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I went back to read the guide and have some more questions.
It seems like if toss just stole a gas with his scouting probe it would be a real issue. You either sacrifice mining to kill assimilator or reveal your early units and tech. Also, won't it be suspiscious when you don't saturate the third? And if you have all the early lings to deny a poke at the third, that in and of itself just screams all-in. Basically, if the guy scouts hard and doesn't just abandon the probe to die it seems like you are in trouble.
If you want to trick protoss, why not stay on two bases to fake the all-in, pressure with a few units and then double expand while toss is gearing up to hold a push that isn't coming?
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On April 26 2012 03:15 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:40 ELYSiUMlol wrote:
Why is it so looked down upon for Zergs to have strategic THREE BASE allins that play off the current metagame when as soon as someone posts a 1 base Terran build or some FFE followup with no planned transition it's heralded as the second coming of Jesus? I can't tell you how many times I've played vs 1 base Robo on ladder and yet everyone seems to think it's some kind of unholy sin for Zerg to play aggressively at all, even if there's a natural transition out of the build. Well not everyone feels that way! It's just the way larva/drone mechanics work, zergs tend to like reaching the 3 fully saturated bases as early as possible. Also popular NA pros like IdrA have been advocates of pure-macro style, which is why many think Zerg cannot be aggressive in the early/midgame.
Oh, don't worry, I respect your pursuit of a unique playstyle and it's definitely necessary, there needs to be someone that writes guides that actually cater to an aggressive playstyle. It just seems that every time I see one of your threads, there are a bunch of people telling you to learn how to play, despite the fact that they probably 1/1/1 or 1 base robo every other game. I just find it silly.
Thanks for the guide btw, I love this build, 100% success rate so far.
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On April 26 2012 08:17 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Zergling speed denies scouting of the third. The gas timing is the same and the protoss is only able to scout the exact same things for both builds, so they can't really tell. The point is that normally protoss would expect an all-in after seeing an early gas and ling speed, but because Zenio was using a macro based hydra build they couldn't just blind counter an all-in after scouting that or they would fall very far behind (which Naniwa in particular did quite a few times against him).
That's not true. Ling speed isn't done early enough to deny scouting the 3rd unless you delay your 3rd a long time.
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Lazin the probe can scout when it goes down, I'm talking about is he able to verify that the base isn't being saturated with drones? A fast third with poor saturation is likely to be spotted for what it is: an external macro hatch.
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rikter I was responding to somebody else, sorry. Editing my previous post for clarity.
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On April 26 2012 09:58 rikter wrote:
I went back to read the guide and have some more questions.
It seems like if toss just stole a gas with his scouting probe it would be a real issue. You either sacrifice mining to kill assimilator or reveal your early units and tech. Also, won't it be suspiscious when you don't saturate the third? And if you have all the early lings to deny a poke at the third, that in and of itself just screams all-in. Basically, if the guy scouts hard and doesn't just abandon the probe to die it seems like you are in trouble.
If you want to trick protoss, why not stay on two bases to fake the all-in, pressure with a few units and then double expand while toss is gearing up to hold a push that isn't coming?
I don't know if you're here just to stir shit up, but why the heck would protoss be stealing a gas against zerg in any situation, much less a FFE?
If it was that easy pros wouldn't use it. If Protoss does a full scout of the third and it looks normal, he's going to lose his probe, so it's a tradeoff because in most cases scouting the third won't help you.
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I'm not trying to stir shit up, I'm just working backwards: this build has weird gas timings. if the 75mins allows you to spot his gas timings and let you know what's coming its probably worth the 75 mins. It might not be done often, but if you are doing this build and someone did steal gas, how would you respond?
I.e. do you pull drones to take it down asap? Do you just take the gas at the natural?
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On April 26 2012 09:58 rikter wrote:
I went back to read the guide and have some more questions.
It seems like if toss just stole a gas with his scouting probe it would be a real issue. You either sacrifice mining to kill assimilator or reveal your early units and tech. Also, won't it be suspiscious when you don't saturate the third? And if you have all the early lings to deny a poke at the third, that in and of itself just screams all-in. Basically, if the guy scouts hard and doesn't just abandon the probe to die it seems like you are in trouble.
If you want to trick protoss, why not stay on two bases to fake the all-in, pressure with a few units and then double expand while toss is gearing up to hold a push that isn't coming?
There's a reason protoss does not steal Zerg gas - it wouldn't give any valuable information, because a queen and 2-4 lings can kill it in no time. It won't give vision of the other gas geyser and won't stay alive long enough to scout that speed has been researched. In terms of saturating the 3rd, zerg players generally don't start rallying to the 3rd until after the 6min mark (42+ supply, rally the natural to the 3rd) so there's really no indication based on lack of a saturated 3rd. It's usually when protoss moves out with 2-3 zealots to the 3rd that they would notice something is up, but by this time speed is finished and they have VERY limited time to react.
I don't like the idea of faking an all-in off 2 base and then double expanding - it's a completely different build, and not likely to be as effective as this.
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I have a question:
Why not just cancel the third after the probe dies or goes away after seeing it?
Maybe just don't take a third once probe leaves (many toss just assume fast third when no gas)? I assume though, the only reason for third is to trick toss, and standard toss will probe scout for third...
And you don't make a 2nd or 3rd queen? Why plant a tumor down if you are all inning anyways. Personally I make queens consecutievely so I never miss an inject but can kay a tumor when third pops, whcih will have the original queen there when it pops, with extra energy for a tumor and inject.
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On April 27 2012 14:56 Belial88 wrote:
I have a question:
Why not just cancel the third after the probe dies or goes away after seeing it?
Maybe just don't take a third once probe leaves (many toss just assume fast third when no gas)? I assume though, the only reason for third is to trick toss, and standard toss will probe scout for third...
And you don't make a 2nd or 3rd queen? Why plant a tumor down if you are all inning anyways. Personally I make queens consecutievely so I never miss an inject but can kay a tumor when third pops, whcih will have the original queen there when it pops, with extra energy for a tumor and inject.
There's no guarantee he won't send another probe or even the same probe back. Ling speed doesn't finish until about 7:00, so there's no way to deny him scouting the 3rd. Besides, since you're only producing a single queen, the added larva of the 3rd hatch does come into play (and works out quite nicely I might add).
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^ okay, just making sure the reason for third is to trick toss. Ill try to cancel third if I kill probe on larger maps or something, and yea, I know you are right you can't really deny the toss from scouting third.
I see what you mean about queens though... what about making 2 queen on 2 base cancelled third if you could get away with cancelling the third?
Do you think making a 2nd queen cuts too much into the timing or strength of the build? Id think that a 2nd queen would come quick enough that it would paid for itself by the time of the push.
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On April 28 2012 14:10 Belial88 wrote:
^ okay, just making sure the reason for third is to trick toss. Ill try to cancel third if I kill probe on larger maps or something, and yea, I know you are right you can't really deny the toss from scouting third.
I see what you mean about queens though... what about making 2 queen on 2 base cancelled third if you could get away with cancelling the third?
Do you think making a 2nd queen cuts too much into the timing or strength of the build? Id think that a 2nd queen would come quick enough that it would paid for itself by the time of the push.
It's difficult to afford the second queen and the 3rd base when you are mining gas, and upgrading speed. Getting 225 minerals back from cancelling is too late I think. If you're going to build the 3rd to trick them, just use the larva from it and cut the second queen.
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Thanks Oboeman for clearing that up!
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On April 28 2012 14:10 Belial88 wrote:
^ okay, just making sure the reason for third is to trick toss. Ill try to cancel third if I kill probe on larger maps or something, and yea, I know you are right you can't really deny the toss from scouting third.
I see what you mean about queens though... what about making 2 queen on 2 base cancelled third if you could get away with cancelling the third?
Do you think making a 2nd queen cuts too much into the timing or strength of the build? Id think that a 2nd queen would come quick enough that it would paid for itself by the time of the push.
You can't afford the second queen, I've tried a few times. You want to still drone to 26-28 supply just to be able to stream 1queen worth of lings, you'd have to cut drones to get the 2nd queen, which wouldn't help because you don't have the mineral economy to support 2hatch 2queen.
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On April 26 2012 03:36 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 03:15 TangSC wrote:On April 25 2012 23:40 ELYSiUMlol wrote:
Why is it so looked down upon for Zergs to have strategic THREE BASE allins that play off the current metagame when as soon as someone posts a 1 base Terran build or some FFE followup with no planned transition it's heralded as the second coming of Jesus? I can't tell you how many times I've played vs 1 base Robo on ladder and yet everyone seems to think it's some kind of unholy sin for Zerg to play aggressively at all, even if there's a natural transition out of the build. Well not everyone feels that way! It's just the way larva/drone mechanics work, zergs tend to like reaching the 3 fully saturated bases as early as possible. Also popular NA pros like IdrA have been advocates of pure-macro style, which is why many think Zerg cannot be aggressive in the early/midgame. The way zerg larve mechanics work if your all-in fails, you're more all-in than other races. When zergs tried to all-in before, they just randomly sent units into an opponents' base and it usually failed because zerg players were unsure of themselves and early game zerg units tend not to do so well versus random compositions. As the game began to be figured out, other races' builds became more refined and standardized, so it became predictable how many and what units they would have when the all-in hit. This is why, in my opinion, zerg all-ins are only somewhat recent inventions compared to other races' all-ins. Roach ling allin vs ffe, roach hatch cancel all-in vs ffe, baneling all-ins vs ffe, roach ling all-in vs gateway expand, roach ling all-in vs terran, and roach baneling all-in vs terran are all controlled all-ins that have a high chance of working based on scouting.
Hm, that's a pretty interesting way to look at it. I mean a lot of the ZvT all-ins tend to get shut down if the Terran has scouted it or they blindly went for fast Siege Tanks, something you rarely see in the current metagame. Yet back when the game was young random compositions involving Siege Tanks were rather common if I recall. In other words, the more refined players and their builds get the more their opponents are able to exploit their predictability.
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you two are so meta.
The " This is why, in my opinion, zerg all-ins are only somewhat recent inventions compared to other races' all-ins" comment reminds me what david kim said of Toss: He said that Toss innovation was really far behind Z/T, because they were 1 and 2 base warp gate all-inning most of the time. After wg was slightly nerfed, Toss started to innovate more, but they are much further behind than the other 2 races.
Which is kind of cool. Kind of re-affirms what a lot of people had been saying, that Toss just weren't as innovative as the other races, to which many toss would just derp and rabidly defend their race.
So the macro race, zerg, has innovated a lot, but doesn't have much in terms of all-ins because they have stuck to macro for so long, and the all-in race is behind. And then T is just way ahead in terms of innovation... i guess a combination of macro being so rewarding due to mules, and the variety of options T has compared to other races.
I mean toss is still all-inning a lot. Genius all-inned in what, like 4/5 of his games against drg, and immortal/sentry is a relatively new all-in strat P are using.
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On April 29 2012 19:35 Belial88 wrote:
you two are so meta.
The " This is why, in my opinion, zerg all-ins are only somewhat recent inventions compared to other races' all-ins" comment reminds me what david kim said of Toss: He said that Toss innovation was really far behind Z/T, because they were 1 and 2 base warp gate all-inning most of the time. After wg was slightly nerfed, Toss started to innovate more, but they are much further behind than the other 2 races.
Which is kind of cool. Kind of re-affirms what a lot of people had been saying, that Toss just weren't as innovative as the other races, to which many toss would just derp and rabidly defend their race.
So the macro race, zerg, has innovated a lot, but doesn't have much in terms of all-ins because they have stuck to macro for so long, and the all-in race is behind. And then T is just way ahead in terms of innovation... i guess a combination of macro being so rewarding due to mules, and the variety of options T has compared to other races.
I mean toss is still all-inning a lot. Genius all-inned in what, like 4/5 of his games against drg, and immortal/sentry is a relatively new all-in strat P are using.
I would agree, there's so much talk about races being over/underpowered, but I think it's more a matter of races being underdeveloped. There are so many possible strategies/responses that haven't even been touched, so to say one race has an advantage over the other really only takes into consideration the current metagame.
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You guys are spot on in saying that the races are undeveloped.
My personal pet peeve/best example of this is all the players who refuse to use the Terran Infestor. Wait, Terran Infestor? What? Yes, Terran Infestor, or as it is known in-game "Raven".
Consider....
Infestor
Fungal Growth: AOE, prevents movement, forces micro
Infested Terran: Spawns slow moving unit that attacks air and ground
Neural Parasite: Negates enemy units by turning them into friendly units
Burrowed Movement: Allows for sneakiness
Force Multiplier: Trading energy for combat units is the height of supply efficiency
Without Energy: Completely useless
Raven
Seeker Missile: AOE, follows unit for 15s (20s DM), forces micro
Auto Turret: Spawns a unit that attacks air and ground that is immobile but lasts longer (even longer with DM)
Point Defense Drone: Negates enemy units by deploying a device that absorbs their missile attacks
Flys: Allows for sneakiness
Force Multiplier: Trades energy for units, supply efficient.
Without Energy: Still a Detector providing mobile detection with army, flying at same speed as medivacs.
Now I know that the energy values are a bit different for the spells, but this is because (I believe) of the relative abilities of the 2 races. Example: Infested Terran cost less than auto turret because zerg has no ground units that attack air, Fungal growth costs less than seeker missile because zerg has way lass AOE than Terran and seeker missile does more damage.
Ask any terran player "if you could build infestors like zerg, would you?" and I'm pretty sure the answer would be yes. Terran may not need the Raven abillities as much as Zerg needs infestors, but the Raven is an incredibly useful unit that is underused. I think we will see more Raven play in HotS because burrow move banelings and ultras are going to make mobile detection critically important.
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On May 05 2012 00:52 rikter wrote:
You guys are spot on in saying that the races are undeveloped.
My personal pet peeve/best example of this is all the players who refuse to use the Terran Infestor. Wait, Terran Infestor? What? Yes, Terran Infestor, or as it is known in-game "Raven".
Consider....
Infestor
Fungal Growth: AOE, prevents movement, forces micro
Infested Terran: Spawns slow moving unit that attacks air and ground
Neural Parasite: Negates enemy units by turning them into friendly units
Burrowed Movement: Allows for sneakiness
Force Multiplier: Trading energy for combat units is the height of supply efficiency
Without Energy: Completely useless
Raven
Seeker Missile: AOE, follows unit for 15s (20s DM), forces micro
Auto Turret: Spawns a unit that attacks air and ground that is immobile but lasts longer (even longer with DM)
Point Defense Drone: Negates enemy units by deploying a device that absorbs their missile attacks
Flys: Allows for sneakiness
Force Multiplier: Trades energy for units, supply efficient.
Without Energy: Still a Detector providing mobile detection with army, flying at same speed as medivacs.
Now I know that the energy values are a bit different for the spells, but this is because (I believe) of the relative abilities of the 2 races. Example: Infested Terran cost less than auto turret because zerg has no ground units that attack air, Fungal growth costs less than seeker missile because zerg has way lass AOE than Terran and seeker missile does more damage.
Ask any terran player "if you could build infestors like zerg, would you?" and I'm pretty sure the answer would be yes. Terran may not need the Raven abillities as much as Zerg needs infestors, but the Raven is an incredibly useful unit that is underused. I think we will see more Raven play in HotS because burrow move banelings and ultras are going to make mobile detection critically important.
Raven talk in a ZvP guide?! 
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It is very funny to see how some people react when you make a new guide (all in l2p ...). However when someone makes a guide for 10gate zealot+1, he is congratulated... Very sad.
Anyway, why do you want to do this on Ohana and not on shakuras ?
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EPT
