EPTYou should make a guid witch really gonna help players, all-in is not the style of zerg, pros do that sometimes cuz at their level theirs alots of mind games, and they trick their opponents to tilt them. Make a good macro guide and ill be sold, not a 3 base maxout guide, just pure macro guide at timings on your opennent gas and what it means. I got many ideas for you, the 15min min broodlord drg build, opening with a quick 4 queens to deny helion, theres alot you can make and witch really gonna help the community.
[G] LiquidZenio's ZvP All-In: 3 Hatch Ling/Bane - Page 5
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
You should make a guid witch really gonna help players, all-in is not the style of zerg, pros do that sometimes cuz at their level theirs alots of mind games, and they trick their opponents to tilt them. Make a good macro guide and ill be sold, not a 3 base maxout guide, just pure macro guide at timings on your opennent gas and what it means. I got many ideas for you, the 15min min broodlord drg build, opening with a quick 4 queens to deny helion, theres alot you can make and witch really gonna help the community. | ||
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Tailss
Sweden233 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On April 24 2012 21:10 Bellazuk wrote: just by the title I knew it was made by tang, sick stuff man continue your "aggresive style" maybe u'll get gm this season? You should make a guid witch really gonna help players, all-in is not the style of zerg, pros do that sometimes cuz at their level theirs alots of mind games, and they trick their opponents to tilt them. Make a good macro guide and ill be sold, not a 3 base maxout guide, just pure macro guide at timings on your opennent gas and what it means. I got many ideas for you, the 15min min broodlord drg build, opening with a quick 4 queens to deny helion, theres alot you can make and witch really gonna help the community. Personally I find these a breath of fresh air where I have my two stable builds per matchup, and would like to add an all-in to my repertoire. I don't see why this is such a problem for you, there are plenty of long term macro guides out there. If all-ins didn't exist, solid macro play would just be..... macro play. Might as well play 10min norush. You want me to compare this guide to your post? At least tang can represent himself decently, you can't even go three words without making a spelling mistake or grammatical error. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 24 2012 21:10 Bellazuk wrote: just by the title I knew it was made by tang, sick stuff man continue your "aggresive style" maybe u'll get gm this season? You should make a guid witch really gonna help players, all-in is not the style of zerg, pros do that sometimes cuz at their level theirs alots of mind games, and they trick their opponents to tilt them. I got many ideas for you, the 15min min broodlord drg build, opening with a quick 4 queens to deny helion, theres alot you can make and witch really gonna help the community. The argument I try to make is that there is no "style of zerg". Yes, macro-oriented styles have dominated the NA server for a long time, but the scout-and-respond style of Zerg has never been my personal preference. I like to dictate the pace of the game by executing timing attacks, or at least some form of constant-pressure. I do understand the importance of macro, but I approach it differently than others - that's why I don't write guides on builds like the 15min broodlord of DRG, because it's not the type of build that I use very often. If you have some replays though, I could practice with it and maybe do a guide on the macro-broodlord ZvT down the road. Thanks for the suggestions! | ||
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
On April 24 2012 21:43 TangSC wrote: The argument I try to make is that there is no "style of zerg". Yes, macro-oriented styles have dominated the NA server for a long time, but the scout-and-respond style of Zerg has never been my personal preference. I like to dictate the pace of the game by executing timing attacks, or at least some form of constant-pressure. I do understand the importance of macro, but I approach it differently than others - that's why I don't write guides on builds like the 15min broodlord of DRG, because it's not the type of build that I use very often. If you have some replays though, I could practice with it and maybe do a guide on the macro-broodlord ZvT down the road. Thanks for the suggestions! I'll find them and zip them and send them back to you, thanks btw, seems your really open-minded  | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries then you have nothing going for you. could you post replays of your lack of success? I've always had massive success with this type of build. I was doing 3 hatch roach ling all-ins for a while even before seeing zenio do the 3 hatch baneling, and I tried that as well. I stopped doing these builds because I was forgetting how to play a macro game against protoss, because winning was too easy. Hiding it isn't difficult and every protoss is reluctant to build 6 cannons at just a slight suspicion because they saw two more zerglings or fewer drones at the natural or something. It's cheese but it is a powerful tool that should be used to keep protoss honest. FFE with 1 cannon and 1 sentry is unbelievably greedy. Most protoss don't even make that sentry anymore. P needs to scout harder to be sure that they are safe. If other people are using this cheese build maybe it means protoss will play more cautiously and their timings won't be as powerful against the macro zergs. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 24 2012 11:13 neoghaleon55 wrote: I don't like this build. I've been trying it all day without success. The timing is very strict, if protoss gets any hint of what you're doing, like seeing a few too many lings, they will make sentries... a lot of damn sentries then you have nothing going for you. It is a timing attack, so it has to be on time and you can't give it away that you're doing it. As long as you're hitting by about 7:15, they shouldn't have too many sentries though. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On April 25 2012 01:21 TangSC wrote: It is a timing attack, so it has to be on time and you can't give it away that you're doing it. As long as you're hitting by about 7:15, they shouldn't have too many sentries though. It's important to note that if you scout your opponent blind countering you, it'd be better to not commit at all to an attack. IMO merely getting speed early is enough of an indication to any protoss that you are being cheesy, because otherwise it hurts your economy pretty bad. Part of why it worked for zenio is that he was doing 2 base hydra builds in all his other ZvPs and that build looked very similar, which made it hard for people to scout him. | ||
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
However, I do not understand your choice of busted building. Why go for the forge ? Isn't taking out the cyber core/gateway more crippling ? And why not try to bring down two buildings with the bane splash ? | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
I'm curious what your thoughts are on Zenio's 3 hatch ling hydra---> corruptor/roach featured on day9? I'm a little torn on it right now since going hydra does not directly feed into the infestor/brood/lingbaneling techtree. If I'm going for a defensive style towards high tech, stephano mass spines seems like it leads to an easier transition. | ||
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KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On April 25 2012 05:27 ArcticRaven wrote: Nice to see a 3-hatch bane bust build, I need those so badly in BoX ^.^ However, I do not understand your choice of busted building. Why go for the forge ? Isn't taking out the cyber core/gateway more crippling ? And why not try to bring down two buildings with the bane splash ? the goal is to get behind the wall as fast as possible with as many remaining units as possible, and the forge has the least amount of hit points. | ||
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qwertyindeed
151 Posts
On April 24 2012 22:39 Oboeman wrote: could you post replays of your lack of success? I've always had massive success with this type of build. I was doing 3 hatch roach ling all-ins for a while even before seeing zenio do the 3 hatch baneling, and I tried that as well. I stopped doing these builds because I was forgetting how to play a macro game against protoss, because winning was too easy. Hiding it isn't difficult and every protoss is reluctant to build 6 cannons at just a slight suspicion because they saw two more zerglings or fewer drones at the natural or something. It's cheese but it is a powerful tool that should be used to keep protoss honest. FFE with 1 cannon and 1 sentry is unbelievably greedy. Most protoss don't even make that sentry anymore. P needs to scout harder to be sure that they are safe. If other people are using this cheese build maybe it means protoss will play more cautiously and their timings won't be as powerful against the macro zergs. if i take the expo out and they have too many zelots, i usually transition to hydras. most toss that have held immediately counter-they dont wait for collasi (usually have stargate and a couple of gateways up) | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 25 2012 06:06 qwertyindeed wrote: if i take the expo out and they have too many zelots, i usually transition to hydras. most toss that have held immediately counter-they dont wait for collasi (usually have stargate and a couple of gateways up) Remember - this is an all-in build, if you're not having success it might be because you're trying to transition. If you're using this build against Forge Fast Expand, there shouldn't be situations where you would need to transition into hydras. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
I've played around with the style a bit lately and I'm finding it REALLY cool (not having to deal with bs proxy pylons is so nice), though, once the toss is comfortably situated on three bases, I don't really know what to do...and, naturally, Zenio replays are a dime a dozen... | ||
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Deleted User 81929
243 Posts
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ELYSiUMlol
United States89 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On April 25 2012 23:40 ELYSiUMlol wrote: Why is it so looked down upon for Zergs to have strategic THREE BASE allins that play off the current metagame when as soon as someone posts a 1 base Terran build or some FFE followup with no planned transition it's heralded as the second coming of Jesus? I can't tell you how many times I've played vs 1 base Robo on ladder and yet everyone seems to think it's some kind of unholy sin for Zerg to play aggressively at all, even if there's a natural transition out of the build. Well not everyone feels that way! It's just the way larva/drone mechanics work, zergs tend to like reaching the 3 fully saturated bases as early as possible. Also popular NA pros like IdrA have been advocates of pure-macro style, which is why many think Zerg cannot be aggressive in the early/midgame. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 25 2012 04:21 oOOoOphidian wrote: It's important to note that if you scout your opponent blind countering you, it'd be better to not commit at all to an attack. IMO merely getting speed early is enough of an indication to any protoss that you are being cheesy, because otherwise it hurts your economy pretty bad. Part of why it worked for zenio is that he was doing 2 base hydra builds in all his other ZvPs and that build looked very similar, which made it hard for people to scout him. How does a 2 base build look like a 3 base build? You have to explain that one to me because most protoss players are pretty good at scouting whether the opponent is going 2 base or 3 base now... | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On April 26 2012 03:15 TangSC wrote: Well not everyone feels that way! It's just the way larva/drone mechanics work, zergs tend to like reaching the 3 fully saturated bases as early as possible. Also popular NA pros like IdrA have been advocates of pure-macro style, which is why many think Zerg cannot be aggressive in the early/midgame. The way zerg larve mechanics work if your all-in fails, you're more all-in than other races. When zergs tried to all-in before, they just randomly sent units into an opponents' base and it usually failed because zerg players were unsure of themselves and early game zerg units tend not to do so well versus random compositions. As the game began to be figured out, other races' builds became more refined and standardized, so it became predictable how many and what units they would have when the all-in hit. This is why, in my opinion, zerg all-ins are only somewhat recent inventions compared to other races' all-ins. Roach ling allin vs ffe, roach hatch cancel all-in vs ffe, baneling all-ins vs ffe, roach ling all-in vs gateway expand, roach ling all-in vs terran, and roach baneling all-in vs terran are all controlled all-ins that have a high chance of working based on scouting. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On April 26 2012 03:31 FairForever wrote: How does a 2 base build look like a 3 base build? You have to explain that one to me because most protoss players are pretty good at scouting whether the opponent is going 2 base or 3 base now... Zergling speed denies scouting of the third. The gas timing is the same and the protoss is only able to scout the exact same things for both builds, so they can't really tell. The point is that normally protoss would expect an all-in after seeing an early gas and ling speed, but because Zenio was using a macro based hydra build they couldn't just blind counter an all-in after scouting that or they would fall very far behind (which Naniwa in particular did quite a few times against him). | ||
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