Hello and thank you for taking the time to view another Zerg vs Protoss guide, focusing on an aggressive build created by the Korean Pro, LiquidZenio.
Many of you probably recognize Zenio from his tournament achievements and his unique style of roach-less ZvP, which Day9 covered in Day9 Daily #412. One of the things that makes Zenio's play so exciting to watch is his willingness to mix it up and deviate from standard styles. Today we're going to look at one such creative build – the 3Hatch Ling/Baneling all-in. It is a deceptive build that takes advantage of the current ZvP trends, and can be used on most ladder and tournament maps. Ideally, it is best to use on maps where baneling busts are more effective because expansions are too wide to wall-in with 3 large buildings. For example, Terminus, Korhal, and Ohana are excellent, while Shakuras is not recommended.
The idea of executing a baneling bust against Protoss may seem far-fetched, but for some time it has been a common all-in composition that top zerg players have used against the FFE. In season 2, I remember seeing a tournament game where JulyZerg crushed his Protoss opponent with a 1-base baneling bust. He opened with the then-popular 14gas/14pool, but instead of expanding once his zerglings killed the pylon blocking the natural, JulyZerg massed zerglings and went for a super-early, successful bust.
Later when 14pool 15gas was the standard opening, I saw Nestea cripple Naniwa with a similar build: 2Base Baneling Bust, where Nestea took an expansion to trick Naniwa, then busted him slightly later than the JulyZerg version. Both of these builds were extremely effective meta-game strategies on maps with wide expansions like Tal'Darim Altar and Xel-Naga Caverns. However, the meta-game has now shifted and these types of builds are becoming less effective. With the prevalence of Zergs opening gas-less 3hatch roach/ling or “Stephano Style”, Protoss players are immediately suspicious if they scout early gas. They will most often respond by chronoboosting sentries or producing 1-2 additional cannons, which shuts down 1-2 base baneling busts. The thing that makes this build so genius is the opening resembles a 3-hatch roach macro style, so it doesn't give your protoss opponent any reason to build additional defenses:
5-6 Banelings and 25+ Speedlings arrive at opponent's base at 7:15
As long as you don't allow him to scout your gas or streaming zerglings, this an excellent way to catch a protoss player off guard and bust before warpgates or stargates finish.
Note: The opening you choose should resemble a standard Zerg macro build. Most variations of pool first into 3 hatcheries are acceptable, but here is how Zenio does it assuming a 1-pylon block at natural:
9Overlord 14Pool 15Overlord 15Drone 16Queen (Inject first, tumour second, then all injects) 18 2x Lings (Keep 1 at natural to deny scouting of your main) 20 Gas (As soon as probe is down the ramp) 19-21 Drones 21 Hatchery 20 Drone 21 Overlord 21-26 Drones 26 3rd Base (4:45-5:00) 25 Zergling speed (First 100 Gas) 27 Baneling Nest (Next 50 gas) 26-31 Zerglings 31 Overlord 31+ Zerglings / Banelings.
If you're testing this build, you should have just enough gas for 5-6 banelings and 25~ Lings with speed by roughly 7:15.
Note: While the following timings are based off Zenio vs nAniwa on GSL Terminus SE and may vary slightly from game to game, the majority of timings stay the same regardless of minor things you change early on (Like pool timing, natural timing) http://drop.sc/124072
3:15-3:20 – When your lings come out and chase probe away from the main, you immediately start a gas (This is the only gas you build all game).
4:40 – Zenio lays on tumour at edge of creep and moves his single queen to expansion. With the creep connecting the bases, it becomes easier to deny probes scouting the gas geyser. Also, you should transfer your queen down to the expansion because any protoss who scouts that zerg has 3 hatcheries and a queen injecting at the expansion will likely assume business as usual.
5:00 – In order to resemble a 3base macro style (Like Stephano's 3hatch Roach/ling) the third base must be started by 5:00. Zergling speed should also be researching by now too.
5:15/5:30 Baneling nest can be started in the main.
5:45 - Cut drones, all zergling production. Make sure you have supply to 44.
6:40-7:00 – Make sure you have all three hatcheries hotkeyed and rallied. Morph in banelings and get in the habit of hotkeying your lings and banelings in a separate control group.
7:00-7:20 Lead with banelings and bust the front. Aim for any pylons or zealots that are part of the wall, or go for the forge.
1) Exchange pleasantries with your opponents, keep it friendly!
2) Open pool first. Choose whichever version you're most familiar with (11,14,15. Zenio does 14)
3) Take a hatch as fast as you can. If he doesn't pylon block you, get a hatch up as early as 16 before the overlord (If you prefer, you can wait at 15 or 16 supply to build an overlord, queen, and 2 sets of lings before your natural).
4) Start your queen and 2 sets of lings, standard macro ZvP so far.
5) As soon as your lings have chased the probe down the ramp, start your gas.
6) Keep chasing that probe, you don't want him to scout your earlier-than-usual gas.
7) Squeeze out a few drones before you take your 3rd (but start it by 5min at the latest)
8) Make sure you only build one queen to inject (optional 1 tumour). Also fill gas asap.
9) You can't stop the probe from scouting your 3rd, and in fact you prefer that he does scout it.
10) Start zergling speed ASAP (4:45-5:00)
11) Use your next 50 gas to start your baneling nest, around 26, 27 supply or 5:15/5:30)
12) Cut drones at or before the 6minute mark (26~ supply) then make all zerglings. Make sure you have overlords, set the rally point, and move your initial lings out to take the xel naga. You need map control at this stage so he doesn't scout all your lings streaming.
13) Use 4-6 lings to surround if he has one zealot. If he has a stalker, avoid engaging it without speed.
14) Morph banelings outside the range of the xel naga towers but as close as possible to opponent's natural.
15) Once speed is complete, the cover is blown so there is no longer a reason to hide your zerglings. Set the rally closer, get your banelings moving, and use you speedlings to scout the front and kill vulnerable Protoss units.
16) Lead the banelings into weaknesses in the wall (Pylons, cannons). Remember forges have less HP than Cyber/Gateway.
17) Once you break a hole, swarm in with lings and set rally inside the expansion.
18) Split zerglings into the main and natural, go for probes, units, and any important pylons.
Q: I was personally wondering if it is possible to have enough sentries to hold the ramp from the banelings. Would toss try and hold this off with zealot sentry? If so, what kind of transitions would we be looking at in the position we're in? In the Day9 Daily, Zenio goes into a mutalisk strategy, would roaches be the better transition?
A: It's absolutely possible to hold if you have 2+ sentries and you build additional cannons / buildings if necessary to complete the wall. I think you would have to continuously chrono-boost sentries with 3 cannons to defend. Defending this requires scouting the quantity of lings that the Zerg is producing as early as possible.
Q: How can protoss players defend this?
A: You gotta scout it or die. Every FFE build either has pressure or opens up sentries. If you open up sentries, you're in a decent position. If you open up a pressure build, you should know something is up as soon as your units die to speedlings. There's no reason to have speedlings at that timing when you go 3 hatch other than either a ling runby or a baneling bust. Then I would reinforce my wall with gateways, add cannons, and chrono sentries. Cross my fingers and hope for the best.(Thanks to NrGMonk for submitting this answer)
Please suggest discussion questions and I will add to this section.
4 - Solid Guide, good analysis, pretty helpful (16)
11%
1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports. (9)
6%
3- Average Guide, probably going to help some people. (4)
3%
2 - Some helpful material, but overall not very informative (1)
1%
140 total votes
Your vote: Do you find the content, structure, and style of this guide effective?
(Vote): 5 - Excellent Guide, concise information, extremely helpful (Vote): 4 - Solid Guide, good analysis, pretty helpful (Vote): 3- Average Guide, probably going to help some people. (Vote): 2 - Some helpful material, but overall not very informative (Vote): 1 - There is nothing to be learned from you, Tang. You're ruining eSports.
Thank you all very much for reading! Please do not hesitate to comment with any suggestions about how I can improve the quality of this and future guides.
Do you all think this could be a build used in response to certain scouting information, or just a blind meta-game tactic? (Not implying a blind meta-game tactic is necessarily a bad thing).
On April 22 2012 05:40 Yamulo wrote: If they don't see the third it might not be advisable to do this. You got this from the Zenio naniwa series right?
Yes I did, though I have seen him use the build in other games. One of the cool aspects of this build is if you start speed with your first hundred gas, and scout to find the protoss is playing VERY defensive (3+ cannons early) you could just do a with-speed version of the Stephano style instead of going for the bust. It's only an all-in commitment once you start streaming lings.
Thorough guide Tang I was personally wondering if it is possible to have enough sentries to hold the ramp from the banelings. Would toss try and hold this off with zealot sentry? If so, what kind of transitions would we be looking at in the position we're in? In the Day9 Daily, Zenio goes into a mutalisk strategy, would roaches be the better transition?
Do you pull drones off gas after the initial 350 or so for speed/nest/6 banes? Because if you do, I guess you can venture into a macro game even if you don't kill your opponent, obviously you need to do some damage though.
On April 22 2012 05:45 Andromedan wrote: Thorough guide Tang I was personally wondering if it is possible to have enough sentries to hold the ramp from the banelings. Would toss try and hold this off with zealot sentry? If so, what kind of transitions would we be looking at in the position we're in? In the Day9 Daily, Zenio goes into a mutalisk strategy, would roaches be the better transition?
It's absolutely possible to hold if you have 2+ sentries and you build additional cannons / buildings if necessary to complete the wall. I think you would have to continuously chrono-boost sentries with 3 cannons to defend.
On April 22 2012 05:47 Host- wrote: Do you pull drones off gas after the initial 350 or so for speed/nest/6 banes? Because if you do, I guess you can venture into a macro game even if you don't kill your opponent, obviously you need to do some damage though.
I've used it as a make-it or break-it build so far, and haven't had success with macro transitions. I think you would have to kill the natural or at all least the probes at the natural to even it out. You do have a 3rd base, but with only 1 queen and about 20-24 Drones, you're in pretty dire straights against a secure 2base protoss.
I have been meaning to learn an allin that can keep my opponent honest in a several match series. This could be what I was looking for I will have to try it out
Is the third really necessary? Couldn't you just cut the third for a second queen plus 150 extra mins? I've seen Idra do something similar, in the recent series v symbol. This was a z v z game; I mention it because he had a similar comp, slightly earlier, off 2 hatch, and he wasn't even all-in, so if you want to go all in it would seem like you could do it off two bases.
If the third is a necessary feint, to keep him from preppping for the bust, could you maybe just cancel once he scouts it?
This is an improvement over the other guides, credit to you for that. The bit of analysis on how the map effects the build is a good addition. I'm on my phone and can't check, what patch are the pro replays from and what patch are your replays from?
On April 22 2012 06:04 rikter wrote: Is the third really necessary? Couldn't you just cut the third for a second queen plus 150 extra mins? I've seen Idra do something similar, in the recent series v symbol. This was a z v z game; I mention it because he had a similar comp, slightly earlier, off 2 hatch, and he wasn't even all-in, so if you want to go all in it would seem like you could do it off two bases.
If the third is a necessary feint, to keep him from preppping for the bust, could you maybe just cancel once he scouts it?
This is an improvement over the other guides, credit to you for that. The bit of analysis on how the map effects the build is a good addition. I'm on my phone and can't check, what patch are the pro replays from and what patch are your replays from?
Cutting the 3rd would be too suspicious, you want the protoss player to scout that. I think it is best to let it finish, for the larva/metagame/potential macro transition.
The pro replay is a bit older, at least a season or 2 ago. My replays are mostly from this season.
Edit: If you cancel your 3rd, you have no way to deny his scouting that you've done so because speed won't be done for a while.
i play with this alot, i like GLsnutes variation much better though, u get gas at 21 and second gas around 32 supply u end up morphing like 20blings, its just as hard to scout , if u see aggressive scouting u can still keep a drone at 3rd and make hatch, then cancel it when scouts gone.
with that many blings u can destroy forge and gateway too with good positioning
i have several replays of it if anyone's interested
On April 22 2012 06:26 qwertyindeed wrote: i play with this alot, i like GLsnutes variation much better though, u get gas at 21 and second gas around 32 supply u end up morphing like 20blings, its just as hard to scout , if u see aggressive scouting u can still keep a drone at 3rd and make hatch, then cancel it when scouts gone.
with that many blings u can destroy forge and gateway too with good positioning
i have several replays of it if anyone's interested
Absolutely, I'd love to view those reps qwerty, sounds interesting.
doesnt toss have 2 sentries at that time? or is this just a metagame thing vs zealot stalker stalker pressure (vs which this build is an instawin i think ;-))
On April 22 2012 06:38 Decendos wrote: doesnt toss have 2 sentries at that time? or is this just a metagame thing vs zealot stalker stalker pressure (vs which this build is an instawin i think ;-))
Well so many players chrono-boost out zealots now to pressure the 3rd. Fewer and fewer are going straight Zealot --> Sentry --> Sentry
http://drop.sc/164768 with hatch 1st on shakuras- which is better- ---- http://drop.sc/164767 executed better then 1st-note:always take your 1st gas away form ramp since the probe may get in ur main and u need to hit it with ur queen near ur ramp. ---- http://drop.sc/164766 he makes like 4 cannons for some reason-it doesnt help-best execution of the 3, blings ready by 8min --- all 3 cases there was like 2-3 setnries but toss has like a split second to react so u will have a better chance with this then 5blings since u will take down forge and the 2 pylons powering the large ramps on those maps
Note:dont make more lings at around the 45-55 supply even if u have the money- u want the minerals and gas to match when morphing the blings, after moprhing, take the 6 off gas and continue to the more lings
On April 22 2012 06:53 Sspinner wrote: is this really better than hitting with 8 roaches and the same amount of speedlings 1 minute later?
Yes because this build looks like a standard 3 hatch, whilst a roach-ling all-in is much easier to scout.
You can also do roach-ling all-in with the 3rd hatch and only one queen, but it is weaker because you need the money for the roaches earlier than you would need the money for the banelings. Hitting a full minute later can be potentially disastrous because warpgate will be complete, but you'll still kill him if he played overly greedy.
The 3 hatch baneling bust is brutal. It's all-in and it's cheese. It's mostly blind. I have on rare rare occasions cancelled my 2nd queen and double gassed in response to scouting a very weak wall, but normally you have to commit to it before seeing anything.
It's a great build for keeping people honest. You'll notice that when zenio does this, his opponent always builds a few more cannons against him next time they play, just in case.
On April 22 2012 06:53 Sspinner wrote: is this really better than hitting with 8 roaches and the same amount of speedlings 1 minute later?
I would argue yes, because it's not necessarily about maximizing the amount of units you have. The build is designed to take advantage of the window before Warp Gate completes.
On April 22 2012 05:28 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: You really need to leran how to play man.
You need to learn how to spell. His guides are based off of successful pros. If you can do better than these pros, then you have the right to verbally destroy this guide. Otherwise, you can use the guide to learn the build and also how to scout and counter the build.
On April 22 2012 05:28 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: You really need to leran how to play man.
You need to learn how to spell. His guides are based off of successful pros. If you can do better than these pros, then you have the right to verbally destroy this guide. Otherwise, you can use the guide to learn the build and also how to scout and counter the build.
Oh come on >_> You guys need to watch the replay before attacking me T_T It was something his opponent said, I was just making fun of him. Jesus EDIT: 4 posts away from 1k!!
On April 22 2012 06:26 qwertyindeed wrote: i play with this alot, i like GLsnutes variation much better though, u get gas at 21 and second gas around 32 supply u end up morphing like 20blings, its just as hard to scout , if u see aggressive scouting u can still keep a drone at 3rd and make hatch, then cancel it when scouts gone.
with that many blings u can destroy forge and gateway too with good positioning
i have several replays of it if anyone's interested
Have to agree with this, I'm a much bigger fan of the 2gas version.
The 1gas version really gives you one go at it. If you don't break through you're kind of screwed. I didn't watch the replay but in those pictures you have you do not have enough banelings if your opponent had walled with all gateways/forge, which is instant GG.
Nerchio did this build recently (same as Zenio version) and got absolutely slaughtered when he walked in with banes and realized he could only hit the forge, cyber core or gateway. He couldn't even take down the wall.
2gas version I like a lot more - you trade some lings for some banes, but banes are a lot more useful if you're going to all-in anyway
EDIT: I remember seeing Sen do it to InControl once (I think NASL Season 2? Can't remember) using 2gas as well. But he did a 2base version though.
On April 22 2012 06:26 qwertyindeed wrote: i play with this alot, i like GLsnutes variation much better though, u get gas at 21 and second gas around 32 supply u end up morphing like 20blings, its just as hard to scout , if u see aggressive scouting u can still keep a drone at 3rd and make hatch, then cancel it when scouts gone.
with that many blings u can destroy forge and gateway too with good positioning
i have several replays of it if anyone's interested
Have to agree with this, I'm a much bigger fan of the 2gas version.
The 1gas version really gives you one go at it. If you don't break through you're kind of screwed. I didn't watch the replay but in those pictures you have you do not have enough banelings if your opponent had walled with all gateways/forge, which is instant GG.
I'd have to see more replays of the 2gas version, I'm not too familiar with the specifics of the tradeoff.
However, in the game Zenio played against Naniwa, Zenio went right for the forge with 5-6 banes then finished it off with Zerglings in a matter of seconds. Also, he continued to morph a few banes at a time, but you never get to 8+ banes to actually bust right through a larger building - it's definitely more zergling-centric.
This is a b/o win against stuff like 8 gate where they play super greedy until they are ready to hit a timing. It's not as good against 4 gate +1 zealot or sentry into 3rd base builds, though.
I always open 11 Overpool into three hatch to punish really greedyy tosses, and I camp their ramp with the lings if I don't get in to actually prevent them from knowing what I do, because they don't even see my nat with the overpool. However, I might just as well pull back to the ramp of my nat with the lings to prevent them scouting my nat, but letting them scout the third, producing all other lings in my main until the last moment.
However, seeing your replays, your Banenest seems to be too early, you could be mining with that drone for at least 20 more seconds because you never build the lings when your Nest pops, especially since ling speed is at least 20sec away.
Although maps are moving away from small chokes at the natural, how would this work on a map like Shakuras where you can do a forge/gate/cyber wall off, with no pylons or space in the wall? Do you break down the forge with the banes and hope the lings finish it off?
Tang does say this build should be used on maps where you can't use 3 large buildings to block.
Nice guide Tang, though as a Protoss player I'm now going to have to set a large bounty on your head. I guess I'll have to start looping around and scouting the main at around 4:00 to see the gas, and use my Zealot to scout for a third, since there's no way I'll make it out of the main. Not sure if that'll work at high levels, but it should work at my level.
On April 22 2012 05:40 Yamulo wrote: If they don't see the third it might not be advisable to do this. You got this from the Zenio naniwa series right?
Yes I did, though I have seen him use the build in other games. One of the cool aspects of this build is if you start speed with your first hundred gas, and scout to find the protoss is playing VERY defensive (3+ cannons early) you could just do a with-speed version of the Stephano style instead of going for the bust. It's only an all-in commitment once you start streaming lings.
Day9 did a daily on this!!! I remember seeing it...
Im asking myself if it's possible to use this as an "semi" all-in Build against FFE, cause i just saw Destiny got crushed against toss playing FFE into 4 Gate +1 pressure and he just had no chance against it, when his 3rd was up he had nothing to deal with that amount of Zealots/Stalker/Sentrys and this seems very common in the current PvZ and what else does Zergs than 3 Bases before Gas? Nothing in my opinion cause your forced to all-in against FFE and pray for a win or go for a macro game. But i don't like gambling.
So i thought you can use Zenio's 3 Hatch all-in only to cripple the Protoss way enough while keep updroning without being that far behind him? Mean's you kick his forge and more or less probes so he can't proceed with his timing attack pressure and your able to get even your 3rd running and just a better eco while he must get back into his game and before he can do some serious damage you will have enough roach/lings/whatever just in time before the toss can do so?
That's just in my mind but hopeing for some opinions
On April 22 2012 13:04 KrakInDub wrote: Im asking myself if it's possible to use this as an "semi" all-in Build against FFE, cause i just saw Destiny got crushed against toss playing FFE into 4 Gate +1 pressure and he just had no chance against it, when his 3rd was up he had nothing to deal with that amount of Zealots/Stalker/Sentrys and this seems very common in the current PvZ and what else does Zergs than 3 Bases before Gas? Nothing in my opinion cause your forced to all-in against FFE and pray for a win or go for a macro game. But i don't like gambling.
You can hold 4 gate zealots +1 just fine with 3 hatch before gas, just as long as you take gas at 40 or before and make roaches as soon as you have the gas to.
Also, dear Tang, could you elaborate on why you would attack that early?
It's not like he has much more stuff at 8:00 or 8:30 than he would at 7:15 when scouting three bases. And it wouldn't be as much of an allin then? The advantage of hitting at 7:15 is that warpgate tech is not done... but he wouldn't have enough gates to profit from it at 8:00, either... only that probably a single Void could be out if he went 1stargate.
I normally never post on TL, but I couldn't resist this time. I want to thank you for your kickass guides on being an agressive-pain-in-the-ass Zerg (nomnomnom). You made my ZvZ fun and understandable again, you gave me a clear guide to 3base ZvP and now a horrificly fantastic ZvP all-in guide.
Your guides are well written, give me a clear understanding of what to do in different situations and most importantly, give me builds that make SC2 a lot of fun for me, an evil bastard.
Nevermind all the haters and dirtdiggers! Please keep up this amazing work! I look forward to your future guides and especially ZvT, because that's the only matchup I'm having trouble with, thanks to you!
On April 22 2012 11:53 schmutttt wrote: Just a question, what are 5 banelings going to bust if he doesn't have a pylon/cannon as part of the wall?
Generally you would go through the forge, since it has less hp/shields than the gateway/cyber.
A note here: this build only works if you are going to bust through a Pylon. If you have to go through a Forge, you need to wait until you have 10 Banelings. Usually that means you have to get a second gas right after you put down a Baneling nest.
On April 22 2012 11:53 schmutttt wrote: Just a question, what are 5 banelings going to bust if he doesn't have a pylon/cannon as part of the wall?
Generally you would go through the forge, since it has less hp/shields than the gateway/cyber.
A note here: this build only works if you are going to bust through a Pylon. If you have to go through a Forge, you need to wait until you have 10 Banelings. Usually that means you have to get a second gas right after you put down a Baneling nest.
I think it's better to do like Zenio did against naniwa in the first replay example: Take the 5-6 banes into the forge and then use zerglings to finish it off.
On April 22 2012 11:53 schmutttt wrote: Just a question, what are 5 banelings going to bust if he doesn't have a pylon/cannon as part of the wall?
Generally you would go through the forge, since it has less hp/shields than the gateway/cyber.
A note here: this build only works if you are going to bust through a Pylon. If you have to go through a Forge, you need to wait until you have 10 Banelings. Usually that means you have to get a second gas right after you put down a Baneling nest.
I think it's better to do like Zenio did against naniwa in the first replay example: Take the 5-6 banes into the forge and then use zerglings to finish it off.
Also on most maps that can't be walled off by 3 large buildings (like shakuras) this build is especially potent
As a tournament / BOX build, I can see this having some value.
As an exclusive ladder player, however, I just don't see doing something like this increasing my winrate compared to playing the standard roach/ling style unless I see the protoss being exceptionally greedy and / or walled retardedly. What are you thoughts?
(Also, lol @ the BM from the replay with ILOVECHICKS)
On April 23 2012 14:32 LazinCajun wrote: As a tournament / BOX build, I can see this having some value.
As an exclusive ladder player, however, I just don't see doing something like this increasing my winrate compared to playing the standard roach/ling style unless I see the protoss being exceptionally greedy and / or walled retardedly. What are you thoughts?
(Also, lol @ the BM from the replay with ILOVECHICKS)
I've experienced a pretty nice winrate with this style, about 80%. Surely this will change eventually, but I think it's a deadly build in the current meta-game.
On April 23 2012 14:32 LazinCajun wrote: As a tournament / BOX build, I can see this having some value.
As an exclusive ladder player, however, I just don't see doing something like this increasing my winrate compared to playing the standard roach/ling style unless I see the protoss being exceptionally greedy and / or walled retardedly. What are you thoughts?
(Also, lol @ the BM from the replay with ILOVECHICKS)
I've experienced a pretty nice winrate with this style, about 80%. Surely this will change eventually, but I think it's a deadly build in the current meta-game.
Thanks for the build. Had great success with this since most toss these day skip the sentry and get a fast zealot or either tech when they scout your 3rd and natural.
On April 23 2012 14:32 LazinCajun wrote: As a tournament / BOX build, I can see this having some value.
As an exclusive ladder player, however, I just don't see doing something like this increasing my winrate compared to playing the standard roach/ling style unless I see the protoss being exceptionally greedy and / or walled retardedly. What are you thoughts?
(Also, lol @ the BM from the replay with ILOVECHICKS)
I've experienced a pretty nice winrate with this style, about 80%. Surely this will change eventually, but I think it's a deadly build in the current meta-game.
Thanks for the build. Had great success with this since most toss these day skip the sentry and get a fast zealot or either tech when they scout your 3rd and natural.
Yeah the majority of protoss players will not stop scouting until they see you've taken 3 bases - they really have no reason not to scout, since probes can outrun slow lings.
Lol at the censoring with the motivational words, but anyways ya this was an extremely helpful guide and i will be using it probably quite a lot against my practice partners and on ladder, cheers!
On April 24 2012 05:17 kmillz wrote: What are things to look for the Protoss doing that would make you want to abandon ship on this plan and transition into something different?
This is a great question. The games that I've lost while using this style were my fault. I've accidently revealed my lings, botched the execution of the bust, allowed him to scout my main gas geyser, or some other mistake. The only scouting information I can think of that would convince me not to go for the bust is seeing that the first unit Protoss creates after the cyber core is a chrono-boosted sentry AND he built 3+ cannons despite scouting my 3rd base (Rare to see that many cannons against fast 3rd Zerg).
On April 22 2012 18:33 Mahtasooma wrote: Also, dear Tang, could you elaborate on why you would attack that early?
It's not like he has much more stuff at 8:00 or 8:30 than he would at 7:15 when scouting three bases. And it wouldn't be as much of an allin then? The advantage of hitting at 7:15 is that warpgate tech is not done... but he wouldn't have enough gates to profit from it at 8:00, either... only that probably a single Void could be out if he went 1stargate.
He doesn't need that many gates to "profit". At 8:00, he should have warpgate and at least 4 gates, which will allow him to maintain constant forcefields to close the hole your banelings busted. At 7:15, he's stuck with the sentries that he built, which should run out of forcefields unless he chrono-boosted them out.
On April 22 2012 18:33 Mahtasooma wrote: Also, dear Tang, could you elaborate on why you would attack that early?
It's not like he has much more stuff at 8:00 or 8:30 than he would at 7:15 when scouting three bases. And it wouldn't be as much of an allin then? The advantage of hitting at 7:15 is that warpgate tech is not done... but he wouldn't have enough gates to profit from it at 8:00, either... only that probably a single Void could be out if he went 1stargate.
He doesn't need that many gates to "profit". At 8:00, he should have warpgate and at least 4 gates, which will allow him to maintain constant forcefields to close the hole your banelings busted. At 7:15, he's stuck with the sentries that he built, which should run out of forcefields unless he chrono-boosted them out.
That's my take on it too. There are protoss builds that constantly chrono-boost warpgate tech to get early 4gates, so hitting much later than 7:15 risks him being able to warp in additional Zealots/sentries. The 7:15 timing hits before WG and also usually before many sentries (if any at all, sometimes players skip them).
I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
then you have nothing going for you.
Looking at it from a Protoss view, the only tell is, like you say seeing the lings, or spotting a lack of drones and possibly early gas. The scouting probe(s) should be cleared up so in effect, the P player is seeing a standard 3rd hatch reaction to an FFE with serious droning about to occur.
If the P player sees more than 2-6 lings, its an obvious all-in and should be prepared for as such. If he sees a pack of lings, he will forcefield and flex.
On April 24 2012 17:54 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Here we go again.
Who is next in line for you to copy, Tang? Sen? DRG? Idra?
At least he is crediting the players who created / popularized the builds now and isn't just presenting builds that were literally figured out in the beta anymore. This isn't even close to as silly as the protoss players here who post +1 zealot timings into blink stalker all-ins and name them after themselves.
lol look at the first four pages of this topic, so many posters with very few total posts that supposedly praise this topic. and some have only 1 post lol.
Tang, stop making many accounts to bump up your all-in guides.
just by the title I knew it was made by tang, sick stuff man continue your "aggresive style" maybe u'll get gm this season?
You should make a guid witch really gonna help players, all-in is not the style of zerg, pros do that sometimes cuz at their level theirs alots of mind games, and they trick their opponents to tilt them. Make a good macro guide and ill be sold, not a 3 base maxout guide, just pure macro guide at timings on your opennent gas and what it means. I got many ideas for you, the 15min min broodlord drg build, opening with a quick 4 queens to deny helion, theres alot you can make and witch really gonna help the community.
On April 24 2012 21:10 Bellazuk wrote: just by the title I knew it was made by tang, sick stuff man continue your "aggresive style" maybe u'll get gm this season?
You should make a guid witch really gonna help players, all-in is not the style of zerg, pros do that sometimes cuz at their level theirs alots of mind games, and they trick their opponents to tilt them. Make a good macro guide and ill be sold, not a 3 base maxout guide, just pure macro guide at timings on your opennent gas and what it means. I got many ideas for you, the 15min min broodlord drg build, opening with a quick 4 queens to deny helion, theres alot you can make and witch really gonna help the community.
Personally I find these a breath of fresh air where I have my two stable builds per matchup, and would like to add an all-in to my repertoire. I don't see why this is such a problem for you, there are plenty of long term macro guides out there. If all-ins didn't exist, solid macro play would just be..... macro play. Might as well play 10min norush.
You want me to compare this guide to your post? At least tang can represent himself decently, you can't even go three words without making a spelling mistake or grammatical error.
On April 24 2012 21:10 Bellazuk wrote: just by the title I knew it was made by tang, sick stuff man continue your "aggresive style" maybe u'll get gm this season?
You should make a guid witch really gonna help players, all-in is not the style of zerg, pros do that sometimes cuz at their level theirs alots of mind games, and they trick their opponents to tilt them.
I got many ideas for you, the 15min min broodlord drg build, opening with a quick 4 queens to deny helion, theres alot you can make and witch really gonna help the community.
The argument I try to make is that there is no "style of zerg". Yes, macro-oriented styles have dominated the NA server for a long time, but the scout-and-respond style of Zerg has never been my personal preference. I like to dictate the pace of the game by executing timing attacks, or at least some form of constant-pressure.
I do understand the importance of macro, but I approach it differently than others - that's why I don't write guides on builds like the 15min broodlord of DRG, because it's not the type of build that I use very often. If you have some replays though, I could practice with it and maybe do a guide on the macro-broodlord ZvT down the road. Thanks for the suggestions!
On April 24 2012 21:10 Bellazuk wrote: just by the title I knew it was made by tang, sick stuff man continue your "aggresive style" maybe u'll get gm this season?
You should make a guid witch really gonna help players, all-in is not the style of zerg, pros do that sometimes cuz at their level theirs alots of mind games, and they trick their opponents to tilt them.
I got many ideas for you, the 15min min broodlord drg build, opening with a quick 4 queens to deny helion, theres alot you can make and witch really gonna help the community.
The argument I try to make is that there is no "style of zerg". Yes, macro-oriented styles have dominated the NA server for a long time, but the scout-and-respond style of Zerg has never been my personal preference. I like to dictate the pace of the game by executing timing attacks, or at least some form of constant-pressure.
I do understand the importance of macro, but I approach it differently than others - that's why I don't write guides on builds like the 15min broodlord of DRG, because it's not the type of build that I use very often. If you have some replays though, I could practice with it and maybe do a guide on the macro-broodlord ZvT down the road. Thanks for the suggestions!
I'll find them and zip them and send them back to you, thanks btw, seems your really open-minded
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
then you have nothing going for you.
could you post replays of your lack of success? I've always had massive success with this type of build. I was doing 3 hatch roach ling all-ins for a while even before seeing zenio do the 3 hatch baneling, and I tried that as well. I stopped doing these builds because I was forgetting how to play a macro game against protoss, because winning was too easy. Hiding it isn't difficult and every protoss is reluctant to build 6 cannons at just a slight suspicion because they saw two more zerglings or fewer drones at the natural or something.
It's cheese but it is a powerful tool that should be used to keep protoss honest. FFE with 1 cannon and 1 sentry is unbelievably greedy. Most protoss don't even make that sentry anymore. P needs to scout harder to be sure that they are safe. If other people are using this cheese build maybe it means protoss will play more cautiously and their timings won't be as powerful against the macro zergs.
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
then you have nothing going for you.
It is a timing attack, so it has to be on time and you can't give it away that you're doing it. As long as you're hitting by about 7:15, they shouldn't have too many sentries though.
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
then you have nothing going for you.
It is a timing attack, so it has to be on time and you can't give it away that you're doing it. As long as you're hitting by about 7:15, they shouldn't have too many sentries though.
It's important to note that if you scout your opponent blind countering you, it'd be better to not commit at all to an attack. IMO merely getting speed early is enough of an indication to any protoss that you are being cheesy, because otherwise it hurts your economy pretty bad. Part of why it worked for zenio is that he was doing 2 base hydra builds in all his other ZvPs and that build looked very similar, which made it hard for people to scout him.
Nice to see a 3-hatch bane bust build, I need those so badly in BoX ^.^
However, I do not understand your choice of busted building. Why go for the forge ? Isn't taking out the cyber core/gateway more crippling ? And why not try to bring down two buildings with the bane splash ?
Hey Tang, I'm curious what your thoughts are on Zenio's 3 hatch ling hydra---> corruptor/roach featured on day9? I'm a little torn on it right now since going hydra does not directly feed into the infestor/brood/lingbaneling techtree. If I'm going for a defensive style towards high tech, stephano mass spines seems like it leads to an easier transition.
On April 25 2012 05:27 ArcticRaven wrote: Nice to see a 3-hatch bane bust build, I need those so badly in BoX ^.^
However, I do not understand your choice of busted building. Why go for the forge ? Isn't taking out the cyber core/gateway more crippling ? And why not try to bring down two buildings with the bane splash ?
the goal is to get behind the wall as fast as possible with as many remaining units as possible, and the forge has the least amount of hit points.
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
then you have nothing going for you.
could you post replays of your lack of success? I've always had massive success with this type of build. I was doing 3 hatch roach ling all-ins for a while even before seeing zenio do the 3 hatch baneling, and I tried that as well. I stopped doing these builds because I was forgetting how to play a macro game against protoss, because winning was too easy. Hiding it isn't difficult and every protoss is reluctant to build 6 cannons at just a slight suspicion because they saw two more zerglings or fewer drones at the natural or something.
It's cheese but it is a powerful tool that should be used to keep protoss honest. FFE with 1 cannon and 1 sentry is unbelievably greedy. Most protoss don't even make that sentry anymore. P needs to scout harder to be sure that they are safe. If other people are using this cheese build maybe it means protoss will play more cautiously and their timings won't be as powerful against the macro zergs.
if i take the expo out and they have too many zelots, i usually transition to hydras. most toss that have held immediately counter-they dont wait for collasi (usually have stargate and a couple of gateways up)
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
then you have nothing going for you.
could you post replays of your lack of success? I've always had massive success with this type of build. I was doing 3 hatch roach ling all-ins for a while even before seeing zenio do the 3 hatch baneling, and I tried that as well. I stopped doing these builds because I was forgetting how to play a macro game against protoss, because winning was too easy. Hiding it isn't difficult and every protoss is reluctant to build 6 cannons at just a slight suspicion because they saw two more zerglings or fewer drones at the natural or something.
It's cheese but it is a powerful tool that should be used to keep protoss honest. FFE with 1 cannon and 1 sentry is unbelievably greedy. Most protoss don't even make that sentry anymore. P needs to scout harder to be sure that they are safe. If other people are using this cheese build maybe it means protoss will play more cautiously and their timings won't be as powerful against the macro zergs.
if i take the expo out and they have too many zelots, i usually transition to hydras. most toss that have held immediately counter-they dont wait for collasi (usually have stargate and a couple of gateways up)
Remember - this is an all-in build, if you're not having success it might be because you're trying to transition. If you're using this build against Forge Fast Expand, there shouldn't be situations where you would need to transition into hydras.
Can you make a guide using Zenio's 20 gas and his followup (i.e.: skipping the baneling bust but instead going for the hydra/spire)?
I've played around with the style a bit lately and I'm finding it REALLY cool (not having to deal with bs proxy pylons is so nice), though, once the toss is comfortably situated on three bases, I don't really know what to do...and, naturally, Zenio replays are a dime a dozen...
Why is it so looked down upon for Zergs to have strategic THREE BASE allins that play off the current metagame when as soon as someone posts a 1 base Terran build or some FFE followup with no planned transition it's heralded as the second coming of Jesus? I can't tell you how many times I've played vs 1 base Robo on ladder and yet everyone seems to think it's some kind of unholy sin for Zerg to play aggressively at all, even if there's a natural transition out of the build.
On April 25 2012 23:40 ELYSiUMlol wrote: Why is it so looked down upon for Zergs to have strategic THREE BASE allins that play off the current metagame when as soon as someone posts a 1 base Terran build or some FFE followup with no planned transition it's heralded as the second coming of Jesus? I can't tell you how many times I've played vs 1 base Robo on ladder and yet everyone seems to think it's some kind of unholy sin for Zerg to play aggressively at all, even if there's a natural transition out of the build.
Well not everyone feels that way! It's just the way larva/drone mechanics work, zergs tend to like reaching the 3 fully saturated bases as early as possible. Also popular NA pros like IdrA have been advocates of pure-macro style, which is why many think Zerg cannot be aggressive in the early/midgame.
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
then you have nothing going for you.
It is a timing attack, so it has to be on time and you can't give it away that you're doing it. As long as you're hitting by about 7:15, they shouldn't have too many sentries though.
It's important to note that if you scout your opponent blind countering you, it'd be better to not commit at all to an attack. IMO merely getting speed early is enough of an indication to any protoss that you are being cheesy, because otherwise it hurts your economy pretty bad. Part of why it worked for zenio is that he was doing 2 base hydra builds in all his other ZvPs and that build looked very similar, which made it hard for people to scout him.
How does a 2 base build look like a 3 base build? You have to explain that one to me because most protoss players are pretty good at scouting whether the opponent is going 2 base or 3 base now...
On April 25 2012 23:40 ELYSiUMlol wrote: Why is it so looked down upon for Zergs to have strategic THREE BASE allins that play off the current metagame when as soon as someone posts a 1 base Terran build or some FFE followup with no planned transition it's heralded as the second coming of Jesus? I can't tell you how many times I've played vs 1 base Robo on ladder and yet everyone seems to think it's some kind of unholy sin for Zerg to play aggressively at all, even if there's a natural transition out of the build.
Well not everyone feels that way! It's just the way larva/drone mechanics work, zergs tend to like reaching the 3 fully saturated bases as early as possible. Also popular NA pros like IdrA have been advocates of pure-macro style, which is why many think Zerg cannot be aggressive in the early/midgame.
The way zerg larve mechanics work if your all-in fails, you're more all-in than other races. When zergs tried to all-in before, they just randomly sent units into an opponents' base and it usually failed because zerg players were unsure of themselves and early game zerg units tend not to do so well versus random compositions. As the game began to be figured out, other races' builds became more refined and standardized, so it became predictable how many and what units they would have when the all-in hit. This is why, in my opinion, zerg all-ins are only somewhat recent inventions compared to other races' all-ins. Roach ling allin vs ffe, roach hatch cancel all-in vs ffe, baneling all-ins vs ffe, roach ling all-in vs gateway expand, roach ling all-in vs terran, and roach baneling all-in vs terran are all controlled all-ins that have a high chance of working based on scouting.
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries
then you have nothing going for you.
It is a timing attack, so it has to be on time and you can't give it away that you're doing it. As long as you're hitting by about 7:15, they shouldn't have too many sentries though.
It's important to note that if you scout your opponent blind countering you, it'd be better to not commit at all to an attack. IMO merely getting speed early is enough of an indication to any protoss that you are being cheesy, because otherwise it hurts your economy pretty bad. Part of why it worked for zenio is that he was doing 2 base hydra builds in all his other ZvPs and that build looked very similar, which made it hard for people to scout him.
How does a 2 base build look like a 3 base build? You have to explain that one to me because most protoss players are pretty good at scouting whether the opponent is going 2 base or 3 base now...
Zergling speed denies scouting of the third. The gas timing is the same and the protoss is only able to scout the exact same things for both builds, so they can't really tell. The point is that normally protoss would expect an all-in after seeing an early gas and ling speed, but because Zenio was using a macro based hydra build they couldn't just blind counter an all-in after scouting that or they would fall very far behind (which Naniwa in particular did quite a few times against him).
I went back to read the guide and have some more questions.
It seems like if toss just stole a gas with his scouting probe it would be a real issue. You either sacrifice mining to kill assimilator or reveal your early units and tech. Also, won't it be suspiscious when you don't saturate the third? And if you have all the early lings to deny a poke at the third, that in and of itself just screams all-in. Basically, if the guy scouts hard and doesn't just abandon the probe to die it seems like you are in trouble.
If you want to trick protoss, why not stay on two bases to fake the all-in, pressure with a few units and then double expand while toss is gearing up to hold a push that isn't coming?
On April 25 2012 23:40 ELYSiUMlol wrote: Why is it so looked down upon for Zergs to have strategic THREE BASE allins that play off the current metagame when as soon as someone posts a 1 base Terran build or some FFE followup with no planned transition it's heralded as the second coming of Jesus? I can't tell you how many times I've played vs 1 base Robo on ladder and yet everyone seems to think it's some kind of unholy sin for Zerg to play aggressively at all, even if there's a natural transition out of the build.
Well not everyone feels that way! It's just the way larva/drone mechanics work, zergs tend to like reaching the 3 fully saturated bases as early as possible. Also popular NA pros like IdrA have been advocates of pure-macro style, which is why many think Zerg cannot be aggressive in the early/midgame.
Oh, don't worry, I respect your pursuit of a unique playstyle and it's definitely necessary, there needs to be someone that writes guides that actually cater to an aggressive playstyle. It just seems that every time I see one of your threads, there are a bunch of people telling you to learn how to play, despite the fact that they probably 1/1/1 or 1 base robo every other game. I just find it silly.
Thanks for the guide btw, I love this build, 100% success rate so far.
On April 26 2012 08:17 oOOoOphidian wrote: Zergling speed denies scouting of the third. The gas timing is the same and the protoss is only able to scout the exact same things for both builds, so they can't really tell. The point is that normally protoss would expect an all-in after seeing an early gas and ling speed, but because Zenio was using a macro based hydra build they couldn't just blind counter an all-in after scouting that or they would fall very far behind (which Naniwa in particular did quite a few times against him).
That's not true. Ling speed isn't done early enough to deny scouting the 3rd unless you delay your 3rd a long time.
Lazin the probe can scout when it goes down, I'm talking about is he able to verify that the base isn't being saturated with drones? A fast third with poor saturation is likely to be spotted for what it is: an external macro hatch.
On April 26 2012 09:58 rikter wrote: I went back to read the guide and have some more questions.
It seems like if toss just stole a gas with his scouting probe it would be a real issue. You either sacrifice mining to kill assimilator or reveal your early units and tech. Also, won't it be suspiscious when you don't saturate the third? And if you have all the early lings to deny a poke at the third, that in and of itself just screams all-in. Basically, if the guy scouts hard and doesn't just abandon the probe to die it seems like you are in trouble.
If you want to trick protoss, why not stay on two bases to fake the all-in, pressure with a few units and then double expand while toss is gearing up to hold a push that isn't coming?
I don't know if you're here just to stir shit up, but why the heck would protoss be stealing a gas against zerg in any situation, much less a FFE?
If it was that easy pros wouldn't use it. If Protoss does a full scout of the third and it looks normal, he's going to lose his probe, so it's a tradeoff because in most cases scouting the third won't help you.
I'm not trying to stir shit up, I'm just working backwards: this build has weird gas timings. if the 75mins allows you to spot his gas timings and let you know what's coming its probably worth the 75 mins. It might not be done often, but if you are doing this build and someone did steal gas, how would you respond?
I.e. do you pull drones to take it down asap? Do you just take the gas at the natural?
On April 26 2012 09:58 rikter wrote: I went back to read the guide and have some more questions.
It seems like if toss just stole a gas with his scouting probe it would be a real issue. You either sacrifice mining to kill assimilator or reveal your early units and tech. Also, won't it be suspiscious when you don't saturate the third? And if you have all the early lings to deny a poke at the third, that in and of itself just screams all-in. Basically, if the guy scouts hard and doesn't just abandon the probe to die it seems like you are in trouble.
If you want to trick protoss, why not stay on two bases to fake the all-in, pressure with a few units and then double expand while toss is gearing up to hold a push that isn't coming?
There's a reason protoss does not steal Zerg gas - it wouldn't give any valuable information, because a queen and 2-4 lings can kill it in no time. It won't give vision of the other gas geyser and won't stay alive long enough to scout that speed has been researched. In terms of saturating the 3rd, zerg players generally don't start rallying to the 3rd until after the 6min mark (42+ supply, rally the natural to the 3rd) so there's really no indication based on lack of a saturated 3rd. It's usually when protoss moves out with 2-3 zealots to the 3rd that they would notice something is up, but by this time speed is finished and they have VERY limited time to react.
I don't like the idea of faking an all-in off 2 base and then double expanding - it's a completely different build, and not likely to be as effective as this.
Why not just cancel the third after the probe dies or goes away after seeing it?
Maybe just don't take a third once probe leaves (many toss just assume fast third when no gas)? I assume though, the only reason for third is to trick toss, and standard toss will probe scout for third...
And you don't make a 2nd or 3rd queen? Why plant a tumor down if you are all inning anyways. Personally I make queens consecutievely so I never miss an inject but can kay a tumor when third pops, whcih will have the original queen there when it pops, with extra energy for a tumor and inject.
On April 27 2012 14:56 Belial88 wrote: I have a question:
Why not just cancel the third after the probe dies or goes away after seeing it?
Maybe just don't take a third once probe leaves (many toss just assume fast third when no gas)? I assume though, the only reason for third is to trick toss, and standard toss will probe scout for third...
And you don't make a 2nd or 3rd queen? Why plant a tumor down if you are all inning anyways. Personally I make queens consecutievely so I never miss an inject but can kay a tumor when third pops, whcih will have the original queen there when it pops, with extra energy for a tumor and inject.
There's no guarantee he won't send another probe or even the same probe back. Ling speed doesn't finish until about 7:00, so there's no way to deny him scouting the 3rd. Besides, since you're only producing a single queen, the added larva of the 3rd hatch does come into play (and works out quite nicely I might add).
^ okay, just making sure the reason for third is to trick toss. Ill try to cancel third if I kill probe on larger maps or something, and yea, I know you are right you can't really deny the toss from scouting third.
I see what you mean about queens though... what about making 2 queen on 2 base cancelled third if you could get away with cancelling the third?
Do you think making a 2nd queen cuts too much into the timing or strength of the build? Id think that a 2nd queen would come quick enough that it would paid for itself by the time of the push.
On April 28 2012 14:10 Belial88 wrote: ^ okay, just making sure the reason for third is to trick toss. Ill try to cancel third if I kill probe on larger maps or something, and yea, I know you are right you can't really deny the toss from scouting third.
I see what you mean about queens though... what about making 2 queen on 2 base cancelled third if you could get away with cancelling the third?
Do you think making a 2nd queen cuts too much into the timing or strength of the build? Id think that a 2nd queen would come quick enough that it would paid for itself by the time of the push.
It's difficult to afford the second queen and the 3rd base when you are mining gas, and upgrading speed. Getting 225 minerals back from cancelling is too late I think. If you're going to build the 3rd to trick them, just use the larva from it and cut the second queen.
On April 28 2012 14:10 Belial88 wrote: ^ okay, just making sure the reason for third is to trick toss. Ill try to cancel third if I kill probe on larger maps or something, and yea, I know you are right you can't really deny the toss from scouting third.
I see what you mean about queens though... what about making 2 queen on 2 base cancelled third if you could get away with cancelling the third?
Do you think making a 2nd queen cuts too much into the timing or strength of the build? Id think that a 2nd queen would come quick enough that it would paid for itself by the time of the push.
You can't afford the second queen, I've tried a few times. You want to still drone to 26-28 supply just to be able to stream 1queen worth of lings, you'd have to cut drones to get the 2nd queen, which wouldn't help because you don't have the mineral economy to support 2hatch 2queen.
On April 25 2012 23:40 ELYSiUMlol wrote: Why is it so looked down upon for Zergs to have strategic THREE BASE allins that play off the current metagame when as soon as someone posts a 1 base Terran build or some FFE followup with no planned transition it's heralded as the second coming of Jesus? I can't tell you how many times I've played vs 1 base Robo on ladder and yet everyone seems to think it's some kind of unholy sin for Zerg to play aggressively at all, even if there's a natural transition out of the build.
Well not everyone feels that way! It's just the way larva/drone mechanics work, zergs tend to like reaching the 3 fully saturated bases as early as possible. Also popular NA pros like IdrA have been advocates of pure-macro style, which is why many think Zerg cannot be aggressive in the early/midgame.
The way zerg larve mechanics work if your all-in fails, you're more all-in than other races. When zergs tried to all-in before, they just randomly sent units into an opponents' base and it usually failed because zerg players were unsure of themselves and early game zerg units tend not to do so well versus random compositions. As the game began to be figured out, other races' builds became more refined and standardized, so it became predictable how many and what units they would have when the all-in hit. This is why, in my opinion, zerg all-ins are only somewhat recent inventions compared to other races' all-ins. Roach ling allin vs ffe, roach hatch cancel all-in vs ffe, baneling all-ins vs ffe, roach ling all-in vs gateway expand, roach ling all-in vs terran, and roach baneling all-in vs terran are all controlled all-ins that have a high chance of working based on scouting.
Hm, that's a pretty interesting way to look at it. I mean a lot of the ZvT all-ins tend to get shut down if the Terran has scouted it or they blindly went for fast Siege Tanks, something you rarely see in the current metagame. Yet back when the game was young random compositions involving Siege Tanks were rather common if I recall. In other words, the more refined players and their builds get the more their opponents are able to exploit their predictability.
The " This is why, in my opinion, zerg all-ins are only somewhat recent inventions compared to other races' all-ins" comment reminds me what david kim said of Toss: He said that Toss innovation was really far behind Z/T, because they were 1 and 2 base warp gate all-inning most of the time. After wg was slightly nerfed, Toss started to innovate more, but they are much further behind than the other 2 races.
Which is kind of cool. Kind of re-affirms what a lot of people had been saying, that Toss just weren't as innovative as the other races, to which many toss would just derp and rabidly defend their race.
So the macro race, zerg, has innovated a lot, but doesn't have much in terms of all-ins because they have stuck to macro for so long, and the all-in race is behind. And then T is just way ahead in terms of innovation... i guess a combination of macro being so rewarding due to mules, and the variety of options T has compared to other races.
I mean toss is still all-inning a lot. Genius all-inned in what, like 4/5 of his games against drg, and immortal/sentry is a relatively new all-in strat P are using.
On April 29 2012 19:35 Belial88 wrote: you two are so meta.
The " This is why, in my opinion, zerg all-ins are only somewhat recent inventions compared to other races' all-ins" comment reminds me what david kim said of Toss: He said that Toss innovation was really far behind Z/T, because they were 1 and 2 base warp gate all-inning most of the time. After wg was slightly nerfed, Toss started to innovate more, but they are much further behind than the other 2 races.
Which is kind of cool. Kind of re-affirms what a lot of people had been saying, that Toss just weren't as innovative as the other races, to which many toss would just derp and rabidly defend their race.
So the macro race, zerg, has innovated a lot, but doesn't have much in terms of all-ins because they have stuck to macro for so long, and the all-in race is behind. And then T is just way ahead in terms of innovation... i guess a combination of macro being so rewarding due to mules, and the variety of options T has compared to other races.
I mean toss is still all-inning a lot. Genius all-inned in what, like 4/5 of his games against drg, and immortal/sentry is a relatively new all-in strat P are using.
I would agree, there's so much talk about races being over/underpowered, but I think it's more a matter of races being underdeveloped. There are so many possible strategies/responses that haven't even been touched, so to say one race has an advantage over the other really only takes into consideration the current metagame.
You guys are spot on in saying that the races are undeveloped.
My personal pet peeve/best example of this is all the players who refuse to use the Terran Infestor. Wait, Terran Infestor? What? Yes, Terran Infestor, or as it is known in-game "Raven".
Consider....
Infestor
Fungal Growth: AOE, prevents movement, forces micro Infested Terran: Spawns slow moving unit that attacks air and ground Neural Parasite: Negates enemy units by turning them into friendly units Burrowed Movement: Allows for sneakiness Force Multiplier: Trading energy for combat units is the height of supply efficiency Without Energy: Completely useless
Raven Seeker Missile: AOE, follows unit for 15s (20s DM), forces micro Auto Turret: Spawns a unit that attacks air and ground that is immobile but lasts longer (even longer with DM) Point Defense Drone: Negates enemy units by deploying a device that absorbs their missile attacks Flys: Allows for sneakiness Force Multiplier: Trades energy for units, supply efficient. Without Energy: Still a Detector providing mobile detection with army, flying at same speed as medivacs.
Now I know that the energy values are a bit different for the spells, but this is because (I believe) of the relative abilities of the 2 races. Example: Infested Terran cost less than auto turret because zerg has no ground units that attack air, Fungal growth costs less than seeker missile because zerg has way lass AOE than Terran and seeker missile does more damage.
Ask any terran player "if you could build infestors like zerg, would you?" and I'm pretty sure the answer would be yes. Terran may not need the Raven abillities as much as Zerg needs infestors, but the Raven is an incredibly useful unit that is underused. I think we will see more Raven play in HotS because burrow move banelings and ultras are going to make mobile detection critically important.
On May 05 2012 00:52 rikter wrote: You guys are spot on in saying that the races are undeveloped.
My personal pet peeve/best example of this is all the players who refuse to use the Terran Infestor. Wait, Terran Infestor? What? Yes, Terran Infestor, or as it is known in-game "Raven".
Consider....
Infestor
Fungal Growth: AOE, prevents movement, forces micro Infested Terran: Spawns slow moving unit that attacks air and ground Neural Parasite: Negates enemy units by turning them into friendly units Burrowed Movement: Allows for sneakiness Force Multiplier: Trading energy for combat units is the height of supply efficiency Without Energy: Completely useless
Raven Seeker Missile: AOE, follows unit for 15s (20s DM), forces micro Auto Turret: Spawns a unit that attacks air and ground that is immobile but lasts longer (even longer with DM) Point Defense Drone: Negates enemy units by deploying a device that absorbs their missile attacks Flys: Allows for sneakiness Force Multiplier: Trades energy for units, supply efficient. Without Energy: Still a Detector providing mobile detection with army, flying at same speed as medivacs.
Now I know that the energy values are a bit different for the spells, but this is because (I believe) of the relative abilities of the 2 races. Example: Infested Terran cost less than auto turret because zerg has no ground units that attack air, Fungal growth costs less than seeker missile because zerg has way lass AOE than Terran and seeker missile does more damage.
Ask any terran player "if you could build infestors like zerg, would you?" and I'm pretty sure the answer would be yes. Terran may not need the Raven abillities as much as Zerg needs infestors, but the Raven is an incredibly useful unit that is underused. I think we will see more Raven play in HotS because burrow move banelings and ultras are going to make mobile detection critically important.
It is very funny to see how some people react when you make a new guide (all in l2p ...). However when someone makes a guide for 10gate zealot+1, he is congratulated... Very sad.
Anyway, why do you want to do this on Ohana and not on shakuras ?
As a Zerg player it's gotten to the point where you can pretty much win every zvp if you feel like it by using one of Tang's builds cause no Protoss plays safely in the first 730 mins.
On May 08 2012 17:52 BriTadeb wrote: It is very funny to see how some people react when you make a new guide (all in l2p ...). However when someone makes a guide for 10gate zealot+1, he is congratulated... Very sad.
Anyway, why do you want to do this on Ohana and not on shakuras ?
I never see players do the Gateway/Forge/Cyber wall in at the top of Ohana like they do on Shakuras, they usually use a Pylon or a Zealot as part of the wall.
On May 29 2012 04:09 PieTaster wrote: How do you adjust this if the protoss walls off with forge gateway and cyber?
Sorry for the delayed response. On maps that can be walled with forge/gate/cyber like Shakuras, you generally wouldn't do a build like this. It's not impossible to break through the forge first (see the game of naniwa) but it just gives them more time to get sentries out.
On June 08 2012 18:40 DarKcS wrote: So...easily scoutable for Toss above diamond league. Guess I won't really be trying this.
How do you figure it's easily scoutable? Did you watch any of the replays?
I've heard protoss say that any sort of early aggression is "easily scoutable". Never really understood it myself, seeing as the zerg should be putting forth an effort not to get scouted.
I'm having success with this build against masters players as well as diamond, so his point really is moot.
Has anybody tried this vs the Jangbi build where you chrono out 2 zealots and 5 stalkers (Toss'll have 2 zeals and 3-4 stalkers out when you get to his base if he doesn't deviate from his build at all, but could have 2 zeals, 2 stalkers and 2 sentries if he scouts it coming if he went nexus 1st)?
I use this Zenio build when I get bored of Roaching players to death and it works quite well because most players don't scout it. However vs the 1-gate pressure in Jangbi's build I feel like it'll be impossible for him not to scout you fairly early on (he'll might be fighting your lings when speed finishes). On the other hand once speed finishes all of his units that are out on the map should die (he won't even have +1 just zeal/stalk) and it's hard for Toss to definitively say what is coming.
I'm curious as both a Z and (bad) P player what would happen here.
On July 16 2012 19:59 althaz wrote: Has anybody tried this vs the Jangbi build where you chrono out 2 zealots and 5 stalkers (Toss'll have 2 zeals and 3-4 stalkers out when you get to his base if he doesn't deviate from his build at all, but could have 2 zeals, 2 stalkers and 2 sentries if he scouts it coming if he went nexus 1st)?
I use this Zenio build when I get bored of Roaching players to death and it works quite well because most players don't scout it. However vs the 1-gate pressure in Jangbi's build I feel like it'll be impossible for him not to scout you fairly early on (he'll might be fighting your lings when speed finishes). On the other hand once speed finishes all of his units that are out on the map should die (he won't even have +1 just zeal/stalk) and it's hard for Toss to definitively say what is coming.
I'm curious as both a Z and (bad) P player what would happen here.
Well, the best way for protoss to scout it is to boost two zealots and send them straight into the zerg base to count drones (or zerglings). If you move out with the first two zealots, you should always see it coming (by either getting to his base and seeing no drones, or by getting caught by 10 zerglings which he shouldn't have) and that'll give you time to start boosting sentries, adding cannons, and reinforcing your wall.
If you wait for more units before poking you are going to die. Every unit outside your base is 100% dead, and staying on one gas usually means fewer sentries.
^ You boost 2 zealots, zerg just goes around them... by the time they arrive to zerg's third, you are being busted and you spent your gateway on 2 zealots instead of sentries.
As far as I know, a double zealot poke is the only reliable way to scout it. Maybe you can send a zealot and a probe into the natural to try to get one of them into the main to check the gas, but I'm pretty sure the zerg can deny that with his queen and 4 lings. The zealots arrive in time for you to start building 4 new cannons, and if those finish before he gets through the wall you will hold. I suppose you may have one fewer sentry, but you start making those zealots before the core completes. Many people go zealot zealot stalker anyway, but they don't immediately scout with the zealots.
The alternative is being dead. I do this build (and a similar 3 hatch roach/ling all-in that works on the same principle) regularly, and no one defends it blindly.
On July 17 2012 03:11 Oboeman wrote: As far as I know, a double zealot poke is the only reliable way to scout it. Maybe you can send a zealot and a probe into the natural to try to get one of them into the main to check the gas, but I'm pretty sure the zerg can deny that with his queen and 4 lings. The zealots arrive in time for you to start building 4 new cannons, and if those finish before he gets through the wall you will hold. I suppose you may have one fewer sentry, but you start making those zealots before the core completes. Many people go zealot zealot stalker anyway, but they don't immediately scout with the zealots.
The alternative is being dead. I do this build (and a similar 3 hatch roach/ling all-in that works on the same principle) regularly, and no one defends it blindly.
Yeah Naniwa did the double zealot poke, and Zenio was careful not to reveal any of his speedlings until after the zealots made it across the map. His bust was still successful, zealots make a slow scout.
I have a single question though. Why don't you cancel the third hatch when the probe scouted it for the extra 300 minerals?
You can't really stop his probe from scouting into the third again. Also in some scenarios the Protoss will move zealots across the map, and you can let them go straight to your third while you bypass them with your lings and go right for his expansion.
I have a question about this build from a PvZ point of view, you mentioned that a protoss player needs to scout the build coming to defend or he will die.. but how you are supposed to actually scout this coming, as the 3hatcheries and lings make everything seem really unsuspicious? (I remember even Naniwa fell for it so well in that game)
On August 10 2012 09:53 HoMM wrote: I have a question about this build from a PvZ point of view, you mentioned that a protoss player needs to scout the build coming to defend or he will die.. but how you are supposed to actually scout this coming, as the 3hatcheries and lings make everything seem really unsuspicious? (I remember even Naniwa fell for it so well in that game)
Thanks
If you can hide a probe early, you can scout with that, but usually you'll have to send either 2 zealots or zealot/stalker to the third, you basically have to force him to reveal Zergling speed by around 6:45, which gives you time to cut probes, chronoboost sentries, and reinforce your wall with additional cannons/pylons. Zenio managed to bypass Naniwa's Zealots as they moved across the map, and it's really important that those Zealots scout the speedlings.
On August 11 2012 04:12 Acquire wrote: My friend has been doing this for months before him. . . . .
"Sleet" NA server.
To be frank sir, no one cares that your friend did this before him.(if that is even true at all) The reason it is named after him is because he popularized it on the pro level
pretty good all-in. protoss getting lazy these days with scouting. Protoss doesn't even make the effort to scout the main for gas anymore. Many builds on later right now revolves around countering stephano style. This is a very handy build to learn. Esspecially for tournaments.
So many stalker/zealot first builds are being used right now. If they don't build a sentry it's nearly impossible to hold.
On August 11 2012 04:54 Northern_iight wrote: pretty good all-in. protoss getting lazy these days with scouting. Protoss doesn't even make the effort to scout the main for gas anymore. Many builds on later right now revolves around countering stephano style. This is a very handy build to learn. Esspecially for tournaments.
So many stalker/zealot first builds are being used right now. If they don't build a sentry it's nearly impossible to hold.
Yep, I do a variation of this on 2 hatch and I must be around 90% win rate vs FFE at high plat. (playing some diamond toss) Majority of protoss I play don't even bother to scout if I have a 3rd!
On August 11 2012 04:12 Acquire wrote: My friend has been doing this for months before him. . . . .
"Sleet" NA server.
Hey Acquire, didn't mean to insult "Sleet" - it may well have he who first did this 3-hatch bust. I doubt that Zenio saw his replay and copied him though, and it's fair to assume Zenio was the first to execute this build at the pro level.
One thing I've noticed is that lately, I've been seeing P not using a core as part of their wall in order to prevent it from getting focused down. This makes this build much stronger since you can simply run by mass lings with speed.
On August 17 2012 07:34 HelloSon wrote: One thing I've noticed is that lately, I've been seeing P not using a core as part of their wall in order to prevent it from getting focused down. This makes this build much stronger since you can simply run by mass lings with speed.
Those games are always so sweet, when the opponent doesn't completely wall-in so you just run by with speedlings. It used to be that on maps like Shakuras, Protoss wall the top of the ramp with 3 large buildings (gate/core/forge) but nowadays, they often use a pylon/zealot or no wall at all. This build is becoming more effective as Protoss go greedier.
On August 11 2012 04:54 Northern_iight wrote: pretty good all-in. protoss getting lazy these days with scouting. Protoss doesn't even make the effort to scout the main for gas anymore. Many builds on later right now revolves around countering stephano style. This is a very handy build to learn. Esspecially for tournaments.
So many stalker/zealot first builds are being used right now. If they don't build a sentry it's nearly impossible to hold.
Yep, I do a variation of this on 2 hatch and I must be around 90% win rate vs FFE at high plat. (playing some diamond toss) Majority of protoss I play don't even bother to scout if I have a 3rd!
In rewatching many of my ZvP games, I've noticed that rarely do Protoss players ever check for the third unless they plan to cannon it, which you can stop if you chase the initial probe with your lings and watch the front of their base.
I am ashamed of my former race. Not walling off? Not scouting the third? What the hell, Protoss? What the hell? Not walling off isn't even being greedy to attempt to seize an advantage, it doesn't even improve your timings by any significant amount, and any decent Zerg will scout the wall or lack thereof. Hell, not scouting for the third doesn't affect your build AT ALL. That's just straight-up laziness. Even in Plat I always, always did those two things :/
I must say I have seen great success with this build as a diamond player. I was playing something similar to this but I would get 2 queens and 3 hatches, decent saturation and a ton of lings + banelings and hit much later / delay their third. Rather than run up a ramp and lose half my forces to forcefields because my attack hit later, I would sit outside their natural and delay the third/threaten a run by. It was much less effective.
Using this I have won every match that they went FFE I believe. It can even work well against top of the ramp gateway openers. Use the original blings to bust down the pylon or the zealot and stream lings in. Lings vs zealots aren't bad if they don't have +1 and you have speed because they won't be able to kite well between attacks. Worst case you run circles around them and dart in to kill a few probes and keep running.
I've been doing a variation that gets ~50 more gas so i have enough banelings to kill the forge;
Second gas when i start speed (replace drone) Next 50 gas > Take one drone off the first gas and build baneling nest with it (replace drone) 2 drones onto the second gas giving you 2 geysers with 2 drones on each.
On August 20 2012 01:14 734pot wrote: I've been doing a variation that gets ~50 more gas so i have enough banelings to kill the forge;
Second gas when i start speed (replace drone) Next 50 gas > Take one drone off the first gas and build baneling nest with it (replace drone) 2 drones onto the second gas giving you 2 geysers with 2 drones on each.
Yeah I've been debating taking a 2nd gas or cancelling the third base. Will have to study some more pro games using this or similar styles.
On August 19 2012 23:51 kiklion wrote: I must say I have seen great success with this build as a diamond player. I was playing something similar to this but I would get 2 queens and 3 hatches, decent saturation and a ton of lings + banelings and hit much later / delay their third. Rather than run up a ramp and lose half my forces to forcefields because my attack hit later, I would sit outside their natural and delay the third/threaten a run by. It was much less effective.
Yeah I would argue the earlier you can bust (ie. before warpgate) the better. The problem with droning more and getting 2 queens is if they do a 7-8gate all-in, you're going to be hard pressed to hold it with only ling/bling.
On August 17 2012 07:59 GenesisX wrote: works like a charm :p but its hard if protoss goes sentry after zealot rather than stalker
One trick I've picked up is you can try to sacc your overlord to lure the sentry.
I always do this, the overlord is a retard magnet haha
thx to the OP, i've been doing this a lot since then when I see a very bad wall or a gas greedy protoss, going for example robo or stargate before sentry or even both.
On August 17 2012 07:59 GenesisX wrote: works like a charm :p but its hard if protoss goes sentry after zealot rather than stalker
One trick I've picked up is you can try to sacc your overlord to lure the sentry.
I always do this, the overlord is a retard magnet haha
thx to the OP, i've been doing this a lot since then when I see a very bad wall or a gas greedy protoss, going for example robo or stargate before sentry or even both.
Yeah it works well against greedy players, or players who send out Zealots/Stalkers to pressure/scout the third. Just gotta be careful not to reveal speed until the bust.
On September 03 2012 14:52 SickeL wrote: Tang, why do you like all ins so much? T~T I want to love you but I can't.
<3 haha When I first got started in SC2, I played on a laptop and lagged too much in the mid/late game. I literally was forced to end the game before 10 minutes, and this mindset has stuck with me. I have a new desktop and I don't all-in nearly as often as those days, but yes, I do like all-ins a lot
On September 11 2012 09:40 AndySCWilson wrote: So basically as long as they have a sentry out and can warp in sentrys you lose....
Or am I missing something here?
You might still fine, because you hit early enough before warpgate finishes. He has to forcefield the hole in his wall (and everyone leaves a hole these days) and then you attack any exposed pylons and the forge, and as soon as there is more than one hole he rapidly runs out of energy.
If he was blindly chronoboosting 3 sentries, you're probably out of luck, unless he really whiffs his forcefields or takes the overlord bait.
On September 11 2012 09:40 AndySCWilson wrote: So basically as long as they have a sentry out and can warp in sentrys you lose....
Or am I missing something here?
Not necessarily. I don't think there are many builds where warpgate will complete in time to warp in new sentries, so in effect your opponent would need to chronoboost out his first three sentries (starting pretty early on) to hold this attack. Very few players do this, as they'll either be chronoboosting probes, their robo, or tech-upgrades.
i too play zerg and i feel zerg isn't made for all ins. way too less affective imo then terran/toss all ins.
No way! Zerg has some of the strongest pushes because they have to sacrifice money and larva to do strong pushes! Doing that a lot and making a big push is like the epitome of an all-in haha.
i too play zerg and i feel zerg isn't made for all ins. way too less affective imo then terran/toss all ins.
No way! Zerg has some of the strongest pushes because they have to sacrifice money and larva to do strong pushes! Doing that a lot and making a big push is like the epitome of an all-in haha.
Everyone has a different opinion of how a race "should" be played, I don't really think there's a right or wrong answer! You can be successful with a wide range of styles/builds; I think part of the beauty of SC2 is this depth and variety.
i too play zerg and i feel zerg isn't made for all ins. way too less affective imo then terran/toss all ins.
No way! Zerg has some of the strongest pushes because they have to sacrifice money and larva to do strong pushes! Doing that a lot and making a big push is like the epitome of an all-in haha.
Everyone has a different opinion of how a race "should" be played, I don't really think there's a right or wrong answer! You can be successful with a wide range of styles/builds; I think part of the beauty of SC2 is this depth and variety.
Out of curiosity, Tang, how do you feel this all in compares to the very similar roach bust that hits around 7:40? It seems to me that having the roaches allows for more use of your "expensive" units as opposed to just suiciding banelings.
i too play zerg and i feel zerg isn't made for all ins. way too less affective imo then terran/toss all ins.
No way! Zerg has some of the strongest pushes because they have to sacrifice money and larva to do strong pushes! Doing that a lot and making a big push is like the epitome of an all-in haha.
Everyone has a different opinion of how a race "should" be played, I don't really think there's a right or wrong answer! You can be successful with a wide range of styles/builds; I think part of the beauty of SC2 is this depth and variety.
Out of curiosity, Tang, how do you feel this all in compares to the very similar roach bust that hits around 7:40? It seems to me that having the roaches allows for more use of your "expensive" units as opposed to just suiciding banelings.
I'm not too familiar with the build actually, but I know when I do Roach/Ling timings the most dreaded scenario is my opponent gets his first Voidray out before I snipe the pylon powering the Stargate. I think that first Voidray is very likely completed by the time the Roaches arrive at 7:40. What has been your experience with that timing?
i too play zerg and i feel zerg isn't made for all ins. way too less affective imo then terran/toss all ins.
No way! Zerg has some of the strongest pushes because they have to sacrifice money and larva to do strong pushes! Doing that a lot and making a big push is like the epitome of an all-in haha.
Everyone has a different opinion of how a race "should" be played, I don't really think there's a right or wrong answer! You can be successful with a wide range of styles/builds; I think part of the beauty of SC2 is this depth and variety.
Out of curiosity, Tang, how do you feel this all in compares to the very similar roach bust that hits around 7:40? It seems to me that having the roaches allows for more use of your "expensive" units as opposed to just suiciding banelings.
I'm not too familiar with the build actually, but I know when I do Roach/Ling timings the most dreaded scenario is my opponent gets his first Voidray out before I snipe the pylon powering the Stargate. I think that first Voidray is very likely completed by the time the Roaches arrive at 7:40. What has been your experience with that timing?
I've only done this sort of bust a couple of times, but, when my opponent did go stargate, the void ray had just popped when my attack hit. The VR shredded my roaches pretty fast, but wasn't able to handle the speedling that came with the initial push or the reinforcements. Despite the VR having impunity over my units, it couldn't kill them fast enough to matter. For reference, the approximate build is (obvious variations based on the scouting probes):
14 - Pool 16 - Hatch 15-19 - Queen and lings 21 - Gas 20 - Hatch 28 - Roach Warren
****Stop Drones****
27 - Overlord @100 Gas - Speed 28 - Lings 28 - Overlord 28-38 - Roaches (Rally Across Map) 38 - Overlord x2 38+ - Lings (Rally to Roaches)
@7:50 - Dance lings once inside opponents natural.
First wave hits ~7:40 with 5 roaches and a handful of speedlings. Bust down the door with the roaches and rally in reinforcing lings to finish off your opponent.
On October 11 2012 05:09 ian952 wrote: What if your opponent force field the hole in his wall and then warps in more sentries for more force fields?
The problem is that they are only going to have one sentry and warp gate shouldn't be even close to being complete by 7:15. If they went gateway expand, then WG can be done by ~6:40, but, even then, they will most likely only have one or two gates available and only so much gas to burn.
On October 11 2012 05:09 ian952 wrote: What if your opponent force field the hole in his wall and then warps in more sentries for more force fields?
break the forge and any pylons in the wall. you can usually open up holes faster than he can warp in more sentries to fill them. especially if you do roach/ling instead of baneling.
I'm not too familiar with the build actually, but I know when I do Roach/Ling timings the most dreaded scenario is my opponent gets his first Voidray out before I snipe the pylon powering the Stargate. I think that first Voidray is very likely completed by the time the Roaches arrive at 7:40. What has been your experience with that timing?
The void ray is never out fast enough to save his wall from the roaches, and once you are in his base, you kill everything with speedlings.
I went on a rampage on ladder doing the 3 hatch roach/ling build that shadogi is referring to. I'm masters on NA and this build carried me into top 8 of my division pretty easily. Here's 21 zvp games in a row, and I went 19-2. In my two losses I screwed up the build. One game I started the roach warren 30 seconds late and he barely held because I was late. In another game I forgot to start ling speed so I couldn't reinforce properly.
On October 11 2012 05:09 ian952 wrote: What if your opponent force field the hole in his wall and then warps in more sentries for more force fields?
break the forge and any pylons in the wall. you can usually open up holes faster than he can warp in more sentries to fill them. especially if you do roach/ling instead of baneling.
I'm not too familiar with the build actually, but I know when I do Roach/Ling timings the most dreaded scenario is my opponent gets his first Voidray out before I snipe the pylon powering the Stargate. I think that first Voidray is very likely completed by the time the Roaches arrive at 7:40. What has been your experience with that timing?
The void ray is never out fast enough to save his wall from the roaches, and once you are in his base, you kill everything with speedlings.
I went on a rampage on ladder doing the 3 hatch roach/ling build that shadogi is referring to. I'm masters on NA and this build carried me into top 8 of my division pretty easily. Here's 21 zvp games in a row, and I went 19-2. In my two losses I screwed up the build. One game I started the roach warren 30 seconds late and he barely held because I was late. In another game I forgot to start ling speed so I couldn't reinforce properly.
Hey, tried this against a nexus first into forge, worked well, but against 1g expand how is this build doing ? THe toss will have some centry and bane doesn't do rly well against centry . . .
On October 17 2012 18:37 Maismz wrote: Hey, tried this against a nexus first into forge, worked well, but against 1g expand how is this build doing ? THe toss will have some centry and bane doesn't do rly well against centry . . .
Hit or miss.
They will have 2 sentries and can ff while reinforcing wall off with cannons or gateways. If you catch them sleeping though it's gg.
I think I have only lost using this build to fe into 4 gate.
I will try both tonight, Roach/Ling push & the bane/lings all in are really good to catch your oppenent off guard even tho i really love going macro vs Brotoss.
And Tang, ive seen one of my teammate holding that 3 base ling bane all in with FE into 4gates with only sentries, and i think it's the best counter to that build and not the stargate play.
I got absolutely hosed by this the other day. Absolutely did not see it coming. Most Protosses (like me) scout the third base and automatically go into "awesome nothing is coming for another few minutes" mode. Then the banes hit...
As toss the way to scout this is just to get a probe into the main or stay really active on the map even after you scout the 3 rd going down.
On October 18 2012 04:25 DinoMight wrote: I got absolutely hosed by this the other day. Absolutely did not see it coming. Most Protosses (like me) scout the third base and automatically go into "awesome nothing is coming for another few minutes" mode. Then the banes hit...
As toss the way to scout this is just to get a probe into the main or stay really active on the map even after you scout the 3 rd going down.
As someone who enjoys this build I'd recommend sending a zealot into the main, you be lucky to get a probe into the main especially with queen range these days! I don't see how else you scout this otherwise, even if you see the lings streaming across the map sometimes its too late to prepare already depending on your opening. I must say I've had a few protoss hold this off really well but still my win rate vs FFE is way too high
On October 18 2012 04:25 DinoMight wrote: I got absolutely hosed by this the other day. Absolutely did not see it coming. Most Protosses (like me) scout the third base and automatically go into "awesome nothing is coming for another few minutes" mode. Then the banes hit...
As toss the way to scout this is just to get a probe into the main or stay really active on the map even after you scout the 3 rd going down.
As someone who enjoys this build I'd recommend sending a zealot into the main, you be lucky to get a probe into the main especially with queen range these days! I don't see how else you scout this otherwise, even if you see the lings streaming across the map sometimes its too late to prepare already depending on your opening. I must say I've had a few protoss hold this off really well but still my win rate vs FFE is way too high
You're right about getting the probe in (though it's possible to scout the gas right around 3:30-3:45.) The problem with sending only 1 Zealot is it'll usually get killed by 4 Zerglings, so it's almost as though you either need to quickly send out 2 Zealots or 1Zealot/1Stalker and start immediately chronoboosting sentries when things don't add up (Ling speed or more than 4 Zerglings), or your build just needs to blindly build sentries early.
I've been using this build and have had great success with it. Only a few times i have been worried about it because i realized he might have been able to hold with proper ff. This is only if he chooses to go 2+ sentries instead of stalkers/zealots for early harass. Then an idea occurred to me... if you poke his front and see he has sentries, what about sending a 7 minute overlord as a 'retard magnet' to draw the sentries in. I mean, its standard scout time anyways. Hopefully, as most players do he will send his sentries to buzz away at the overlord, and that could be your que to fly in with the banelings. Even if your not sure if hes building sentries, you could always fly that overlord in. I don't think it would cripple your reinforcements too much. Tell me what you think and great guide!
On January 22 2013 04:48 uNiQuEDK wrote: I've been using this build and have had great success with it. Only a few times i have been worried about it because i realized he might have been able to hold with proper ff. This is only if he chooses to go 2+ sentries instead of stalkers/zealots for early harass. Then an idea occurred to me... if you poke his front and see he has sentries, what about sending a 7 minute overlord as a 'retard magnet' to draw the sentries in. I mean, its standard scout time anyways. Hopefully, as most players do he will send his sentries to buzz away at the overlord, and that could be your que to fly in with the banelings. Even if your not sure if hes building sentries, you could always fly that overlord in. I don't think it would cripple your reinforcements too much. Tell me what you think and great guide!
I've never actually done the "magnet" overlord to draw sentries away from the front, but I think it's a smart idea. It definitely wouldn't hurt your reinforcements enough to matter, and could help you with a game that you would otherwise lose. I'd love to see a replay of someone who pulls that off haha
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OGVIA.jpg)
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at most they will get 1 warpin of zealots off 4-5 gateways after u get in 
