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Maybe spoilers for MLG Providence
The most memorable part of MLG this weekend for me as a Zerg was Leenock's ZvP build where he would fake an expo to roach rush an FFE, against Naniwa he used it a couple times, to varying degrees of effectiveness.
I don't think this is going to be a standard build, but it'll be a nice BO to keep in the pocket, similarly to a Fake-expo 4gate, just to bust out in a BoX competition.
From what I could see in the VODs, the build order looks like this:
10 Overlord
14 Extractor
14 Pool
15 Overlord
@100% Pool - 2 sets of Zerglings, Queen, Metabolic Boost
Remove 2 drones from gas
20 Hatchery
Put 2 drones back on gas
19 2 Overlords
19 Roach Warren
Cancel hatchery when near completion
@ 200 gas - pull 2 drones from gas
@ 100% Roach Warren - 8 Roaches
As larva allows:
6 Zerglings
1 Overlord
Reinforce with pure zerglings
Leenock does not seem to remove the drone from gas after making the roaches
Also, after making ~12 Zerglings as the third wave of lings (4, 6, then 12), he goes into droning, not sure if this is part of the build or a response to what happens in both games
Game 1 - Shakuras Plateau
+ Show Spoiler +Leenock spawning at 7, Naniwa spawning at 2
Naniwa goes Nexus first
Naniwa scouts the lings and roaches with 2 zealots in the middle of the map, allowing him time to put up three cannons, further away from his wall
-I'm pretty sure the Zealots would have just seen the roaches within their vision
Push hits at 6:50
Naniwa has two sentries with what seems like one forcefield each
Leenock kills the cannon and the gateway, but the cannons prevent him from moving forward so he has to retreat and try to macro up
At this point, I assume Leenock is dead so I don't analyze the rest of the game.
Game 3 - Tal'darim Altar
+ Show Spoiler +Spawning Leenock at 11, Naniwa at 7
Naniwa goes Nexus first
First zealot that is at the xel'naga tower is taken out by the initial 4 Zerglings
The second zealot comes out later and is killed by the 4 initial Zerglings + 6 additional Zerglings, so a 10 Zergling army, without seeing the roaches
After making ~12 reinforcing Zerglings during the attack, he goes into pure droning, I'm not sure if this is his normal follow up or a response to seeing Naniwa's front wall.
The push reaches the wall off at 6:50
He easily kills the cannon, the gateway and streams in and wins the game, while Naniwa has only that cannon and 2 sentries defending
Some points I noted about the games
-The key to this build is the first four lings preventing any scouting. You have to make sure the initial scouting probe is killed or scared off back to the base. Then you have to defend against any scouting Zealots or probes to make sure they don't see the Roach Warren, the Hatch cancel or the advancing Roaches. It is critical to control the scouting paths and the Towers, especially when you start moving out with the push
-Leenock goes straight 10 overlord. I assume this build works regardless of overlord timing, so this seems more like stylistic choice than anything. I'm not entirely sure what the rationale for this overlord time is though, so the build may not flow as smoothly if you do something else, though I haven't tested this.
-Leenock does not seem to scout with a drone. Even on a map like Dual Site, where you can't necessarily expect an FFE, he only uses an Overlord to scout. This may only because he knows Naniwa always FFE. I can't find the VODs of his games against Huk, I don't even know if that was streamed, so I can't compare his scout patterns against other Protoss. Also, on Shattered Temple, they spawned close air, so he might have had to use a drone to scout if they were cross positions.
-The engagement with the Roaches at the wall first targets the cannon, then the pylon, then the gateway. This is to prevent damage to Roaches, then the pylon unpowers the gateway and any emergency cannons so that Protoss cannot make anything to defend other than what units they managed to eek out before the attack
-Game 2 on Shattered Temple, he loses his first four lings without doing any damage, so he can't prevent scouting, which might be why he doesn't go for a full Hatch-cancel all-in. He also makes three drones before the 2 Overlords, presumably because he can since he lost the lings
-The hatch cancel just gives you money for the reinforcing lings. In game 2 against Naniwa, Leenock still makes the 8 roaches, just with no lings, otherwise it doesn't make the push any stronger or faster
-Probably my favorite part of the build is that if Protoss is one-basing, you still have a perfectly fine build against normal one base plays. I think this build would also be really strong against a 3gate expand or 4gate. Otherwise, you're just opening 14/14 which is completely normal for a ZvP build
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if the earliest 4 lings completely deny the P scouting, like in game 3 you described, then what is the advantage of faking the hatch and then cancel? the whole thing turned into a 6:50 timing push period.
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The first probe scout you can't stop with lings. You want that first probe scout to scout you putting down your hatchery. You have to use the 4 lings to stop the second probe scout or the first zealot scout; basically you need to stop the protoss from scouting that you cancelled your hatchery.
You also need to use these initial lings to make sure that there is nothing that is in the middle of the map that the protoss can use to see your roaches coming halfway. In the first game Naniwa scouting the roaches in the middle of the map and had plenty of time to throw down mass cannon and Leenock got destroyed. In the second game Leenock cleared out naniwa's zealots in the middle of the map with his zerglings and naniwa had no idea the roaches were coming, Leenock proceeded to destroy naniwa.
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If the protoss goes 15 or 16 nexus like nani did, then it can punish them very severely if no more than one or two cannons are made, it was a great BO choice, thanks for copying it down
I think that if protoss goes that greedy, they must be punished and this is a beautiful way to do so
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
In General vs FFE, zergs should not get zergling speed vs FFE. it serves no purpose other than to deny scout. It also costs a ton of money (1 drone + 200 minerals). If you're playing a macro game, you'll be much much better off just making queens and hatcheries.
The purpose of getting speedling is to threaten an all-in. Because of that Protoss should blindly add cannons vs a speedling opener because of the threat of all-in, as well as the fact that zerg's economy is heavily damaged by getting zergling speed early on.
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On November 21 2011 17:59 Que wrote:
if the earliest 4 lings completely deny the P scouting, like in game 3 you described, then what is the advantage of faking the hatch and then cancel? the whole thing turned into a 6:50 timing push period.
They cant deny the first probe scout so you expand. Then you use your 4 lings to deny info after youve expanded and to make sure you dont get spotted when you move out so the P player cant warp in cannons. Thats the idea of it.
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I still feel it's kind of risky, especially if you are up against a protoss who always does the 2 probe scout after FFE. It's not easy to hunt down 2 probes + zealots while preventing the protoss from seeing your roaches altogether with just a couple of lings. If the map is big like TDA it would be pretty hard to catch that 2nd sneaky probe that is usually used to check for quick thirds/hide pylons/try to sneak into the main or natural for extra info.
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Of course it's risky. It's high risk and high reward, but it's a good all-in that is effective against a common protoss opening. It's a good way of keeping them honest.
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There is really no point in making a build order for this because basically the hatch cancel is just a mindgame thing, to hope that your opponnt does not go for like 3 cannons but stays on 1 or doesn't even complete the wallof.
They cant deny the first probe scout so you expand. Then you use your 4 lings to deny info after youve expanded and to make sure you dont get spotted when you move out so the P player cant warp in cannons. Thats the idea of it.
You have to make sure he sees the hatchery though.
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On November 21 2011 18:14 T.O.P. wrote:
In General vs FFE, zergs should not get zergling speed vs FFE. it serves no purpose other than to deny scout. It also costs a ton of money (1 drone + 200 minerals). If you're playing a macro game, you'll be much much better off just making queens and hatcheries.
The purpose of getting speedling is to threaten an all-in. Because of that Protoss should blindly add cannons vs a speedling opener because of the threat of all-in, as well as the fact that zerg's economy is heavily damaged by getting zergling speed early on.
I totally agree
but say you expect your opponent to go gateway first on xel'naga so you get speed but you see him forge FEing
if you can all-in that definitely makes it hard for him to play against you
and if you get speed and get on three bases and he made extra cannons, you're back even because he made the extra cannon
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On November 21 2011 19:05 KeksX wrote:There is really no point in making a build order for this because basically the hatch cancel is just a mindgame thing, to hope that your opponnt does not go for like 3 cannons but stays on 1 or doesn't even complete the wallof. Show nested quote +They cant deny the first probe scout so you expand. Then you use your 4 lings to deny info after youve expanded and to make sure you dont get spotted when you move out so the P player cant warp in cannons. Thats the idea of it. You have to make sure he sees the hatchery though.
I disagree. Like I said, this is not a good standard build but something you use in the middle of a series as mindgames to keep your opponent guessing. But the build itself requires a very strict BO. I specifically studied this one because the timings and resources fit really, really well and tightly. Basically the entire build is really clean and efficient so you need to follow really a really tight build order to make it work.
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Can I bring up another point?
How smart/dumb was it of Naniwa to send those zealots out knowing that the Zerg had speed? I mean, in the first game he sacced them but scouted the roaches. Still, Leenock could have avoided that (a bit of sloppiness from Leenock's part). In the third game he lost 2 zealots for free, which would have been crucial if he had 3 cannons.
My opinion is that it is just too much risk to too little reward sending those zealots to die. If the Zerg spots them coming out of the P's base, all he has to do is send 4 slings after them, which he might already have out (and probably does). It felt like Naniwa was not taking into consideration Leenock went speed first at all.
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I don't see why Protosses wouldn't double probe scout and/or zealot scout if you're not going to add extra cannons. This is basically the exact same thing as nexus canceled 4/5 gate.
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I dont see what is so special about that build...
You guys realize its a 7 roach rush but with a hatchery cancel...
Its the exact same build... + a hatchery cancel... You make 7-8 roachs and reinforce with lings...
Its an all in and will fail agaist 2 canon + 1 sentry. Will the protoss have them... Thats the questions, once he has 2 canon and a sentry, he can build canon in the back while you kill the 2 canon and FF if you kill a building in front to deny the ling run by...
I mean really... Whats the difference between this and a 7RR... I dont understand why you guys find it amasing...
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definitly gonna try it up!
+ Show Spoiler +on game 3 i was like Omg he's doing it again, also good choice. because naniwa was opening ALL the matches against Z nexus first before the forge, naniwa mastered it to a level that can stop any 6, 9 or 10 pool withouth making a pylon at main nexus.
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On November 21 2011 20:10 Yokoblue wrote:
I dont see what is so special about that build...
You guys realize its a 7 roach rush but with a hatchery cancel...
Its the exact same build... + a hatchery cancel... You make 7-8 roachs and reinforce with lings...
Its an all in and will fail agaist 2 canon + 1 sentry. Will the protoss have them... Thats the questions, once he has 2 canon and a sentry, he can build canon in the back while you kill the 2 canon and FF if you kill a building in front to deny the ling run by...
I mean really... Whats the difference between this and a 7RR... I dont understand why you guys find it amasing...
What's special is that a Korean dude just used it twice in a tournament finals. This is more than enough to warrant discussion.
Discussing a build isn't just discussing the BO, it's discussing what to do with your units, what to target, when to commit, etc.
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I feel like this topic is discussed a lot but I guess I'll discuss it again.
Nexus first vs forge first
It's the same build. If you can scout the zerg first and confirm that he's not doing a fast pool (fast as in faster than 14 pool), you can safely nexus first. Otherwise you have to forge first. Either way, it doesn't affect defending roach rushes at all.
"Punishing" a FFE or "keeping the protoss honest"
Nope. It's a great all-in to use against FFE, that's for sure, but it just comes down to scouting denial for the zerg and scouting it for the protoss. If it's scouted, then the protoss can easily defend it. A protoss going FFE should never blindly make more than 1 or 2 cannons.
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
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On November 21 2011 20:10 Yokoblue wrote:
I dont see what is so special about that build...
You guys realize its a 7 roach rush but with a hatchery cancel...
Its the exact same build... + a hatchery cancel... You make 7-8 roachs and reinforce with lings...
Its an all in and will fail agaist 2 canon + 1 sentry. Will the protoss have them... Thats the questions, once he has 2 canon and a sentry, he can build canon in the back while you kill the 2 canon and FF if you kill a building in front to deny the ling run by...
I mean really... Whats the difference between this and a 7RR... I dont understand why you guys find it amasing...
7rr is much different. For one, it hits much earlier because you don't make anything except drones and roaches. In other words, it is scouted immediately because you make the Roach Warren at 19 while the probe is capable of scouting that you have no hatch and no lings, meaning that he can prepare adequate defenses.
Lennock's build is designed to prevent scouting with early lings and still look like a relatively normal build.
Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a gimmick build, but it's an interesting one.
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On November 21 2011 20:28 coL.rsvp wrote:
I feel like this topic is discussed a lot but I guess I'll discuss it again.
Nexus first vs forge first
It's the same build. If you can scout the zerg first and confirm that he's not doing a fast pool (fast as in faster than 14 pool), you can safely nexus first. Otherwise you have to forge first. Either way, it doesn't affect defending roach rushes at all.
"Punishing" a FFE or "keeping the protoss honest"
Nope. It's a great all-in to use against FFE, that's for sure, but it just comes down to scouting denial for the zerg and scouting it for the protoss. If it's scouted, then the protoss can easily defend it. A protoss going FFE should never blindly make more than 1 or 2 cannons.
Zealot scouting
Zealot scouting is absolutely crucial. With correct micro on both sides, a zealot generally beats 4 slowlings, but 4 speedlings generally beats a zealot. So if the zerg has 4 speedlings, you have to either wait for 2 zealots, or use 1 zealot + 1 probe at the same time. Naniwa's mistake was not microing his zealot. If the zerg denies your zealot scout or makes more than 4 lings early on, you must make additional cannons.
Thank you. I was facepalming watching Naniwa not micro his zealot and letting it die to 4 speedlings. If you've going to always do the 6 zealot opening, why not send the first 2 to scout for the roach rush that has been killing you the past X games? Or just 1 zealot and a probe with micro.
I didn't really see any reason why Leenock would stop doing that build as long as Naniwa refused to respond to it.
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On November 21 2011 20:03 Sbrubbles wrote:
Can I bring up another point?
How smart/dumb was it of Naniwa to send those zealots out knowing that the Zerg had speed? I mean, in the first game he sacced them but scouted the roaches. Still, Leenock could have avoided that (a bit of sloppiness from Leenock's part). In the third game he lost 2 zealots for free, which would have been crucial if he had 3 cannons.
My opinion is that it is just too much risk to too little reward sending those zealots to die. If the Zerg spots them coming out of the P's base, all he has to do is send 4 slings after them, which he might already have out (and probably does). It felt like Naniwa was not taking into consideration Leenock went speed first at all.
Naniwa sends 2 zealots out. Leenock does not have enough larvae to deny those zealots from scouting AND perform the roach rush.
Naniwa's mistake was not sending those 2 zealots together. He instead sent them one at a time, allowing ling micro to deny the zealots from scouting the roaches.
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EPT
