks 7:10 is the difference between a protoss who doesn't have warpgates / a completed stargate, or one who does.
That's what I was thinking. If you want to just put on pressure while macroing, do what Leenock does against Naniwa in the other games - same build but no hatch cancel, use the roaches to pick off forge/cyber/gateway/pylons but don't commit to an all-in, drone behind it.
oic, then yea if you don't want to all-in then it's a different story altogether
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
gassless = gl denying probe scouts. Your claimed timing of 7:45 and Leenocks 7:10 is the difference between a protoss who doesn't have warpgates / a completed stargate, or one who does.
That's what I was thinking. If you want to just put on pressure while macroing, do what Leenock does against Naniwa in the other games - same build but no hatch cancel, use the roaches to pick off forge/cyber/gateway/pylons but don't commit to an all-in, drone behind it.
oic, then yea if you don't want to all-in then it's a different story altogether
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
gassless = gl denying probe scouts. Your claimed timing of 7:45 and Leenocks 7:10 is the difference between a protoss who doesn't have warpgates / a completed stargate, or one who does.
That's what I was thinking. If you want to just put on pressure while macroing, do what Leenock does against Naniwa in the other games - same build but no hatch cancel, use the roaches to pick off forge/cyber/gateway/pylons but don't commit to an all-in, drone behind it.
oic, then yea if you don't want to all-in then it's a different story altogether
No no I'm agreeing with you, it's still a 14g14p.
haha i realized after I posted and didn't want to bother editing hoping you'll just read it the right way ^^
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
gassless = gl denying probe scouts. Your claimed timing of 7:45 and Leenocks 7:10 is the difference between a protoss who doesn't have warpgates / a completed stargate, or one who does.
edit: this type of all-in usually straight up wins or loses, it's rare to find an inbetween. Sure yours has more economy and has stronger reinforcements, but I sure hope those extra speedlings can jump over forcefields because that's the timing you're playing off of.
He usually won't have enough forcefields. You are correct that the timing lines up with warpgate and void ray. In the replay I posted, warpgate finished just as I was attacking, and he had a void ray out, and it didn't matter. If toss builds a bunch of extra cannons, they repel it quite easily, but without the cannons, they still die.
If you want to hit earlier, you can cut more drones, letting you bank more money for the roaches. That works too, but you'll have fewer lings later on. It's still intended to be an all in, despite having more hatcheries. They just give it more reinforcing power. You have the option of scouting his wall off before committing to zerglings, and you can drone behind it if he cannoned up, but you'll be behind anyway because you made the roaches.
This build is so hard to hold off as Protoss. Today on Ladder, nearly every Zerg did this to me. Especially in the meta game, from what I have noticed, if Protoss are denied scouting, a lot of them will play greedy, including myself because of the amazing lead that Zerg can get on workers.
Yeah, scout the gas after 100 gas see if he's mining more (even if it's just 1 drone). If so, try to scout the 3rd base by around 5minutes. If he doesn't have a 3rd by 5min and you scouted 14/14, you should just build a 3rd cannon to be safe (in my opinion).
On March 02 2012 08:17 ODKStevez wrote: This build is so hard to hold off as Protoss. Today on Ladder, nearly every Zerg did this to me. Especially in the meta game, from what I have noticed, if Protoss are denied scouting, a lot of them will play greedy, including myself because of the amazing lead that Zerg can get on workers.
if they open 14/14 into 3 hatch, they don't get as much of an 'amazing lead' as compared to what you're used to with non-speed into 3 hatch.
If your scouting is getting denied by non-speed builds, then you're not scouting correctly (probe/zealots).
I have an idea: what if instead of mining gas with 1 drone, you ceased to mine after the first 100. And then, wait until the timing lines up and at the correct moment put 3 drones back on gas. This way the enemy probe won't be able to scout any mining gas. Secondly you'll have slightly more mins then gas early game which might help slightly.
As far as ease of use I think one drone is better but I'm thinking in ultimate build terms.
Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
Im a diamond toss looking to switch to zerg... just because i find them a lot more fun. though i just havent watched enough zerg play(besides zvp). If someone wants to help me out that would be great :D
On March 02 2012 08:21 TangSC wrote: Yeah, scout the gas after 100 gas see if he's mining more (even if it's just 1 drone). If so, try to scout the 3rd base by around 5minutes. If he doesn't have a 3rd by 5min and you scouted 14/14, you should just build a 3rd cannon to be safe (in my opinion).
That's something I've learned the hard way on KR ladder. This build is very popular at platinum level there together with bane busts. However the same scouting information can as well mean 2 base mutas which require totally different response, unless I'm missing something. Also are 3 cannons (with 1 unit) enough to hold this off? Do you have any replays of games you lost doing this?
In the last game of MLG Providence, (this one) he decides to only make 6 roaches, only a few zerglings and still go on with making a hatchery and try to get ahead. How do you feel about this?
On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote: Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing. So yea, I know to throw up cannons, but the timings are difficult and the decision to go three cannons or four needs to be made relatively quickly. I usually need four to hold roach rushes--but if the Z isn't going to rush me, four cannons is such a resource sink. I also have to make a decision to get a sentry (better vs blings) or a stalker (better vs roaches) without knowing exactly what is coming.
But I have to disagree with the notion that this only punishes greedy toss. I usually forge first and I still find that if denied a decent scout, these all-ins are hard to hold. I just feel that the myth of the greedy toss needs to be dispelled: even against a Nexus first opening, a zerg can still get a worker advantage entering the midgame. In my opinion, the evolution of Nexus-first builds is in response to the toss NEED to keep up with Zerg drone production more than it is an attempt to be greedy.
1) Could you transition and expand after the roaches and lings are out? If you cancel the hatch, your all in. Unless you completely cripple the Tosser, you can't really transition from this.
2) How can a protoss player scout and respond to this? You've laid out some really nice scouting paths, but even with 6 lings, the 2 zealot scout can normally gather a fair bit of information.
3) If the protoss player is denied scouting info, are they forced to blindly build additional cannons? In theory, they should be forced to build 1/2 more, but in reality they don't because their greedy, and thus, deserve to die to well crafted all ins like this.
4) Can this build be used against any none-FFE builds? It can work against a 1gate expand, but against anything more than that, it just doesn't work. If they go DT expand you lose, same more or less for stargate play.
tang it's good that you recognize that this crap doesn't work vs terran. your website earlier had you as a proponent of this strategy vs terran. I ran into a bunch of people mid masters that seemed to be trying it. I had a field day
On March 02 2012 12:29 OPL3SA2 wrote: tang it's good that you recognize that this crap doesn't work vs terran. your website earlier had you as a proponent of this strategy vs terran. I ran into a bunch of people mid masters that seemed to be trying it. I had a field day
Never done this build in ZvT, but I know some nice alternatives to standard macro.
On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote: Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing.
Zerg denies you scouting a gas going down before the SPAWNING POOL STARTS? How is killing your zealot/zealot scout after you FFE relevant to stopping you from seeing a gas down at 14, before pool?
On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote: Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing.
Zerg denies you scouting a gas going down before the SPAWNING POOL STARTS? How is killing your zealot/zealot scout after you FFE relevant to stopping you from seeing a gas down at 14, before pool?
Early gas can still mean a lot of different builds though, it doesn't HAVE to mean anything super-aggressive.
On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote: Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing.
Zerg denies you scouting a gas going down before the SPAWNING POOL STARTS? How is killing your zealot/zealot scout after you FFE relevant to stopping you from seeing a gas down at 14, before pool?
Gas before pool can mean a speedling expand with speedlings used for pylon spotting and probe killing. The key is letting the toss back into your base far enough to see the hatch and killing it right after. Anyone who throws down 3 or 4 cannons in response to a hatch is playing the metagame and could end up far behind if all the zerg did was get speed and pull drones off of gas. The protoss player will be forced to scout again since they saw gas taken...the point of the hatch being there in the first place is to ease their worries and hope that they read it as a speedling expand build.
On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote: Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing.
Zerg denies you scouting a gas going down before the SPAWNING POOL STARTS? How is killing your zealot/zealot scout after you FFE relevant to stopping you from seeing a gas down at 14, before pool?
The huge proportion of Z's going some form of Roach/Bane ling all-in vs P right now is the reason why I open 3 gate robo expand if I see no 16 hatch, and if you are SO keen to prevent my probes scouting your hatch it's obvious what's going on.
When your all-in is crushed by my gateway immortal army you are so far behind it's essentially a free win.
My all in tends to be like the other posted in that I put up my expo. 14pool, 15/16 hatch. If I scout a bad wall or 2 gate open I use it. If not I can play standard. I've timed it to hit as WG is finishing/stargate play would be a factor. It has the same faults though. 3 canons and a sentry or two and its completely shut down. I delay ling speed for a bit and feel comfortable stopping the scouting zealot with my 4 initial lings and the queen at my expo.
*edit*but thank you for putting up Leenock's build I've been curious what the exact build order is. If he's using it there has to be a reason for the timings!
I remember using this A LOT in the days and week following MLG providence. So many protoss had gotten used to just putting down forge, nexus, cannon, gate, core, make one zealot, and then nonstop chrono probes while getting +1. When suddenly a huge roach ball lands in their face, most of them just raged at the fact that I had "expanded and could still get this many units omg bs".
With regards to all in; yes it is. But, I remember seeing some of Leenocks games from the very same Providence (in particular, his series vs MMA I believe it was) where he would go roach/speedling bust off 2 base to just completely stomp the SlayerS triple orbital reactor hellion build. 3 times in a row. And, (iirc) in one of the games MMA "sort of" held it since he prepared for it - I think it was game 3. And Leenock transitioned right back to droning after his first wave of zergling reinforcements - mindgaming MMA a bit and ended up with an MMA on one base for a looooong time, and a Leenock with a gazillion economy.
Now, since this build foregoes the hatchery, you cannot really drone as efficiently behind it, but if I recall, when you take all drones off gas after the roaches are built, you start piling minerals for a hatchery. You could plant that so its ready and morphed so IF the protoss abandons his natural and walls his main in with mass cannon and a void, you CAN try to transition out of it.
Love this build particularly on Shattered temple. Super hard to go for the fast third there, and muta play is risky with such relatively short rush distances.
Right after Providence I had a topic analyzing and replicating Leenock's build exactly, which created 8 roaches and the speedlings. If you wanted to see some of the discussion back then, you can see that here:
I'm interested in whether going for those extra two roaches is better, since it makes sense that it should, but in any case, I like it a lot. It's a really good mixup build to pull out in a long series, though maybe not necessarily to the extent that Leenock had done it.
I am so glad for these write ups. My ZvP is so bad right now to the point where I lose about 8 out of 10 games with Protoss just shoving a big ball of stuff between my hatcheries. So I am glad for any tool to prevent them from doing that
i will check that build out. my ZvP is horrible because i cant play that much lately. and all i face is 2 base blink stalker stuff. mixing this build in here and there will lower the frustration of the losses :D
On March 02 2012 18:34 Mahtasooma wrote: considering scouting... I think slow Lings will not take out a scouting probe in time because of their almost-identical speed?
Speed will finish before roaches come out - you can catch any late scouts with this.
With regards to pre-speed; your natural is building, so it looks like you're expanding. Should the probe make it into your main, have your queen help kill it. Just make sure you get the far gas and make the roach warren far in the back. I've played the build a fair number of times, and it is entirely possible to deny 'direct scouting' completely.
On March 02 2012 15:43 Xorphene wrote: The huge proportion of Z's going some form of Roach/Bane ling all-in vs P right now is the reason why I open 3 gate robo expand if I see no 16 hatch, and if you are SO keen to prevent my probes scouting your hatch it's obvious what's going on.
When your all-in is crushed by my gateway immortal army you are so far behind it's essentially a free win.
Um, this is a build to do against a protoss doing FFE. It was clearly described as such in the OP. Did you not read it? Unless you have an ingenious way of making your "3 gate robo expand" look like a FFE, of course....
Nice guide for an allin that looks pretty strong. I might go try this next time a protoss is BM at the start of a game :D
i guess theres a reason i make 2 cannons if i see gas opening from zerg, i think the last 20 times i saw gas first from zerg it was some type of all in / 2 base nydus cheese
I can see this working on korhal and cloud kingdom where you can have an overlord right at the wall-off, you can see exactly how many cannons there are and act accordingly.
++for NRGMonk for using a flying barracks to pick off my overlord on top of that high ground two days ago.
The only problem with zergs on ladder (or master level eu ladder at least) is at least 90% of players who get gas all-in and at least 90% of players who don't get gas don't all-in. To keep protoss honest more zerg players need to get gas just for the zergling speed and still play a macro game. Nowadays I assume gas indicates an all-in and I am so careful, 2nd cannon even with 0 scouting that these attacks very rarely break me. I know it's bad play to prepare for something that may or may not come if you don't get a scout of but that's zerg players fault for being too 1-dimensional in ladder metagame
and to comment above I feel if protoss times their extra cannons well if it's roach aggression you've already made the roaches destroying your economy because you don't see much defence but his cannons come up in time to stop aggression.
On March 02 2012 10:16 jimbob615 wrote: Hi Tang, nice guide.
I have an idea: what if instead of mining gas with 1 drone, you ceased to mine after the first 100. And then, wait until the timing lines up and at the correct moment put 3 drones back on gas. This way the enemy probe won't be able to scout any mining gas. Secondly you'll have slightly more mins then gas early game which might help slightly.
As far as ease of use I think one drone is better but I'm thinking in ultimate build terms.
You might end up with one less roach, but it's not a bad idea. I'd have to experiment with it to see whether you can still get enough roaches when the warren finishes.
On March 02 2012 23:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: The only problem with zergs on ladder (or master level eu ladder at least) is at least 90% of players who get gas all-in and at least 90% of players who don't get gas don't all-in. To keep protoss honest more zerg players need to get gas just for the zergling speed and still play a macro game. Nowadays I assume gas indicates an all-in and I am so careful, 2nd cannon even with 0 scouting that these attacks very rarely break me. I know it's bad play to prepare for something that may or may not come if you don't get a scout of but that's zerg players fault for being too 1-dimensional in ladder metagame
and to comment above I feel if protoss times their extra cannons well if it's roach aggression you've already made the roaches destroying your economy because you don't see much defence but his cannons come up in time to stop aggression.
Taking no gas before 6:00 versus taking early gas. What good does early gas do? You will have 4 zerglings out at most. You will be able to deny (or at least spot) any probe walking out to proxy a pylon somewhere with or without speed.
If you take gas at 6:00 you will still have speed before it becomes viable. Or am I missing something here?
To all the toss out there, a nice tip to see if the zerg is all ining you: with 14/14 speed finishes around 5:10min, so until then keep your probe alive and do not try to scout the hatchery, instead just go in the main, click on the extractor and see how much gaz has been mined. If the count is under 2400 prepare for some kind of bust or ridiculously fast lair.
On March 02 2012 23:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: The only problem with zergs on ladder (or master level eu ladder at least) is at least 90% of players who get gas all-in and at least 90% of players who don't get gas don't all-in. To keep protoss honest more zerg players need to get gas just for the zergling speed and still play a macro game. Nowadays I assume gas indicates an all-in and I am so careful, 2nd cannon even with 0 scouting that these attacks very rarely break me. I know it's bad play to prepare for something that may or may not come if you don't get a scout of but that's zerg players fault for being too 1-dimensional in ladder metagame
and to comment above I feel if protoss times their extra cannons well if it's roach aggression you've already made the roaches destroying your economy because you don't see much defence but his cannons come up in time to stop aggression.
Taking no gas before 6:00 versus taking early gas. What good does early gas do? You will have 4 zerglings out at most. You will be able to deny (or at least spot) any probe walking out to proxy a pylon somewhere with or without speed.
If you take gas at 6:00 you will still have speed before it becomes viable. Or am I missing something here?
but will you be able to stop a suicide probe getting a read on no third base, let alone no natural...I doubt it? also what is the timing for first zealot out...assuming he send it across the map can you stop this zealot getting a scout off?
this is why I feel delayed gas all-ins are a big gamble. You are relying on the protoss player scouting no initial gas and becoming complacent. If the protoss player is persistent with his scouting I cannot see how the delayed gas all-in can work barring a major fuck-up from the protoss player
On March 02 2012 23:26 Girondelle wrote: To all the toss out there, a nice tip to see if the zerg is all ining you: with 14/14 speed finishes around 5:10min, so until then keep your probe alive and do not try to scout the hatchery, instead just go in the main, click on the extractor and see how much gaz has been mined. If the count is under 2400 prepare for some kind of bust or ridiculously fast lair.
Great tip, very true. When protoss or terran scout zerg early, one of the most important things is to check gas timing and how much is being mined.
On March 02 2012 23:26 Girondelle wrote: To all the toss out there, a nice tip to see if the zerg is all ining you: with 14/14 speed finishes around 5:10min, so until then keep your probe alive and do not try to scout the hatchery, instead just go in the main, click on the extractor and see how much gaz has been mined. If the count is under 2400 prepare for some kind of bust or ridiculously fast lair.
But do I want to spam 5 cannons against fast lair? Elaborate more please.
Btw guys, are you sure 1 -amove zealot to 3rd, 1-2 hidden probes +1 scouting probes will not get into main or nat when you have only 6 speedlings? (I'm trying testing this right now)
Someone might comment I'm doing something wrong but I always hide my hatchery block probe and go to his nat again and then see his gas, I also get 1 zealot asap rallied to his 3rd with a-move and clean watchtower in midway if possible (liek shattered temple) then head it to natural. (I usually get Zealot>Zealot > Sentry > sentry and go for hreoic +1 FFE). I think I would start pulling hidden probes if I didn't see anything so far but even if I see something theres like 30-50second reaction time I think and cannon takes 40seconds. What kind of simcity would I want with this? And most importantly, how many cannons?
Just few of my instant thoughts. Mainly just imagining a zealot walking across map where is 6 speedlings ~ spread out, then sending them to zealot while my probe happily goes to his nat and main.
i just tried this on ladder. I denied all scouting possible, I even built my 3rd and his probe scouted it. I never build at natural and he tried to send a probe in but my speedlings picked him off before going up the ramp. When i arrived with the roaches I find 3 cannons and a sentry with more sentries being chronoboosted.
I had no choice but to back off. I droned pretty hard but he moved out with immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot. Pretty hard to beat when you're stuck on roach ling because you have to drone very hard to catch up. At the time of the attack i have 14 drones while he has 28. I do no damage because of the 3 cannons and sentries (well I sniped the forge). I ask after how he knew it was coming and he said since u get gas and deny scouting so hard he puts a 3rd cannon up anyways.
This worked for me when the player aren't as safe, but against a player that knows what he is doing, this is too all in. It's not like the ZvT roach ling attack as that has more drones and not as all in.
I don't think I will be doing this as much anymore. but will continue to gas first, get speed and pull just to deny scouting and hope to force extra defense and slow their tech/econ. This is a good tournament build when it's a BO series. I don't think it's useful on ladder.
On March 02 2012 23:48 Northern_iight wrote: i just tried this on ladder. I denied all scouting possible, I even built my 3rd and his probe scouted it. I never build at natural and he tried to send a probe in but my speedlings picked him off before going up the ramp. When i arrived with the roaches I find 3 cannons and a sentry with more sentries being chronoboosted.
I had no choice but to back off. I droned pretty hard but he moved out with immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot. Pretty hard to beat when you're stuck on roach ling because you have to drone very hard to catch up. At the time of the attack i have 14 drones while he has 28. I do no damage because of the 3 cannons and sentries (well I sniped the forge). I ask after how he knew it was coming and he said since u get gas and deny scouting so hard he puts a 3rd cannon up anyways.
This worked for me when the player aren't as safe, but against a player that knows what he is doing, this is too all in. It's not like the ZvT roach ling attack as that has more drones and not as all in.
I don't think I will be doing this as much anymore. but will continue to gas first, get speed and pull just to deny scouting and hope to force extra defense and slow their tech/econ. This is a good tournament build when it's a BO series. I don't think it's useful on ladder.
On March 02 2012 07:50 Oboeman wrote: If you open gasless instead of 14/14 you can squeeze in more drones, and then you don't even need to cancel the hatch. I hit a bit later, but with bigger economy for more speedling reinforcements. Usually I hit 7:45ish with 8 roaches and 20 lings, producing lings continuously off of double injects. It's still early enough that protoss automatically dies if they didn't build a bunch of extra cannons. The roaches take down the wall and the constant stream of speedlings finishes him off even if he made a void ray.
I also have a variation of it (similar to zenio's baneling bust) where I take a fast 3rd hatch instead of a second queen, to make it much more difficult to scout. I try to show him the 3rd base, but prevent him from scouting my gas. I hit with 8 roaches and rally speedlings from 3 hatches with one queen. http://drop.sc/103680
gassless = gl denying probe scouts. Your claimed timing of 7:45 and Leenocks 7:10 is the difference between a protoss who doesn't have warpgates / a completed stargate, or one who does.
edit: this type of all-in usually straight up wins or loses, it's rare to find an inbetween. Sure yours has more economy and has stronger reinforcements, but I sure hope those extra speedlings can jump over forcefields because that's the timing you're playing off of.
He usually won't have enough forcefields. You are correct that the timing lines up with warpgate and void ray. In the replay I posted, warpgate finished just as I was attacking, and he had a void ray out, and it didn't matter. If toss builds a bunch of extra cannons, they repel it quite easily, but without the cannons, they still die.
If you want to hit earlier, you can cut more drones, letting you bank more money for the roaches. That works too, but you'll have fewer lings later on. It's still intended to be an all in, despite having more hatcheries. They just give it more reinforcing power. You have the option of scouting his wall off before committing to zerglings, and you can drone behind it if he cannoned up, but you'll be behind anyway because you made the roaches.
I kinda like this variation, except I do think it's better to hit earlier. I don't see the point of getting your gas earlier for earlier speed, then cancelling your hatch, which they would have no way of seeing anyway since you got early ling speed. If you're going to cancel the hatch, then let them see it, and hold off on your gas for as long as possible.
On March 02 2012 23:48 Northern_iight wrote: i just tried this on ladder. I denied all scouting possible, I even built my 3rd and his probe scouted it. I never build at natural and he tried to send a probe in but my speedlings picked him off before going up the ramp. When i arrived with the roaches I find 3 cannons and a sentry with more sentries being chronoboosted.
I have not encountered such a blind overreaction using this build. (I've been using it every game versus Protoss for a few days). He must have smelled something, or is randomly blind countering roach busts.
I had no choice but to back off. I droned pretty hard but he moved out with immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot. Pretty hard to beat when you're stuck on roach ling because you have to drone very hard to catch up. At the time of the attack i have 14 drones while he has 28. I do no damage because of the 3 cannons and sentries (well I sniped the forge). I ask after how he knew it was coming and he said since u get gas and deny scouting so hard he puts a 3rd cannon up anyways.
Agreed that it is nearly impossible to win if the roach bust fails.
This worked for me when the player aren't as safe, but against a player that knows what he is doing, this is too all in. It's not like the ZvT roach ling attack as that has more drones and not as all in.
I don't know. Even most Protoss who know what they are doing are playing extremely greedy versus Zerg atm, and have a good chance of falling to this roach bust. Sure the attack is all in, but it is extremely strong if they are not prepared.
I don't think I will be doing this as much anymore. but will continue to gas first, get speed and pull just to deny scouting and hope to force extra defense and slow their tech/econ. This is a good tournament build when it's a BO series. I don't think it's useful on ladder.
My win rate on ladder with this build has been nearly 100% over about 15 or so games. I think it is very useful on ladder. Will it work every single time? No. However I think in the current metagame it should win you the game 8/10 assuming they FFE.
On March 02 2012 23:26 Girondelle wrote: To all the toss out there, a nice tip to see if the zerg is all ining you: with 14/14 speed finishes around 5:10min, so until then keep your probe alive and do not try to scout the hatchery, instead just go in the main, click on the extractor and see how much gaz has been mined. If the count is under 2400 prepare for some kind of bust or ridiculously fast lair.
But do I want to spam 5 cannons against fast lair? Elaborate more please.
Btw guys, are you sure 1 -amove zealot to 3rd, 1-2 hidden probes +1 scouting probes will not get into main or nat when you have only 6 speedlings? (I'm trying testing this right now)
Someone might comment I'm doing something wrong but I always hide my hatchery block probe and go to his nat again and then see his gas, I also get 1 zealot asap rallied to his 3rd with a-move and clean watchtower in midway if possible (liek shattered temple) then head it to natural. (I usually get Zealot>Zealot > Sentry > sentry and go for hreoic +1 FFE). I think I would start pulling hidden probes if I didn't see anything so far but even if I see something theres like 30-50second reaction time I think and cannon takes 40seconds. What kind of simcity would I want with this? And most importantly, how many cannons?
Just few of my instant thoughts. Mainly just imagining a zealot walking across map where is 6 speedlings ~ spread out, then sending them to zealot while my probe happily goes to his nat and main.
good zergs will in the time before you first zealot can come out have one ling outside your base watching for probes trying to leave and the rest will be scouring the map looking for your hidden probe. hiding a probe is certainly the correct thing to do but many zergs will find it.
hence why i always make at least a second cannon, chrono sentries and solidify wall versus gas openings incase i cannot scout but still have a chance to hold . if he is playing a macro game anyway then i am more than happy making an extra cannon after he's chosen zergling speed over drones.
5 cannons may be overdoing it. I find 3 cannons is usually enough for me to hold versus roaches or banelings (number of cannons is obviously just one factor in holding. the wall is just as if not more important, once the wall is broken and they can run by it's almost gg)....against fast lair i don't find this excessive, obviously if you can scout the lair wonderful but otherwise fair lair is sacrificing a fair bit of economy so having an extra cannon or two isn't the end of the world.
just try and see how few cannons you can get away with, if you die try an extra cannon next time until you find a number you feel comfortable with...as you can always start backup cannons once you know it's not gas for fast lair.
jsut played a ZvP on TDA where I open 14/14 and denied all scouting but did a simple speedling expand into normal macro game. I checked replay to see his reaction to all the denied scouting. He did have a pylon above the clife at my 3rd and saw my 3rd building. I knocked it out before my hatch finished but it was kinda late and to the timing of a real 3rd. Assuming I was doing what i did before he had little on defense. If I was doing this build, I would've crushed him with this attack. He had 1 cannon, 1 zealot and 1 stalker at around 7:30 mark and a sentry on the way. I think i'll give this build another shot
On March 02 2012 11:50 Host- wrote: 1) Could you transition and expand after the roaches and lings are out? If you cancel the hatch, your all in. Unless you completely cripple the Tosser, you can't really transition from this.
You either break him or you don't. He either has enough cannons/forcefield to hold his expansion - in which case you are superdead even if you have your expansion up and droned behind the opening, or he doesn't have enough cannons and dies.
The only "in-between" scenario where you would actually have to transition is if he manages to wall his main in with cannons and get warp-gate or a stargate up, in which case you failed your control.
don't protosses other than myself scout the zerg's main again at 5:00 for roach warren anyway? this is before ling speed hits in this build, i don't see how this comes in time to deny scouting.
On March 03 2012 03:19 Champ121 wrote: don't protosses other than myself scout the zerg's main again at 5:00 for roach warren anyway? this is before ling speed hits in this build, i don't see how this comes in time to deny scouting.
Well you will have a queen and lings. If you watch the stream lessons, you'll see that IF protoss tries to get a probe in, a combination of your zerglings chasing it with your queen at the top of the ramp will deny scouting of the warren 100% of the time.
I actually find this very interesting, and a great solution to what I've been doing wrong in ZvP lately. I've been doing heavy macro with 15 hatch 16 pool and then going into a roach/infestor build. I think this might be a little faster, and less hassle than doing that long risky macro game with a Protoss player.
My hope is that this build will become prevolent enough to force a slight change in the current metagame so that toss is forced to be less gready and play a bit more defensive.
My guess is that in a while toss will become smart to it and as soon as they scout a gas first speedling opening they will spend resources to turtle up with extra cannons. You can then simply decide not to cancel and build drones/third hatch with the knowlege that you are likely safe from early pressure/all-ins.
I see this as letting zerg regain the early to mid-game tactical advantage to some extent.
On March 03 2012 06:17 PsyStarcraft wrote: None of the replays match the build order timings listed. Even if you follow the build order perfectly, a 4:20 roach warren isn't possible.
I was wondering about this myself, faced a protoss today and decided to go for the tactic and the 4:20 Roach warren was more like 4:30-4:40
On March 03 2012 06:17 PsyStarcraft wrote: None of the replays match the build order timings listed. Even if you follow the build order perfectly, a 4:20 roach warren isn't possible.
Thanks for pointing the roach warren timing out, it'll be about 4:30-4:40 for the warren. On an unrelated note... Psy vs Tang Bo5?
well i gave it another go. I missed alot of timings but still managed to pull it off as the protoss was playing very aggressive FFE. Building 2 zealots and heading to my base. I went around with the roaches and killed his zealots with around 12 lings. I arrived at his door with roaches shortly after and broke the wall. Ez win. All ins good. on another note, protoss player kinda angry how he can't scout this and left. Good to know how it feels now eh?
I have already tried this a few times without issue today. It seemed to throw a lot of people off in ZvP. I also did it versus Terran to see what happens and it actually wasn't half bad. Didn't face any Zerg today for some reason.
On March 03 2012 20:01 Creegz wrote: I have already tried this a few times without issue today. It seemed to throw a lot of people off in ZvP. I also did it versus Terran to see what happens and it actually wasn't half bad. Didn't face any Zerg today for some reason.
I haven't tried it against a Terran yet, but the thing is that one bunker full of marines/marauders or a seige tank can really put this all-in in a bad position.
Also Tang, do you think there's a way to turn this into just pressure instead of an all-in? I've been trying to figure out how, but every time I do, it doesn't do much at all and the protoss just kills me with a stargate push.
On March 03 2012 20:01 Creegz wrote: I have already tried this a few times without issue today. It seemed to throw a lot of people off in ZvP. I also did it versus Terran to see what happens and it actually wasn't half bad. Didn't face any Zerg today for some reason.
Also Tang, do you think there's a way to turn this into just pressure instead of an all-in? I've been trying to figure out how, but every time I do, it doesn't do much at all and the protoss just kills me with a stargate push.
Yes there is. You don't have to do the hatch cancel, you can use the roaches to pressure the forge/cyber/nexus. For an example of using this early aggression and transitioning into macro, check out game 2 of the leenock/naniwa series:
Normally I try not to all in, but I decided to give this a try after going 0-7 on ladder. Worked like a charm. Hopefully Protoss will stop playing so greedy as attacks like these become more common.
On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote: Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in
this is exactly why zergs should open 14/14 now. Force the protoss on the other side deciding whether or not to spend more on defense then econ/tech. If 6 speedlings can force 1 or 2 more cannons and earlier sentries (later tech for protoss), then 14/14 opening is really worth it. speedling opening is now very viable as it denies most scouting and is very economical if you don't do the all in.
Your post is off. You cannot make 2 overlords at 20 food and a roach warren before 5 minutes. Its either an earlier roach warren or 2 overlords, you cant do both.
On March 04 2012 09:35 kaluro wrote: Your post is off. You cannot make 2 overlords at 20 food and a roach warren before 5 minutes. Its either an earlier roach warren or 2 overlords, you cant do both.
On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote: Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in
this is exactly why zergs should open 14/14 now. Force the protoss on the other side deciding whether or not to spend more on defense then econ/tech. If 6 speedlings can force 1 or 2 more cannons and earlier sentries (later tech for protoss), then 14/14 opening is really worth it. speedling opening is now very viable as it denies most scouting and is very economical if you don't do the all in.
It really isn't. gas on 14/14 with 6 lings compared to a no gas opener with 4 lings will delay your 2nd and 3rd hatch by minutes. You can deny scouting easily without speed and 4 lings - just need to be active and micro well. 150 minerals after a protoss is already mining off 2 base is peanuts compared to the loss of drones in the early game. This builds is as all in as you get. I honestly think a 7pool would be a better opener.
On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote: Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in
this is exactly why zergs should open 14/14 now. Force the protoss on the other side deciding whether or not to spend more on defense then econ/tech. If 6 speedlings can force 1 or 2 more cannons and earlier sentries (later tech for protoss), then 14/14 opening is really worth it. speedling opening is now very viable as it denies most scouting and is very economical if you don't do the all in.
It really isn't. gas on 14/14 with 6 lings compared to a no gas opener with 4 lings will delay your 2nd and 3rd hatch by minutes. You can deny scouting easily without speed and 4 lings - just need to be active and micro well.
I don't think it will delay 2nd/3rd hatch by as much as you think - certainly not minutes. Also, I've seen players like losira and leenock open 14/14 into macro and it works out quite well. Protoss hate being in the dark against zerg, and having speedlings on the field is one way to keep them in the dark. And 4 speedless lings cannot deny scouting, no matter how active you are will them. Probes are too fast!
On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote: Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell?
As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing.
Zerg denies you scouting a gas going down before the SPAWNING POOL STARTS? How is killing your zealot/zealot scout after you FFE relevant to stopping you from seeing a gas down at 14, before pool?
Gas before pool can mean a speedling expand with speedlings used for pylon spotting and probe killing. The key is letting the toss back into your base far enough to see the hatch and killing it right after. Anyone who throws down 3 or 4 cannons in response to a hatch is playing the metagame and could end up far behind if all the zerg did was get speed and pull drones off of gas. The protoss player will be forced to scout again since they saw gas taken...the point of the hatch being there in the first place is to ease their worries and hope that they read it as a speedling expand build.
Why NOT put down an extra cannon or two? you know you are ahead if you FFE against a zerg who puts down a gas, then a pool, then gets speed, all before taking the natural. Even better, with zerg going gas before pool on 14, why not just pylon block the ramp and cannon the zerg in?
On March 05 2012 00:52 pedsky wrote: such an old build. most protoss have adapted to this and this build doesn't win as much. show us the all-ins that you're doing NOW and we'll be happy.
haha what evidence do you have that protoss have adapted to this? I used this to great effect in the first week of season 6.
As a disclaimer I use a different build, abaeit similar (I pull drones off gas after speed and don't cancel my expand because it leaves less tells to the opponent), but still the essentialls are the same: use 6++ roaches to bust their wall, and reinforce with lings.
I used this to reach master league seasons ago (forgot which one), and still use it once in a while in master league. Last season most P's were adapting to this build: they make 2 cannons blindly (since they're blind and you opened 14/14) and move out to scout at a certain time with zealot/s or probes. if they catch your roaches midway they can make mass cannons and stall. if they hold you lose. Simple as that. I'm wondering how you can win in GM with this build in season 6.
However, other P's are such greedy bastards that they just make one cannon without scouting. those are the people who deserve to lose against this build (a hefty 50-60% mind you).
On March 05 2012 01:37 pedsky wrote: As a disclaimer I use a different build, abaeit similar (I pull drones off gas after speed and don't cancel my expand because it leaves less tells to the opponent), but still the essentialls are the same: use 6++ roaches to bust their wall, and reinforce with lings.
I used this to reach master league seasons ago (forgot which one), and still use it once in a while in master league. Last season most P's were adapting to this build: they make 2 cannons blindly (since they're blind and you opened 14/14) and move out to scout at a certain time with zealot/s or probes. if they catch your roaches midway they can make mass cannons and stall. if they hold you lose. Simple as that. I'm wondering how you can win in GM with this build in season 6.
However, other P's are such greedy bastards that they just make one cannon without scouting. those are the people who deserve to lose against this build (a hefty 50-60% mind you).
You can't claim this doesn't work against protoss if you use a different build! This build works because of precise timings and execution that allows you to shut down any probe/zealot scouting. If your execution is optimal, there is nothing the protoss player can do will allow him to scout your roaches or your cancelled expansion - which means either he builds the blind defenses or he dies. If you're doing a 10 roach rush (not 6 like you use) then he needs more than 2-3 cannons, he needs about 4-5 with sentries and chronoboosted gateways.
With proper building placment 10 roaches look like 6, and most maps allow it to look like that, since cannons outrange roaches.
When a probe sees that you mine more than 100 gas he immediately thinks it's some kind of all-in, at least in master league. 14/14 is designed for you to have exactly 100 gas as your pool pops out, and if a probe pokes to see your base while your lings haven't popped out you're a giveaway since you left your 1 drone mining in gas.
and yeah, P's build blind defence (an extra cannon) specificially because of this build, at least in the games that i lose. 2 cannons and a sentry stall enough for the other cannons to finish warping in the back, what usually happens when you lose is that you take down their initial defence but 3-4 cannons finish warping.
but maybe i'll try to build 6 lings just to completely deny scouting (I only make 4), but I doubt it'll change anything.
On March 05 2012 02:11 pedsky wrote: With proper building placment 10 roaches look like 6, and most maps allow it to look like that, since cannons outrange roaches.
No...10 Roaches looks like 10 roaches! lol it's a world of difference, and if the cannons outrange the roaches you can break through the cyber/pylon/forge first without the cannons in range.
On March 04 2012 09:35 kaluro wrote: Your post is off. You cannot make 2 overlords at 20 food and a roach warren before 5 minutes. Its either an earlier roach warren or 2 overlords, you cant do both.
Sure you can, watch the replays.
It is not possible, and there is also no need to keep the drones in until after the roaches start, you will be having 75 to 100 gas left over.
Ideally, you will put them off gas after finishing speed for a little while and only put them on gas afterwards to end up with 250 gas.
EDIT:
The builder order in the OP is this:
14Gas 14Pool 15Overlord 15 Queen/6Lings/Zergling Speed 20 Expansion Hatchery 19 Drone 20 Overlord x2 20 Roach Warren (4:20-4:30) Zergling speed finishes, cancel hatch shortly after. (5:10-5:30) Warren finishes around 5:45, begin 10 Roaches immediately (You should be at 20 out of 42 supply, allowing you to make 10 right away) After roaches, remove from gas and produce 1 overlord. Continuously produce lings rallied to your roaches.
It nowhere states that leenock removes 2 drones from gas after speed started. I was forced to watch the replays just to see that the person making the topic start, has been lazy and etiher missed or forgot to mention that you should remove 2 drones from gas after speed started.
So I was right after all.
Edit 2: So the OP explained it in the random screenshot area but not in the actual build order summary. You might want to add it to the build order. If any, people are just going to be using the build order and create their own flow from there.
Edit 3: You say that you should kill the probe before you put down your expansion. Now the protoss will be blind and will have no idea whether or not you put down an expansion. For as long as protoss does NOT scout an expansion, they will alter their playstyle in such ways that they will be able to repel a one base all in.
You have to make sure he scouts your expansion, or you'll be in trouble.
At your sample game you killed the probe before the pylon died and thus the protoss never scouted your expansion. Why even put down a fake expansion if you are not going to let protoss scout it? Why not save yourself the 75 minerals?
Denying scouting of faking something beats the entire purpose of faking something.
On March 05 2012 01:37 pedsky wrote: As a disclaimer I use a different build, abaeit similar (I pull drones off gas after speed and don't cancel my expand because it leaves less tells to the opponent), but still the essentialls are the same: use 6++ roaches to bust their wall, and reinforce with lings.
I used this to reach master league seasons ago (forgot which one), and still use it once in a while in master league. Last season most P's were adapting to this build: they make 2 cannons blindly (since they're blind and you opened 14/14) and move out to scout at a certain time with zealot/s or probes. if they catch your roaches midway they can make mass cannons and stall. if they hold you lose. Simple as that. I'm wondering how you can win in GM with this build in season 6.
However, other P's are such greedy bastards that they just make one cannon without scouting. those are the people who deserve to lose against this build (a hefty 50-60% mind you).
f your execution is optimal, there is nothing the protoss player can do will allow him to scout your cancelled expansion
You say scout your cancelled expansion, while in your example game you didnt even let him scout your expansion.. We all know what happens when protoss don't see an expansion coming up.
Kalura you're misunderstanding parts of my analysis. First, you can easily get the 2 overlords and roach warren before 5 minutes(usually 4:30-4:40) - I did so in every replay I provided and in the stream tutorials - it cannot be argued otherwise.
There is no way to deny the probe from scouting your expansion hatchery until 5 minutes, and all good protoss will. This is why you must build the hatchery and cancel it. If your slow lings kill his scouting probe before he sees your expansion at 4min, that's fine - there's no reason he'd start preparing for a 1 base all in just because he lost his initial scouting probe.
EDIT: Also, it's rude/uncalled for to state that I'm lazy because I didn't include in the build order that you should be taking 2 drones out of gas after speed is started. I've made the adjustment, and I look forward to reading all the guides you've written
On March 05 2012 03:03 TangSC wrote: There is no way to deny the probe from scouting your expansion hatchery until 5 minutes, and all good protoss will. This is why you must build the hatchery and cancel it. If your slow lings kill his scouting probe before he sees your expansion at 4min, that's fine - there's no reason he'd start preparing for a 1 base all in just because he lost his initial scouting probe.
EDIT: Also, it's rude/uncalled for to state that I'm lazy because I didn't include in the build order that you should be taking 2 drones out of gas after speed is started. I look forward to reading all the guides you've made though
I did this build around 15-20 times over the past 2 days, versus top diamond to mid masters protoss. Often they did scout 14/14 and did not scout any expansion going up, as their initial probe got killed. There were no follow up probes that checked to see if an expansion actually did get up, and if there was - they got picked off by the speedlings.
At times this strategy worked, but that was when they saw the expansion going up. When they did not see the expansion going up, they had 3 cannons and a sentry ready for me.
On March 05 2012 03:03 TangSC wrote: Kalura you're misunderstanding parts of my analysis. First, you can easily get the 2 overlords and roach warren before 5 minutes(usually 4:30-4:40) - I did so in every replay I provided and in the stream tutorials - it cannot be argued otherwise.
Not if you follow the build order summary you posted, as it implies 3 drones should be left in gas till the 10 roaches are being made.
Okay so you made the changes, awesome. Maybe a solid number would be more accurate though. Like after you start speed, take two off gas and at X amount of gas, put them back in. Makes it easier to maintain accuracy.
On March 05 2012 03:03 TangSC wrote: There is no way to deny the probe from scouting your expansion hatchery until 5 minutes, and all good protoss will. This is why you must build the hatchery and cancel it. If your slow lings kill his scouting probe before he sees your expansion at 4min, that's fine - there's no reason he'd start preparing for a 1 base all in just because he lost his initial scouting probe.
EDIT: Also, it's rude/uncalled for to state that I'm lazy because I didn't include in the build order that you should be taking 2 drones out of gas after speed is started. I look forward to reading all the guides you've made though
I did this build around 15-20 times over the past 2 days, versus top diamond to mid masters protoss. Often they did scout 14/14 and did not scout any expansion going up, as their initial probe got killed. There were no follow up probes that checked to see if an expansion actually did get up, and if there was - they got picked off by the speedlings.
At times this strategy worked, but that was when they saw the expansion going up. When they did not see the expansion going up, they had 3 cannons and a sentry ready for me.
On March 05 2012 03:03 TangSC wrote: Kalura you're misunderstanding parts of my analysis. First, you can easily get the 2 overlords and roach warren before 5 minutes(usually 4:30-4:40) - I did so in every replay I provided and in the stream tutorials - it cannot be argued otherwise.
Okay so you made the changes, awesome. Maybe a solid number would be more accurate though. Like after you start speed, take two off gas and at X amount of gas, put them back in. Makes it easier to maintain accuracy.
No it's really better just to refill as soon as the probe is no longer in your main and there's no longer a chance he can scout your gas timing. You can do 11 roaches if you have the gas, the more the better. It just usually works out to 10.
On March 02 2012 07:35 Sated wrote: Stuff like this is why I 3gate Sentry/1gate expand
Nothing personal, but I'm getting tired of such comments.
"This is why I 3 gate expand." "This is why I 9 pylon scout." "This is why I always open with speedlings."
This is also why you lose many of your standard games bro. Going for the safest build possible deters cheese, but you lose out tremendously if you opponent chooses to play standard. Besides, there is a reason why most pro Protosses forge FE.
This isn't as hard to scout as people think. Sure, I won't be able to see the Hatch cancel or the Roach warren or stuff like that, but you have to know that there are other indicators that experienced P players will look for.
These are the things you aren't hiding that will definitely set off alarm bells in a P player's head. - You went gas first on a map where FFE is absolutely standard. - You continue to mine gas with 1 drone even after 100 gas have been mined and after you scouted my FFE. - You made 6 lings instead of 4 (this isn't that big a deal, but it's still something I'd notice). - You are very diligently denying scouting (again doesn't equal cheese, but I'd have further reason to suspect cheese).
The first 2 points above are absolutely MAJOR indicators for experienced P players (> mid-Masters). There is little reason why you would go for the LEAST economic opening possible on a FFE map. Heck, even if you 6, 8, or 10 pool, it makes more sense than gas first on a FFE map. And there is even less reason why you would mine extra gas after 100. When I see this I will get Stargate immediately after Core is done, throw up an extra cannon (maybe even 2), and patrol probes around my main to watch for Nyduses. If my first Force Field is well put, I have a very good chance of holding. With 3 cannons it should be absolutely no problem. Some crisis management will be needed if I have only 2 cannons (e.g. need to build additional buildings near Nexus). And once the VR is out it's easily held. Make Stargate above the ramp obviously.
Edit: I'd like to say I haven't watched the replays, but I've stopped this on the Ladder a few times before (NA Masters). I don't mean to put you down or say that this build sucks. It's of course good to have it in your arsenal. Heck, it's always good to have some all-ins in your arsenal. Your guide is well written. I didn't even have to look at the BO. Your pictures were good enough for me to understand the entire build and that's something that makes this guide better than most others. The only thing I feel is that it really isn't as hard to scout as you make it seem to be.
On March 05 2012 04:10 cassurai wrote: This is the simple counter to this.
This isn't as hard to scout as people think. Sure, I won't be able to see the Hatch cancel or the Roach warren or stuff like that, but you have to know that there are other indicators that experienced P players will look for.
These are the things you aren't hiding that will definitely set off alarm bells in a P player's head. - You went gas first on a map where FFE is absolutely standard. - You continue to mine gas with 1 drone even after 100 gas have been mined and after you scouted my FFE. - You made 6 lings instead of 4 (this isn't that big a deal, but it's still something I'd notice). - You are very diligently denying scouting (again doesn't equal cheese, but I'd have further reason to suspect cheese).
The first 2 points above are absolutely MAJOR indicators for experienced P players (> mid-Masters). There is little reason why you would go for the LEAST economic opening possible on a FFE map. Heck, even if you 6, 8, or 10 pool, it makes more sense than gas first on a FFE map. And there is even less reason why you would mine extra gas after 100. When I see this I will get Stargate immediately after Core is done, throw up an extra cannon (maybe even 2), and patrol probes around my main to watch for Nyduses. If my first Force Field is well put, I have a very good chance of holding. With 3 cannons it should be absolutely no problem. Some crisis management will be needed if I have only 2 cannons (e.g. need to build additional buildings near Nexus). And once the VR is out it's easily held. Make Stargate above the ramp obviously.
Edit: I'd like to say I haven't watched the replays, but I've stopped this on the Ladder a few times before (NA Masters). I don't mean to put you down or say that this build sucks. It's of course good to have it in your arsenal. Heck, it's always good to have some all-ins in your arsenal. Your guide is well written. I didn't even have to look at the BO. Your pictures were good enough for me to understand the entire build and that's something that makes this guide better than most others. The only thing I feel is that it really isn't as hard to scout as you make it seem to be.
Good advice in terms of gas scouting and Stargate. I think the way you look at it is the way most protoss players should look at it, but that doesn't mean they do. Also zerg players can have multiple builds that look the same. For example in ZvP, I use 3 builds that open gas first and still single-mine gas until I chase away the probe.
On March 02 2012 07:43 Flonomenalz wrote: Using this every ZvP.
I hate late game t.t
edit: Can you make a thread like this for Zenio's 3 hatch baneling bust against FFE? There's some VODs of it from the latest Homestory Cup.
If you can provide links I'll check it out and experiment with the style
He did it against Naniwa at IEM Kiev, and from what the casters said, it seemed like he had done it multiple times in the group stage as well. He did it against Sase in the FXOpen Invite #5, except he didn't even need to morph any banelings (had the nest and the gas) and just ripped the wall down with zerglings because Sase was completely unprepared.
He goes 14/14 (maybe - one of the games he only took gas after his expo was blocked), double expands, but stops at about 24 drones and one queen. The 3rd base is basically a macro hatch. He lets the protoss see the 3rd, but denies any scouting of the gas in his main, and then he baneling busts. You can do a similar build with roach ling, but the 3 hatch method lends itself better to banelings. If you do it with a gasless expand you can hit even harder, but it is more difficult to keep a probe out of your main base with only slow lings and a queen when you are first taking the gas. Either way, you want him to scout the 3rd base.
He also did it to Nightend at IEM Kiev on Antiga, but Nightend had a hole in his wall and no sentry... so I'm not sure if that game should count or not.
On March 05 2012 04:10 cassurai wrote: This is the simple counter to this.
This isn't as hard to scout as people think. Sure, I won't be able to see the Hatch cancel or the Roach warren or stuff like that, but you have to know that there are other indicators that experienced P players will look for.
These are the things you aren't hiding that will definitely set off alarm bells in a P player's head. - You went gas first on a map where FFE is absolutely standard. - You continue to mine gas with 1 drone even after 100 gas have been mined and after you scouted my FFE. - You made 6 lings instead of 4 (this isn't that big a deal, but it's still something I'd notice). - You are very diligently denying scouting (again doesn't equal cheese, but I'd have further reason to suspect cheese).
The first 2 points above are absolutely MAJOR indicators for experienced P players (> mid-Masters). There is little reason why you would go for the LEAST economic opening possible on a FFE map. Heck, even if you 6, 8, or 10 pool, it makes more sense than gas first on a FFE map. And there is even less reason why you would mine extra gas after 100. When I see this I will get Stargate immediately after Core is done, throw up an extra cannon (maybe even 2), and patrol probes around my main to watch for Nyduses. If my first Force Field is well put, I have a very good chance of holding. With 3 cannons it should be absolutely no problem. Some crisis management will be needed if I have only 2 cannons (e.g. need to build additional buildings near Nexus). And once the VR is out it's easily held. Make Stargate above the ramp obviously.
Edit: I'd like to say I haven't watched the replays, but I've stopped this on the Ladder a few times before (NA Masters). I don't mean to put you down or say that this build sucks. It's of course good to have it in your arsenal. Heck, it's always good to have some all-ins in your arsenal. Your guide is well written. I didn't even have to look at the BO. Your pictures were good enough for me to understand the entire build and that's something that makes this guide better than most others. The only thing I feel is that it really isn't as hard to scout as you make it seem to be.
Good advice in terms of gas scouting and Stargate. I think the way you look at it is the way most protoss players should look at it, but that doesn't mean they do. Also zerg players can have multiple builds that look the same. For example in ZvP, I use 3 builds that open gas first and still single-mine gas until I chase away the probe.
I don't think there is any economic build that goes gas first, mine 100 gas (I can click on extractor to check), and continue to single-mine gas. If you decide NOT to all-in after doing this, my extra cannon and Stargate will STILL put me way ahead. It's not like you're gaining anything by "pretending" to cheese here.
Basically, on a FFE map, if I scout a speedling opening, I will get the extra cannon and open Stargate regardless of whether you choose to all-in or not. I believe I am still ahead even if you choose not to cheese in the end. The Stargate isn't useless anyway. It can be used to harass and force Spores.
On March 05 2012 04:10 cassurai wrote: This is the simple counter to this.
This isn't as hard to scout as people think. Sure, I won't be able to see the Hatch cancel or the Roach warren or stuff like that, but you have to know that there are other indicators that experienced P players will look for.
These are the things you aren't hiding that will definitely set off alarm bells in a P player's head. - You went gas first on a map where FFE is absolutely standard. - You continue to mine gas with 1 drone even after 100 gas have been mined and after you scouted my FFE. - You made 6 lings instead of 4 (this isn't that big a deal, but it's still something I'd notice). - You are very diligently denying scouting (again doesn't equal cheese, but I'd have further reason to suspect cheese).
The first 2 points above are absolutely MAJOR indicators for experienced P players (> mid-Masters). There is little reason why you would go for the LEAST economic opening possible on a FFE map. Heck, even if you 6, 8, or 10 pool, it makes more sense than gas first on a FFE map. And there is even less reason why you would mine extra gas after 100. When I see this I will get Stargate immediately after Core is done, throw up an extra cannon (maybe even 2), and patrol probes around my main to watch for Nyduses. If my first Force Field is well put, I have a very good chance of holding. With 3 cannons it should be absolutely no problem. Some crisis management will be needed if I have only 2 cannons (e.g. need to build additional buildings near Nexus). And once the VR is out it's easily held. Make Stargate above the ramp obviously.
Edit: I'd like to say I haven't watched the replays, but I've stopped this on the Ladder a few times before (NA Masters). I don't mean to put you down or say that this build sucks. It's of course good to have it in your arsenal. Heck, it's always good to have some all-ins in your arsenal. Your guide is well written. I didn't even have to look at the BO. Your pictures were good enough for me to understand the entire build and that's something that makes this guide better than most others. The only thing I feel is that it really isn't as hard to scout as you make it seem to be.
Good advice in terms of gas scouting and Stargate. I think the way you look at it is the way most protoss players should look at it, but that doesn't mean they do. Also zerg players can have multiple builds that look the same. For example in ZvP, I use 3 builds that open gas first and still single-mine gas until I chase away the probe.
I don't think there is any economic build that goes gas first, mine 100 gas (I can click on extractor to check), and continue to single-mine gas. If you decide NOT to all-in after doing this, my extra cannon and Stargate will STILL put me way ahead. It's not like you're gaining anything by "pretending" to cheese here.
Well what I mean is you could get speed, leave one in gas only to take it out once the probe is gone. Then you basically do all the other steps of standard macro - fast 3rd, double gas around ~6:00, ~7:00 evo/warren. Also, what if I were to tell you that I have an all-in build designed specifically for stargate openings that opens gas/pool? *Maniacal laugh*
On March 05 2012 04:10 cassurai wrote: This is the simple counter to this.
This isn't as hard to scout as people think. Sure, I won't be able to see the Hatch cancel or the Roach warren or stuff like that, but you have to know that there are other indicators that experienced P players will look for.
These are the things you aren't hiding that will definitely set off alarm bells in a P player's head. - You went gas first on a map where FFE is absolutely standard. - You continue to mine gas with 1 drone even after 100 gas have been mined and after you scouted my FFE. - You made 6 lings instead of 4 (this isn't that big a deal, but it's still something I'd notice). - You are very diligently denying scouting (again doesn't equal cheese, but I'd have further reason to suspect cheese).
The first 2 points above are absolutely MAJOR indicators for experienced P players (> mid-Masters). There is little reason why you would go for the LEAST economic opening possible on a FFE map. Heck, even if you 6, 8, or 10 pool, it makes more sense than gas first on a FFE map. And there is even less reason why you would mine extra gas after 100. When I see this I will get Stargate immediately after Core is done, throw up an extra cannon (maybe even 2), and patrol probes around my main to watch for Nyduses. If my first Force Field is well put, I have a very good chance of holding. With 3 cannons it should be absolutely no problem. Some crisis management will be needed if I have only 2 cannons (e.g. need to build additional buildings near Nexus). And once the VR is out it's easily held. Make Stargate above the ramp obviously.
Edit: I'd like to say I haven't watched the replays, but I've stopped this on the Ladder a few times before (NA Masters). I don't mean to put you down or say that this build sucks. It's of course good to have it in your arsenal. Heck, it's always good to have some all-ins in your arsenal. Your guide is well written. I didn't even have to look at the BO. Your pictures were good enough for me to understand the entire build and that's something that makes this guide better than most others. The only thing I feel is that it really isn't as hard to scout as you make it seem to be.
Good advice in terms of gas scouting and Stargate. I think the way you look at it is the way most protoss players should look at it, but that doesn't mean they do. Also zerg players can have multiple builds that look the same. For example in ZvP, I use 3 builds that open gas first and still single-mine gas until I chase away the probe.
I don't think there is any economic build that goes gas first, mine 100 gas (I can click on extractor to check), and continue to single-mine gas. If you decide NOT to all-in after doing this, my extra cannon and Stargate will STILL put me way ahead. It's not like you're gaining anything by "pretending" to cheese here.
Well what I mean is you could get speed, leave one in gas only to take it out once the probe is gone. Then you basically do all the other steps of standard macro - fast 3rd, double gas around ~6:00, ~7:00 evo/warren. Also, what if I were to tell you that I have an all-in build designed specifically for stargate openings that opens gas/pool? *Maniacal laugh*
Haha. That is good. I assume it involves a ton of Speedlings and Banelings. Stargate is pretty bad versus that.
One thing I'd do for sure though, is if I see a gas/pool opening on Shakuras or some other FFE map, I'd get Stargate + 1 sentry. I might even cut probe production for 5-10 seconds to make 3 cannons. This should stop almost all all-ins you have in your book.
As I mentioned, even with me doing all that (wasting money on extra cannons and such), I am ahead economically should you then decide not to cheese and do all the other steps of standard macro. Your 3rd and your queens will be nowhere as fast since you opened gas/pool etc etc.
In the end, you are basically trading your economy for either an all-in or a fake all-in. It's somewhat like faking a 4 gate in PvP, where I save my chronoboost for Core, don't get 2nd gas till your scouting probe dies, don't build my 3rd Pylon in base, etc.
It makes you suspect 4 gate and be cautious. You lose some economy by playing defensive, but I lose even more economy just playing this mind game.
I might also just 4 gate anyway, in which case it'd be stopped because you suspect it.
In the end the benefits of doing this is not good at all, which is why every pro just gets early 2nd gas in PvP these days and doesn't mind you scouting it. Same with this case. Pros just don't get gas first ZvP on FFE maps etc.
But like I said good to have more builds in your repertoire.
For an all-in, I prefer the 2Base 6Roach + Speedlings from July. Which arrives around min 6.30 to enemy's door. That's for FFE, in the case they just opened Gate something (gate/expand, 3gate expand, 2gate expand, 3gate robo, 4 gates, etc. ) a simple 3RR will do the work.
On March 05 2012 23:54 cassurai wrote: In the end, you are basically trading your economy for either an all-in or a fake all-in. It's somewhat like faking a 4 gate in PvP, where I save my chronoboost for Core, don't get 2nd gas till your scouting probe dies, don't build my 3rd Pylon in base, etc.
Well you have to remember getting zergling speed early doesn't hurt you much, you end up getting speed for your lings with 90% of builds regardless.
On March 05 2012 23:54 cassurai wrote: In the end, you are basically trading your economy for either an all-in or a fake all-in. It's somewhat like faking a 4 gate in PvP, where I save my chronoboost for Core, don't get 2nd gas till your scouting probe dies, don't build my 3rd Pylon in base, etc.
Well you have to remember getting zergling speed early doesn't hurt you much, you end up getting speed for your lings with 90% of builds regardless.
How can it not hurt you much? I don't know exactly the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that delaying gas for Zerg gives you a huge boost in overall economy. By going gas first you're giving that up. It's 4 drones (3 to mine, 1 to make extractor) not mining minerals for a minute or two. When you only have 14 drones total, that is extremely significant. You need minerals for queens, hatcheries and more drones. Getting all of these as early as possible is economically better. The argument that "I'm going to get speed eventually anyway" is quite flawed I'm afraid.
On March 05 2012 23:54 cassurai wrote: In the end, you are basically trading your economy for either an all-in or a fake all-in. It's somewhat like faking a 4 gate in PvP, where I save my chronoboost for Core, don't get 2nd gas till your scouting probe dies, don't build my 3rd Pylon in base, etc.
Well you have to remember getting zergling speed early doesn't hurt you much, you end up getting speed for your lings with 90% of builds regardless.
How can it not hurt you much? I don't know exactly the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that delaying gas for Zerg gives you a huge boost in overall economy. By going gas first you're giving that up. It's 4 drones (3 to mine, 1 to make extractor) not mining minerals for a minute or two. When you only have 14 drones total, that is extremely significant. You need minerals for queens, hatcheries and more drones. Getting all of these as early as possible is economically better. The argument that "I'm going to get speed eventually anyway" is quite flawed I'm afraid.
I think there are other benefits to opening with zergling speed that you overlook. 1) You can deny scouting that you even took a 3rd base, something you cannot do if you skip speed. (Probes are very quick) 2) Your opponent, upon scouting zergling speed and been denied scouting of your 3rd base, may produce additional defenses and/or incorrectly go stargate/chronoboosted sentries. 3) Those 1gate openings like 1zealot 1stalker or 2zealot can be more cost-efficiently dealt with if you open with zergling speed. 4) Any 2gate openings are much easier to defend with speed. Some players 2Gate at their natural and expand on maps like tal'darim and shakuras, it can be a bit annoying if you neglect speed.
It's not always the question of "which opening is more economically optimal". This is why many pros like Stephano mix between opening with 11overpool 6ling aggression, early speed, and gasless fast 3rd.
On March 02 2012 07:43 Flonomenalz wrote: Using this every ZvP.
I hate late game t.t
edit: Can you make a thread like this for Zenio's 3 hatch baneling bust against FFE? There's some VODs of it from the latest Homestory Cup.
If you can provide links I'll check it out and experiment with the style
He did it against Naniwa at IEM Kiev, and from what the casters said, it seemed like he had done it multiple times in the group stage as well. He did it against Sase in the FXOpen Invite #5, except he didn't even need to morph any banelings (had the nest and the gas) and just ripped the wall down with zerglings because Sase was completely unprepared.
He goes 14/14 (maybe - one of the games he only took gas after his expo was blocked), double expands, but stops at about 24 drones and one queen. The 3rd base is basically a macro hatch. He lets the protoss see the 3rd, but denies any scouting of the gas in his main, and then he baneling busts. You can do a similar build with roach ling, but the 3 hatch method lends itself better to banelings. If you do it with a gasless expand you can hit even harder, but it is more difficult to keep a probe out of your main base with only slow lings and a queen when you are first taking the gas. Either way, you want him to scout the 3rd base.
He also did it to Nightend at IEM Kiev on Antiga, but Nightend had a hole in his wall and no sentry... so I'm not sure if that game should count or not.
9 OL 14 Pool 15 OL 16 2 lings 17 Queen 19 2 lings 20 gas-3 drones when done. He doesn't take any off after speed is done. 21 Hatch 21 OL 26 Ling speed 26 Hatch 27 Baneling Nest 27 Start making nothing but lings 29 OL
Queen Pukes then makes a tumor and heads to the expo. Nothing but pukes after that.
On March 02 2012 07:43 Flonomenalz wrote: Using this every ZvP.
I hate late game t.t
edit: Can you make a thread like this for Zenio's 3 hatch baneling bust against FFE? There's some VODs of it from the latest Homestory Cup.
If you can provide links I'll check it out and experiment with the style
He did it against Naniwa at IEM Kiev, and from what the casters said, it seemed like he had done it multiple times in the group stage as well. He did it against Sase in the FXOpen Invite #5, except he didn't even need to morph any banelings (had the nest and the gas) and just ripped the wall down with zerglings because Sase was completely unprepared.
He goes 14/14 (maybe - one of the games he only took gas after his expo was blocked), double expands, but stops at about 24 drones and one queen. The 3rd base is basically a macro hatch. He lets the protoss see the 3rd, but denies any scouting of the gas in his main, and then he baneling busts. You can do a similar build with roach ling, but the 3 hatch method lends itself better to banelings. If you do it with a gasless expand you can hit even harder, but it is more difficult to keep a probe out of your main base with only slow lings and a queen when you are first taking the gas. Either way, you want him to scout the 3rd base.
He also did it to Nightend at IEM Kiev on Antiga, but Nightend had a hole in his wall and no sentry... so I'm not sure if that game should count or not.
9 OL 14 Pool 15 OL 16 2 lings 17 Queen 19 2 lings 20 gas-3 drones when done. He doesn't take any off after speed is done. 21 Hatch 21 OL 26 Ling speed 26 Hatch 27 Baneling Nest 27 Start making nothing but lings 29 OL
Queen Pukes then makes a tumor and heads to the expo. Nothing but pukes after that.
Thanks, I looked over the replays. I'll need time to use the build before I feel comfortable writing a guide on it. Wouldn't mind links to JulyZerg's 6Roach / Speedling rush against FFE too.
I'm only gold but this feels a much more powerfull push then the 5-7 roach rush once ffe has been scouted. the 20/42 supply limit to watch for seems more natural - 20 supply & one queen and 4-6 lings - boom, get 2 overlords and just sit and inject while denying scouting. Reinforcing with a suitable roach/ling mixture depending on what is scouted is nice too.
I love these TangSc All in Zerg builds. Glad that someone spent the time iron out the details and lays out for me so nice and easy. Thanks TangSc, you make my ZvX more bearable with all-ins when I get frustrated with defending.
On March 07 2012 03:46 TangSC wrote:Wouldn't mind links to JulyZerg's 6Roach / Speedling rush against FFE too.
July played a match on entombed about a month or two ago using that build. It's basically just a speedling expand where you cut drones after the expansion (~20), then make a roach warren and pull off gas after you have 150 (plus the 100 you mined for speed). It's incredibly simple and transitions better than the earlier builds, while hitting faster than the old school style Losira and others used almost a year ago. It unfortunately suffers from being slow enough that they can defend it with Void Rays and they can see it coming due to the need for an early gas. I have seen a hatch first variation (I think Terious did it against Huk on bel'shir beach) that utilizes a proxy hatch (15 hatch no less) for the roaches, though that likely throws even more alarm bells in a protoss who knows pool/gas timings. I've had it work mostly when I sent an early drone to proxy, then faked a 15 hatch at my natural and let them deny it while I made my pool/gas in the main, which can really throw off some players.
I absolutely love this. I've been looking for a good all-in against toss to keep them honest and I remember Leenock having such success with this. I feel like bling bust is really weak against ffe, so I'm definitely going to start incorporating this now.
On March 07 2012 03:46 TangSC wrote:Wouldn't mind links to JulyZerg's 6Roach / Speedling rush against FFE too.
July played a match on entombed about a month or two ago using that build. It's basically just a speedling expand where you cut drones after the expansion (~20), then make a roach warren and pull off gas after you have 150 (plus the 100 you mined for speed). It's incredibly simple and transitions better than the earlier builds, while hitting faster than the old school style Losira and others used almost a year ago. It unfortunately suffers from being slow enough that they can defend it with Void Rays and they can see it coming due to the need for an early gas. I have seen a hatch first variation (I think Terious did it against Huk on bel'shir beach) that utilizes a proxy hatch (15 hatch no less) for the roaches, though that likely throws even more alarm bells in a protoss who knows pool/gas timings. I've had it work mostly when I sent an early drone to proxy, then faked a 15 hatch at my natural and let them deny it while I made my pool/gas in the main, which can really throw off some players.
That's exactly what I was thinking - The beauty of Leenock's build is stargate openings won't get a Vray out in time, I feel like any later openings can be shut down by air. Haha you fake a hatch first, then proxy hatch all-in? I'd have to see it in action but I like the idea.
I was using a non-hatch cancel of this build (8 roaches, 20 sling @ 7:10) back in Season 4 with a 90-95% winrate in high masters.
That said, I feel the defense is too well-defined for this build to continue and consistently take games at a high level.
Some major tells :
- Gas first / gas mined at all. There is no legitimate reason to take such a significant economic cut unless you intend to all-in or desperately need to deny information about tech. - The absence of a 3rd between 4:30-6:00. A Zerg who isn't taking a fast third against FFE is planning on winning the game in a non-conventional manner. That means tech or an allin. - Denied scouts. This should send alarm bells off in the Protoss head, especially if probe+zealot or 2 zealot scouts (which the Protoss should be sending against gas-first openings) are denied. Having more than 4 speedlings out on the map, and certainly more than 6, is a huge investment that you would not and cannot make unless you plan on allin'ing.
I think the answer to this is simple. Scout gas-first or early gas openers and prepare accordingly. It is possible to deny a 2-zealot scout with speedlings, but doing so should be, in its own way, a huge tell. Throw down 2-3 extra cannons, have a sentry or two out, and hold with good FFs.
On March 07 2012 03:46 TangSC wrote:Wouldn't mind links to JulyZerg's 6Roach / Speedling rush against FFE too.
July played a match on entombed about a month or two ago using that build. It's basically just a speedling expand where you cut drones after the expansion (~20), then make a roach warren and pull off gas after you have 150 (plus the 100 you mined for speed). It's incredibly simple and transitions better than the earlier builds, while hitting faster than the old school style Losira and others used almost a year ago. It unfortunately suffers from being slow enough that they can defend it with Void Rays and they can see it coming due to the need for an early gas. I have seen a hatch first variation (I think Terious did it against Huk on bel'shir beach) that utilizes a proxy hatch (15 hatch no less) for the roaches, though that likely throws even more alarm bells in a protoss who knows pool/gas timings. I've had it work mostly when I sent an early drone to proxy, then faked a 15 hatch at my natural and let them deny it while I made my pool/gas in the main, which can really throw off some players.
That's exactly what I was thinking - The beauty of Leenock's build is stargate openings won't get a Vray out in time, I feel like any later openings can be shut down by air. Haha you fake a hatch first, then proxy hatch all-in? I'd have to see it in action but I like the idea.
On March 07 2012 03:46 TangSC wrote:Wouldn't mind links to JulyZerg's 6Roach / Speedling rush against FFE too.
July played a match on entombed about a month or two ago using that build. It's basically just a speedling expand where you cut drones after the expansion (~20), then make a roach warren and pull off gas after you have 150 (plus the 100 you mined for speed). It's incredibly simple and transitions better than the earlier builds, while hitting faster than the old school style Losira and others used almost a year ago. It unfortunately suffers from being slow enough that they can defend it with Void Rays and they can see it coming due to the need for an early gas. I have seen a hatch first variation (I think Terious did it against Huk on bel'shir beach) that utilizes a proxy hatch (15 hatch no less) for the roaches, though that likely throws even more alarm bells in a protoss who knows pool/gas timings. I've had it work mostly when I sent an early drone to proxy, then faked a 15 hatch at my natural and let them deny it while I made my pool/gas in the main, which can really throw off some players.
That's exactly what I was thinking - The beauty of Leenock's build is stargate openings won't get a Vray out in time, I feel like any later openings can be shut down by air. Haha you fake a hatch first, then proxy hatch all-in? I'd have to see it in action but I like the idea.
On March 05 2012 04:10 cassurai wrote: This is the simple counter to this.
This isn't as hard to scout as people think. Sure, I won't be able to see the Hatch cancel or the Roach warren or stuff like that, but you have to know that there are other indicators that experienced P players will look for.
These are the things you aren't hiding that will definitely set off alarm bells in a P player's head. - You went gas first on a map where FFE is absolutely standard. - You continue to mine gas with 1 drone even after 100 gas have been mined and after you scouted my FFE. - You made 6 lings instead of 4 (this isn't that big a deal, but it's still something I'd notice). - You are very diligently denying scouting (again doesn't equal cheese, but I'd have further reason to suspect cheese).
The first 2 points above are absolutely MAJOR indicators for experienced P players (> mid-Masters). There is little reason why you would go for the LEAST economic opening possible on a FFE map. Heck, even if you 6, 8, or 10 pool, it makes more sense than gas first on a FFE map. And there is even less reason why you would mine extra gas after 100. When I see this I will get Stargate immediately after Core is done, throw up an extra cannon (maybe even 2), and patrol probes around my main to watch for Nyduses. If my first Force Field is well put, I have a very good chance of holding. With 3 cannons it should be absolutely no problem. Some crisis management will be needed if I have only 2 cannons (e.g. need to build additional buildings near Nexus). And once the VR is out it's easily held. Make Stargate above the ramp obviously.
Edit: I'd like to say I haven't watched the replays, but I've stopped this on the Ladder a few times before (NA Masters). I don't mean to put you down or say that this build sucks. It's of course good to have it in your arsenal. Heck, it's always good to have some all-ins in your arsenal. Your guide is well written. I didn't even have to look at the BO. Your pictures were good enough for me to understand the entire build and that's something that makes this guide better than most others. The only thing I feel is that it really isn't as hard to scout as you make it seem to be.
Good advice in terms of gas scouting and Stargate. I think the way you look at it is the way most protoss players should look at it, but that doesn't mean they do. Also zerg players can have multiple builds that look the same. For example in ZvP, I use 3 builds that open gas first and still single-mine gas until I chase away the probe.
I don't think there is any economic build that goes gas first, mine 100 gas (I can click on extractor to check), and continue to single-mine gas. If you decide NOT to all-in after doing this, my extra cannon and Stargate will STILL put me way ahead. It's not like you're gaining anything by "pretending" to cheese here.
There are a few overlord drop builds that continue mining gas, and stargate openings aren't the greatest against this style because you need zealots to kill the lings fast enough.
EDIT: I'm also pretty sure you could just get speed and start droning afterwards and be even if protoss incorrectly goes for extra cannons and/or stargate.
On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote: Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in
I mined 200gas to trick opponent, took speed to deny any scout, made 6lings and maxed 200/200 roaches 12:44. 600minerals to defend something that isn't coming is pretty commitment and youll also delay your antidrone attack so much too.
On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote: Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in
I mined 200gas to trick opponent, took speed to deny any scout, made 6lings and maxed 200/200 roaches 12:44. 600minerals to defend something that isn't coming is pretty commitment and youll also delay your antidrone attack so much too.
200 gas is about 100 seconds of mining time for 3 drones, or 1.66 minutes. 4 drones (since you'd have no extractor with standard play) mine about 42*1.66*4 = 280ish minerals, call it 300 with building the extractor. Plus that extra drone would be mining for about 4 minutes more if you take gas at 6 minutes instead of 2 (I think 1:40 is the actual 14/14 timing), that's another 160ish. So you lose at least 450 minerals compared to standard play.
So, even if the toss makes 3 extra cannons, you about break even in terms of money. Plus, your investment comes earlier, since the cannons are a reaction to you mining extra gas, so it hurts you more. Not to mention that you make 6 lings instead of the extra four, but that's really just stylistic.
The question is - is that map control worth it? I would say no, unless you want to all-in.
You can disagree, but you can't say that it's gonna put you ahead - are there any P's that make 5 cannons (you quoted 600 extra minerals) in response to seeing extra gas mined, with no RW?
On April 05 2012 12:31 qwertyindeed wrote: snute did some ling and blings drops off 2 bases, do you know of any drops builds with 2 bases?, like a drop jsut around warp gate timing
On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote: Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in
I mined 200gas to trick opponent, took speed to deny any scout, made 6lings and maxed 200/200 roaches 12:44. 600minerals to defend something that isn't coming is pretty commitment and youll also delay your antidrone attack so much too.
200 gas is about 100 seconds of mining time for 3 drones, or 1.66 minutes. 4 drones (since you'd have no extractor with standard play) mine about 42*1.66*4 = 280ish minerals, call it 300 with building the extractor. Plus that extra drone would be mining for about 4 minutes more if you take gas at 6 minutes instead of 2 (I think 1:40 is the actual 14/14 timing), that's another 160ish. So you lose at least 450 minerals compared to standard play.
So, even if the toss makes 3 extra cannons, you about break even in terms of money. Plus, your investment comes earlier, since the cannons are a reaction to you mining extra gas, so it hurts you more. Not to mention that you make 6 lings instead of the extra four, but that's really just stylistic.
The question is - is that map control worth it? I would say no, unless you want to all-in.
You can disagree, but you can't say that it's gonna put you ahead - are there any P's that make 5 cannons (you quoted 600 extra minerals) in response to seeing extra gas mined, with no RW?
Edit - 5 cannons meaning the normal 1+4 extra.
Actually I think the value of having speed in the early game is much bigger than "map control". Protoss hate being kept in the dark, and early speedlings ensures he can't even scout whether you take a 3rd base.
Tang, should you pull off gas after you have enough gas to make 10 roaches, which is 250 gas i believe. in your images you're floating a bunch of gas you really don't need. and if no what's the purpose of keep the gas?
On April 15 2012 07:15 Mario1209 wrote: Tang, should you pull off gas after you have enough gas to make 10 roaches, which is 250 gas i believe. in your images you're floating a bunch of gas you really don't need. and if no what's the purpose of keep the gas?
You're definitely right, you should pull out of gas at 250, though the extra 3 drones mining won't really increase the effectiveness of your all-in. I usually do remove from gas, but I prioritize ensuring my roaches make it to his base without being detected by a probe or zealots (Active speedlings)
I could vomit every time I see a Protoss since I know a 2 base all-in or pylon block cheese is comming. Time to bring the hurt back and induce a bit of rage in my enemies. Thanks for sharing!
On April 14 2012 04:10 Zealos wrote: I use this in every vP now. I don't like doing it, but it sure is working.
Should mix in a few macro styles too, at least Stephano's 4 Hatch Roach/Ling.
I just get sad trying, they mass up immortals and stalkers off 2 base and a move me every game. I know it isn't imbalance, but I am just so terrible at the matchup even if I get a huge lead (Holding off a massive cannon rush with no losses ect) I'll lose in the end, so I just use this instead
On April 14 2012 04:10 Zealos wrote: I use this in every vP now. I don't like doing it, but it sure is working.
Should mix in a few macro styles too, at least Stephano's 4 Hatch Roach/Ling.
I just get sad trying, they mass up immortals and stalkers off 2 base and a move me every game. I know it isn't imbalance, but I am just so terrible at the matchup even if I get a huge lead (Holding off a massive cannon rush with no losses ect) I'll lose in the end, so I just use this instead
Haha if you're happy, I'm happy! I used to struggle in ZvP macro too, in fact for seasons 2-3 I literally did JulyZerg's 1base baneling bust 90% of games against FFE. But I'm finding 3-4 hatch roach/ling to be a pretty deadly way of playing a macro style against Toss.
On April 17 2012 08:52 Recty wrote: I'm sorry if I missed it, but to follow this build perfectly, how many drones do you have when you cut all drone production?
On April 21 2012 22:38 reqmoreminerals wrote: That was uncalled for.
But to be honest. This build doesnt sit well with me. I find almost all roach rushes a coin toss.
A cannon or a bunker will cost you the game,
Well it is a bit of a cointoss, but odds are in your favour if you execute the attack properly and deny scouting. They need quite a few cannons to defend this.
I dunno why but your guide's always seem to be about easy allin's that the common diamond league player could just learn from watching 1 vod of in this case naniwa vs leenock. For a 'grandmaster' player, your strategies lack depth imo. Especially since you explain this with so much details (i'm baffled you can write this much about a 7minute game/opening) which makes us believe that you are writing this down for lower league players (because 90% of your details are trivial to diamonds/masters), while this is a strategy designed to punish greedy toss-openings (aka higher tier protosses). So this whole guide doesn't make too much sence. Perhaps you're focusing more on making cheap selfpromotion?
On April 26 2012 03:53 SolidSMD wrote: I dunno why but your guide's always seem to be about easy allin's that the common diamond league player could just learn from watching 1 vod of in this case naniwa vs leenock. For a 'grandmaster' player, your strategies lack depth imo. Especially since you explain this with so much details (i'm baffled you can write this much about a 7minute game/opening) which makes us believe that you are writing this down for lower league players (because 90% of your details are trivial to diamonds/masters), while this is a strategy designed to punish greedy toss-openings (aka higher tier protosses). So this whole guide doesn't make too much sence. Perhaps you're focusing more on making cheap selfpromotion?
I wish I could have executed this perfect after watching 1 vod from Leenock, but that's simply not the case. What makes the difference between a Platinum level player and a master level player executing this build is the details - which is why the guide goes into such detail on a 7minute game. A lot of lower-level players still open FFE, so this is absolutely viable for none-masters. Not everyone is master/GM and able to just mimic pros, and it's my goal to help players of all skill levels improve.
i just tried this build on ladder, and my opponent used his first zealot for scouting :/ got crushed by a high number of cannons + sentries of course -.-
Holy, this strategy is fucking BALLER. Ive used it twice, it's almost unstoppable! Denying scouting is the key-- it's very innovative and people NEVER expect it :D
It's so rewarding to see a Protoss panic and spend all his money on cannons that won't even do anything xD
On May 21 2012 04:57 Cirqueenflex wrote: i just tried this build on ladder, and my opponent used his first zealot for scouting :/ got crushed by a high number of cannons + sentries of course -.-
If they send a Zealot you need to intercept it with those 4-6 Lings you build in the beginning. The key to this build is denying scouting of the cancelled hatch, the warren, and the roaches themselves.
I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information.
Sick! gotta see if i can finally scare the shit out of some protoss alien scum if i go random and roll zerg :D Ill post some links to drop.sc after im done playing some games
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information.
seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout.
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information.
seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout.
Another thing too - if you watched the Leenock/Naniwa series from MLG, Leenock opened with the 10 roaches and didn't cancel his expansion in some games. Naniwa overcommitted to defenses while Leenock secured an economic lead.
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information.
seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout.
Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush.
I play at a Master level and tried this twice today, got FACESTOMPED both times, like wasn't even moderately close to winning. They know something is fishy when they see speedlings preventing their scout and they promptly get cannons / sentries.
I think its almost better to meta-game them by getting the speed, denying scout, and going like 4 bases with mass drone while they are sitting back scared (if you are playing someone good enough to actually have game sense and realize and all-in might be coming)
On May 24 2012 06:55 ChosenSC2 wrote: I play at a Master level and tried this twice today, got FACESTOMPED both times, like wasn't even moderately close to winning. They know something is fishy when they see speedlings preventing their scout and they promptly get cannons / sentries.
I think its almost better to meta-game them by getting the speed, denying scout, and going like 4 bases with mass drone while they are sitting back scared (if you are playing someone good enough to actually have game sense and realize and all-in might be coming)
basically this. Same here, I use to do this in masters as well. But once they see gas first they auto throw down 2-3 cannons and sentries. When you get speed so early protoss just skip their initial harass with zealot/stalker and proceed with their tech. All ins are really tough to execute these days with ZvP
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information.
seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout.
Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush.
I've actually tried out a bunch of variations like 3 hatch into 10 roaches, but I'm not sure what the best one would be. Typically around 20 gas or a later double gas seems to be good.
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information.
seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout.
Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush.
I've actually tried out a bunch of variations like 3 hatch into 10 roaches, but I'm not sure what the best one would be. Typically around 20 gas or a later double gas seems to be good.
On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote: I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information.
seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout.
Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush.
I've actually tried out a bunch of variations like 3 hatch into 10 roaches, but I'm not sure what the best one would be. Typically around 20 gas or a later double gas seems to be good.
On May 23 2012 09:59 TangSC wrote: [quote] I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out?
a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there.
I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172
I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick.
I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information.
seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout.
Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush.
I've actually tried out a bunch of variations like 3 hatch into 10 roaches, but I'm not sure what the best one would be. Typically around 20 gas or a later double gas seems to be good.
Yeah, as an all-in. Roaches let you pressure while droning behind it, which is why I've tried out variations like that.
you can do the roach all in with 3 hatch as well! The 3rd hatch just replaces the 2nd queen and is all about mind gaming. http://drop.sc/183278
I don't really recommend trying to drone behind roach pressure. you almost always end up with a smaller worker lead than if you had just skipped the roaches anyway (unless you win outright from the roaches).
On September 19 2012 05:08 TangSC wrote: Impossible to transition out of this, I would argue. Still a good build to have in your repertoire though! I used it a few times this season.
Isn't the 14 gas a giveaway? You cant deny scouting before that no?
Speed is sometimes gotten by Z's v P, so it isn't a perfect tell. I for one used this build to prop up my terrible ZvP all the way into mid masters, it is very very strong.
On September 19 2012 05:08 TangSC wrote: Impossible to transition out of this, I would argue. Still a good build to have in your repertoire though! I used it a few times this season.
Isn't the 14 gas a giveaway? You cant deny scouting before that no?
You can't deny scouting of gas-first, but there are a wide array of options available to the player who opens 14g/14p.
I'm a low to mid master zerg and I've given this build a few goes in custom games. In my experience you can easily experience a build order loss on all maps but ohana due to toss's strongly reacting to 14 gas (not necesarily the best thing for them to do). On ohana this strategy is much less hit and miss and the toss really needs to prepare for you back rocks change allot and the short rush distance helps. I wouldn't use this as your only zvp strat but in a bo3 where Ohana comes up it's certainly a build worth throwing in. As ever thanks for the build tang <3
I have recently started doing a bad variation of this vs 1 gate expos. No reason not to really, it is almost guaranteed to flood a Protoss out of his unsafe expansion when properly executed, even with my horribly late gas (I scout on 13, so usually see the gateway around the 15 supply mark when I'm taking my nat).
Definitely not optimal, and not deserving of it's own thread, but it borrows a lot of ideas from this build.
When was the last time this build worked for anyone? I can't believe I used to die to this. I can't believe good Protoss used to die to this.
If there is no 3rd at 4:30, it's cannon time. Cancel whatever you have queued in the gate and pump sentries. If they bail and try to transition (research hallucination to be sure). A slightly late sentry immortal all in wins 95% of the time.
You can do a 7 roach rush that hatches at 4:50 or so off of an 11 overpool that looks completely innocuous until it hits. I think that the timing on this 10 roach rush is a little late and the early gas telegraphs hard that something is up, and they have ample, ample time to react.
On October 13 2012 04:31 Jermstuddog wrote: I have recently started doing a bad variation of this vs 1 gate expos. No reason not to really, it is almost guaranteed to flood a Protoss out of his unsafe expansion when properly executed, even with my horribly late gas (I scout on 13, so usually see the gateway around the 15 supply mark when I'm taking my nat).
Definitely not optimal, and not deserving of it's own thread, but it borrows a lot of ideas from this build.
I occasionally mix this in against Gateway expand as well. Some weird games develop when they try to 4gate and are forced into their base.
As a protoss, gas before 3rd means I'm expecting some kind of all in. Seems easily scoutable to me, and not hard to hold. Drop extra cannons and you're pretty much safe.
On October 13 2012 04:31 Jermstuddog wrote: I have recently started doing a bad variation of this vs 1 gate expos. No reason not to really, it is almost guaranteed to flood a Protoss out of his unsafe expansion when properly executed, even with my horribly late gas (I scout on 13, so usually see the gateway around the 15 supply mark when I'm taking my nat).
Definitely not optimal, and not deserving of it's own thread, but it borrows a lot of ideas from this build.
I occasionally mix this in against Gateway expand as well. Some weird games develop when they try to 4gate and are forced into their base.
From the other side of the fence, as someone who goes 13 gate 15 gas Stalker-Nexus-Stalker, if I scout gas I don't even pressure the zerg. I just try to take my watchtower and maybe poke the other one for a second, then go back home and wall off. I also get a Stargate in that situation 100% of the time because a Void Ray puts a clock on the push and will always get charged against Roaches, and then when I take a third I can use that and a handful of Zealots to either clear the way or force a lot of non-drones. This also makes me safe against Nydus play by killing nearby overlords, and Mutas by going into Phoenixes afterward--and then I have a really good way to scout and harass the Zerg because of air control. So, that's the textbook response for a 1Gate Stalker Expo.
As of current metagame, This build is kaputt. Gas earlier than 3rd/early ling speed is obvious that something cheesy is coming. The only all-in viable is stephano's 12 max roach nowadays.
On October 19 2012 15:19 Discarder wrote: As of current metagame, This build is kaputt. Gas earlier than 3rd/early ling speed is obvious that something cheesy is coming. The only all-in viable is stephano's 12 max roach nowadays.
I'd argue the roach maxout is among the least viable all-ins nowadays, with so many players going blind immortal/sentry.
On January 13 2013 04:46 LucoxP wrote: I'm being serious, i used it abit before and had good succsess with it, can anyone tell me if its viable or not?
It's still a very strong build. A great way to punish protoss players who play too greedy but if the protoss respondes in a proper fashion, i.e. just chrono sentries/build extra cannons when they see 6 lings + fast gas + late hatch, you should have a hard time to kill him. The reason can be very effective since alot of protosses do in fact NOT respond to scouting information correctly, especially in lower legues.
I'm guessing it's a bit less viable because more and more protosses have begun to realize that sacrifising a bit economy isn't a big deal when zerg is opening fast gas because the zergs economy will be suffering as well. Still, I think you will rack up quite a few wins on ladder using this build, and this is also a good way to throw someone of in a BoX series.
Yes, it's viable. But like others have said, it depends on him not scouting the all-in before it hits. If he scouts, he can completely wall and drop like, 5 canons and still be way ahead.
On January 13 2013 04:00 LucoxP wrote: Is this still viable?
It is still a viable meta-game tactic, especially if you. . . a) Open with other gas-first builds that aren't as all-in. b) Deny Probe scouting of the main, later, the cancelled expansion. c) Hold Xel-Naga towers and clear any Zealots/Probes moving across the map before they see your Roaches.
I would say Protoss players are a bit more experienced and efficient at defending against this build now - it used to be much more devastating - but it is still viable at any level. I've even been using it in HotS with moderate success.
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