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[G] LiquidZenio's ZvP All-In: 3 Hatch Ling/Bane

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-24 20:13:28
April 21 2012 20:16 GMT
#1
[G] LiquidZenio's ZvP All-In: 3 Hatch Speedling Baneling

[image loading]

Hello and thank you for taking the time to view another Zerg vs Protoss guide, focusing on an aggressive build created by the Korean Pro, LiquidZenio.

Many of you probably recognize Zenio from his tournament achievements and his unique style of roach-less ZvP, which Day9 covered in Day9 Daily #412. One of the things that makes Zenio's play so exciting to watch is his willingness to mix it up and deviate from standard styles. Today we're going to look at one such creative build – the 3Hatch Ling/Baneling all-in. It is a deceptive build that takes advantage of the current ZvP trends, and can be used on most ladder and tournament maps. Ideally, it is best to use on maps where baneling busts are more effective because expansions are too wide to wall-in with 3 large buildings. For example, Terminus, Korhal, and Ohana are excellent, while Shakuras is not recommended.

The idea of executing a baneling bust against Protoss may seem far-fetched, but for some time it has been a common all-in composition that top zerg players have used against the FFE. In season 2, I remember seeing a tournament game where JulyZerg crushed his Protoss opponent with a 1-base baneling bust. He opened with the then-popular 14gas/14pool, but instead of expanding once his zerglings killed the pylon blocking the natural, JulyZerg massed zerglings and went for a super-early, successful bust.

Later when 14pool 15gas was the standard opening, I saw Nestea cripple Naniwa with a similar build: 2Base Baneling Bust, where Nestea took an expansion to trick Naniwa, then busted him slightly later than the JulyZerg version. Both of these builds were extremely effective meta-game strategies on maps with wide expansions like Tal'Darim Altar and Xel-Naga Caverns. However, the meta-game has now shifted and these types of builds are becoming less effective. With the prevalence of Zergs opening gas-less 3hatch roach/ling or “Stephano Style”, Protoss players are immediately suspicious if they scout early gas. They will most often respond by chronoboosting sentries or producing 1-2 additional cannons, which shuts down 1-2 base baneling busts. The thing that makes this build so genius is the opening resembles a 3-hatch roach macro style, so it doesn't give your protoss opponent any reason to build additional defenses:

5-6 Banelings and 25+ Speedlings arrive at opponent's base at 7:15

As long as you don't allow him to scout your gas or streaming zerglings, this an excellent way to catch a protoss player off guard and bust before warpgates or stargates finish.

References:

+ Show Spoiler +
Zenio's Liquidpedia Page
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zenio

LiquidZenio vs Naniwa (GSL Terminus SE)
http://drop.sc/124072

Tang vs Noumena (Metalopolis)
http://drop.sc/161709

Tang vs CHARLIE (Ohana LE)
http://drop.sc/161714

Tang vs FtaCtHerring (Korhal Compound LE)
http://drop.sc/161713

Tang vs GSkillHunter (Korhal Compound 3-Pylon Cannon Rush)
http://drop.sc/164734

Tang vs eFragDeaDoX (Metalopolis)
http://drop.sc/161712

Tang vsEclipse (Daybreak LE)
http://drop.sc/161711

Tang vs ExO (Entombed Valley)
http://drop.sc/161710

Tang vs ILOVECHICKS (Ohana LE)
http://drop.sc/161708

Tang vs ClashShew (Antiga Shipyard)
http://drop.sc/161707

Tang vs Banzai (Ohana LE 2-Gate Zealot)
http://drop.sc/161706

Tang vs ABomB (Ohana LE)
http://drop.sc/161705

Tang vs fLcEifeR (Korhal Compound)
http://drop.sc/164735

Tang vs cScNuTS (Antiga Shipyard)
http://drop.sc/164758

Tang vs VirtualLight (Tal'Darim Altar)
http://drop.sc/164737

Tang vs Practice (Shakuras Plateau)
http://drop.sc/164736

Day9 Daily #389: Liquid Zenio's Sturdy ZvP


Day9 Daily #412: ZvP Roach Free Zeniownage



Stream Tutorial:

+ Show Spoiler +
Tang Tutorial - LiquidZenio's 3Hatch Ling Baneling All-In:
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/315727400


Reddit Link:

+ Show Spoiler +
LiquidZenio's Ling Baneling All-In - Please upvote!


The Build Order:

+ Show Spoiler +
Note: The opening you choose should resemble a standard Zerg macro build. Most variations of pool first into 3 hatcheries are acceptable, but here is how Zenio does it assuming a 1-pylon block at natural:

9Overlord
14Pool
15Overlord
15Drone
16Queen (Inject first, tumour second, then all injects)
18 2x Lings (Keep 1 at natural to deny scouting of your main)
20 Gas (As soon as probe is down the ramp)
19-21 Drones
21 Hatchery
20 Drone
21 Overlord
21-26 Drones
26 3rd Base (4:45-5:00)
25 Zergling speed (First 100 Gas)
27 Baneling Nest (Next 50 gas)
26-31 Zerglings
31 Overlord
31+ Zerglings / Banelings.

If you're testing this build, you should have just enough gas for 5-6 banelings and 25~ Lings with speed by roughly 7:15.


Zenio's Timings:

+ Show Spoiler +
Note: While the following timings are based off Zenio vs nAniwa on GSL Terminus SE and may vary slightly from game to game, the majority of timings stay the same regardless of minor things you change early on (Like pool timing, natural timing)
http://drop.sc/124072

3:15-3:20 – When your lings come out and chase probe away from the main, you immediately start a gas (This is the only gas you build all game).
[image loading]

4:40 – Zenio lays on tumour at edge of creep and moves his single queen to expansion. With the creep connecting the bases, it becomes easier to deny probes scouting the gas geyser. Also, you should transfer your queen down to the expansion because any protoss who scouts that zerg has 3 hatcheries and a queen injecting at the expansion will likely assume business as usual.
[image loading]

5:00 – In order to resemble a 3base macro style (Like Stephano's 3hatch Roach/ling) the third base must be started by 5:00. Zergling speed should also be researching by now too.
[image loading]

5:15/5:30 Baneling nest can be started in the main.
[image loading]

5:45 - Cut drones, all zergling production. Make sure you have supply to 44.
[image loading]

6:40-7:00 – Make sure you have all three hatcheries hotkeyed and rallied. Morph in banelings and get in the habit of hotkeying your lings and banelings in a separate control group.
[image loading]

7:00-7:20 Lead with banelings and bust the front. Aim for any pylons or zealots that are part of the wall, or go for the forge.
[image loading]


Sample Game Overview:

+ Show Spoiler +
Game Link: http://drop.sc/161708

1) Exchange pleasantries with your opponents, keep it friendly!
[image loading]

2) Open pool first. Choose whichever version you're most familiar with (11,14,15. Zenio does 14)
[image loading]

3) Take a hatch as fast as you can. If he doesn't pylon block you, get a hatch up as early as 16 before the overlord (If you prefer, you can wait at 15 or 16 supply to build an overlord, queen, and 2 sets of lings before your natural).
[image loading]

4) Start your queen and 2 sets of lings, standard macro ZvP so far.
[image loading]

5) As soon as your lings have chased the probe down the ramp, start your gas.
[image loading]

6) Keep chasing that probe, you don't want him to scout your earlier-than-usual gas.
[image loading]

7) Squeeze out a few drones before you take your 3rd (but start it by 5min at the latest)
[image loading]

8) Make sure you only build one queen to inject (optional 1 tumour). Also fill gas asap.
[image loading]

9) You can't stop the probe from scouting your 3rd, and in fact you prefer that he does scout it.
[image loading]

10) Start zergling speed ASAP (4:45-5:00)
[image loading]

11) Use your next 50 gas to start your baneling nest, around 26, 27 supply or 5:15/5:30)
[image loading]

12) Cut drones at or before the 6minute mark (26~ supply) then make all zerglings. Make sure you have overlords, set the rally point, and move your initial lings out to take the xel naga. You need map control at this stage so he doesn't scout all your lings streaming.
[image loading]

13) Use 4-6 lings to surround if he has one zealot. If he has a stalker, avoid engaging it without speed.
[image loading]

14) Morph banelings outside the range of the xel naga towers but as close as possible to opponent's natural.
[image loading]

15) Once speed is complete, the cover is blown so there is no longer a reason to hide your zerglings. Set the rally closer, get your banelings moving, and use you speedlings to scout the front and kill vulnerable Protoss units.
[image loading]

16) Lead the banelings into weaknesses in the wall (Pylons, cannons). Remember forges have less HP than Cyber/Gateway.
[image loading]

17) Once you break a hole, swarm in with lings and set rally inside the expansion.
[image loading]

18) Split zerglings into the main and natural, go for probes, units, and any important pylons.
[image loading]

19) Yep, keeping it friendly!
[image loading]


Questions and Answers:

+ Show Spoiler +
Q: I was personally wondering if it is possible to have enough sentries to hold the ramp from the banelings. Would toss try and hold this off with zealot sentry? If so, what kind of transitions would we be looking at in the position we're in? In the Day9 Daily, Zenio goes into a mutalisk strategy, would roaches be the better transition?

A: It's absolutely possible to hold if you have 2+ sentries and you build additional cannons / buildings if necessary to complete the wall. I think you would have to continuously chrono-boost sentries with 3 cannons to defend. Defending this requires scouting the quantity of lings that the Zerg is producing as early as possible.

Q: How can protoss players defend this?

A: You gotta scout it or die. Every FFE build either has pressure or opens up sentries. If you open up sentries, you're in a decent position. If you open up a pressure build, you should know something is up as soon as your units die to speedlings. There's no reason to have speedlings at that timing when you go 3 hatch other than either a ling runby or a baneling bust.
Then I would reinforce my wall with gateways, add cannons, and chrono sentries. Cross my fingers and hope for the best.(Thanks to NrGMonk for submitting this answer)

Please suggest discussion questions and I will add to this section.


Feedback:

+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: Do you find the content, structure, and style of this guide effective?

5 - Excellent Guide, concise information, extremely helpful (110)
 
79%

4 - Solid Guide, good analysis, pretty helpful (16)
 
11%

1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports. (9)
 
6%

3- Average Guide, probably going to help some people. (4)
 
3%

2 - Some helpful material, but overall not very informative (1)
 
1%

140 total votes

Your vote: Do you find the content, structure, and style of this guide effective?

(Vote): 5 - Excellent Guide, concise information, extremely helpful
(Vote): 4 - Solid Guide, good analysis, pretty helpful
(Vote): 3- Average Guide, probably going to help some people.
(Vote): 2 - Some helpful material, but overall not very informative
(Vote): 1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports.



Thank you all very much for reading! Please do not hesitate to comment with any suggestions about how I can improve the quality of this and future guides.


- Tang

Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Forbidden17
Profile Joined December 2011
666 Posts
April 21 2012 20:22 GMT
#2
awesome guide!! love the extremely well mannered opponent
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
April 21 2012 20:28 GMT
#3
You really need to leran how to play man.
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
April 21 2012 20:35 GMT
#4
Nice quality guide, but the content isn't surprising. However, this build is kinda sick.
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
April 21 2012 20:38 GMT
#5
sick guide. tl would be so boring without people giving to the community like tang
21 is half the truth
Forbidden17
Profile Joined December 2011
666 Posts
April 21 2012 20:38 GMT
#6
On April 22 2012 05:28 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
You really need to leran how to play man.

yea, how dare he make guides on the playstyles of successful pro-gamers. Tang's playstyle is so bad
Yamulo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2096 Posts
April 21 2012 20:40 GMT
#7
If they don't see the third it might not be advisable to do this. You got this from the Zenio naniwa series right?
~~~Liquid Fighting (SC2)~~~
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 21 2012 20:41 GMT
#8
Let's talk about Zenio, not me!

Do you all think this could be a build used in response to certain scouting information, or just a blind meta-game tactic? (Not implying a blind meta-game tactic is necessarily a bad thing).
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Host-
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand459 Posts
April 21 2012 20:42 GMT
#9
Just when Protoss started figuring out Roach ling all ins you make a guide for this =D cheers tang, great guide as per usual.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 21 2012 20:42 GMT
#10
On April 22 2012 05:40 Yamulo wrote:
If they don't see the third it might not be advisable to do this. You got this from the Zenio naniwa series right?

Yes I did, though I have seen him use the build in other games. One of the cool aspects of this build is if you start speed with your first hundred gas, and scout to find the protoss is playing VERY defensive (3+ cannons early) you could just do a with-speed version of the Stephano style instead of going for the bust. It's only an all-in commitment once you start streaming lings.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Andromedan
Profile Joined December 2011
64 Posts
April 21 2012 20:45 GMT
#11
Thorough guide Tang
I was personally wondering if it is possible to have enough sentries to hold the ramp from the banelings. Would toss try and hold this off with zealot sentry? If so, what kind of transitions would we be looking at in the position we're in? In the Day9 Daily, Zenio goes into a mutalisk strategy, would roaches be the better transition?
This pain you hold is yours. Nobody else on God’s green earth can feel this pain, or have the indescribable feeling of pride you will have when you overcome it. This pain is not your curse; this pain is your privilege.
Host-
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand459 Posts
April 21 2012 20:47 GMT
#12
Do you pull drones off gas after the initial 350 or so for speed/nest/6 banes? Because if you do, I guess you can venture into a macro game even if you don't kill your opponent, obviously you need to do some damage though.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 21 2012 20:49 GMT
#13
On April 22 2012 05:45 Andromedan wrote:
Thorough guide Tang
I was personally wondering if it is possible to have enough sentries to hold the ramp from the banelings. Would toss try and hold this off with zealot sentry? If so, what kind of transitions would we be looking at in the position we're in? In the Day9 Daily, Zenio goes into a mutalisk strategy, would roaches be the better transition?

It's absolutely possible to hold if you have 2+ sentries and you build additional cannons / buildings if necessary to complete the wall. I think you would have to continuously chrono-boost sentries with 3 cannons to defend.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 21 2012 20:51 GMT
#14
On April 22 2012 05:47 Host- wrote:
Do you pull drones off gas after the initial 350 or so for speed/nest/6 banes? Because if you do, I guess you can venture into a macro game even if you don't kill your opponent, obviously you need to do some damage though.

I've used it as a make-it or break-it build so far, and haven't had success with macro transitions. I think you would have to kill the natural or at all least the probes at the natural to even it out. You do have a 3rd base, but with only 1 queen and about 20-24 Drones, you're in pretty dire straights against a secure 2base protoss.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TheMooseHeed
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom535 Posts
April 21 2012 21:03 GMT
#15
I have been meaning to learn an allin that can keep my opponent honest in a several match series. This could be what I was looking for I will have to try it out
''Swarm hosts are the worst thing in the world, I mean terrorism is pretty bad but swarmhosts are worse'' IdrA on ZvZ
rikter
Profile Joined November 2010
United States352 Posts
April 21 2012 21:04 GMT
#16
Is the third really necessary? Couldn't you just cut the third for a second queen plus 150 extra mins? I've seen Idra do something similar, in the recent series v symbol. This was a z v z game; I mention it because he had a similar comp, slightly earlier, off 2 hatch, and he wasn't even all-in, so if you want to go all in it would seem like you could do it off two bases.

If the third is a necessary feint, to keep him from preppping for the bust, could you maybe just cancel once he scouts it?

This is an improvement over the other guides, credit to you for that. The bit of analysis on how the map effects the build is a good addition. I'm on my phone and can't check, what patch are the pro replays from and what patch are your replays from?
No one wants a box of shit, even if it is for Christmas.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-21 21:09:44
April 21 2012 21:06 GMT
#17
On April 22 2012 06:04 rikter wrote:
Is the third really necessary? Couldn't you just cut the third for a second queen plus 150 extra mins? I've seen Idra do something similar, in the recent series v symbol. This was a z v z game; I mention it because he had a similar comp, slightly earlier, off 2 hatch, and he wasn't even all-in, so if you want to go all in it would seem like you could do it off two bases.

If the third is a necessary feint, to keep him from preppping for the bust, could you maybe just cancel once he scouts it?

This is an improvement over the other guides, credit to you for that. The bit of analysis on how the map effects the build is a good addition. I'm on my phone and can't check, what patch are the pro replays from and what patch are your replays from?

Cutting the 3rd would be too suspicious, you want the protoss player to scout that. I think it is best to let it finish, for the larva/metagame/potential macro transition.

The pro replay is a bit older, at least a season or 2 ago. My replays are mostly from this season.

Edit: If you cancel your 3rd, you have no way to deny his scouting that you've done so because speed won't be done for a while.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
qwertyindeed
Profile Joined November 2010
151 Posts
April 21 2012 21:26 GMT
#18
i play with this alot, i like GLsnutes variation much better though, u get gas at 21 and second gas around 32 supply
u end up morphing like 20blings, its just as hard to scout ,
if u see aggressive scouting u can still keep a drone at 3rd and make hatch, then cancel it when scouts gone.

with that many blings u can destroy forge and gateway too with good positioning

i have several replays of it if anyone's interested
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
April 21 2012 21:28 GMT
#19
On April 22 2012 06:26 qwertyindeed wrote:
i play with this alot, i like GLsnutes variation much better though, u get gas at 21 and second gas around 32 supply
u end up morphing like 20blings, its just as hard to scout ,
if u see aggressive scouting u can still keep a drone at 3rd and make hatch, then cancel it when scouts gone.

with that many blings u can destroy forge and gateway too with good positioning

i have several replays of it if anyone's interested

Absolutely, I'd love to view those reps qwerty, sounds interesting.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
WTFspaghetti
Profile Joined April 2012
United States2 Posts
April 21 2012 21:28 GMT
#20
Love the presentation, thank you Tang
I'm not questioning your honor, I'm denying it's existence
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