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8Minute Overlord Drop
Hello TL!
I'm working on a guide to dropping against forge fast expand and I'm looking for feedback. In particular, I want to perfect a very early overlord drop with zergling or zergling/baneling(roughly 8minutes) and determine whether the build has any long-term viability or whether it's a coin-flip all-in. I've seen pros like Nestea and Spanishiwa use a lot of drops in ZvP, but I'm not sold on whether this 8minute ling opening is something you could do in a BO5 format.
I did an 1hr15min stream episode analyzing the timings/replays (Please Follow): http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/b/302592802
Here is a replay file (My favorite so far): http://drop.sc/75173
If you guys have time, please watch the lesson, experiment with the style, and contribute replays (No matter your skill level or whether you win or lose). I've had moderate success with this style but it needs a bit of work, so please comment on the games I lost and make any suggestions.
Most of the successful games are against FFE ---> Stargate, so I'm wondering how much damage this will do against 5gate robo, 7gate with +1, 5Gate Blink or DT, etc. If you have any pro replays of similar styles, please contribute.
I would LOVE feedback criticizing this style and showing weaknesses, but please support your arguments with replays or examples.
Basic Notes (Covered at start of stream lesson): + Show Spoiler +Drop Style Opening in ZvP: Notes for Stream
- Note that this style only works against FFE or Nexus first
Step 1 Meta-Game Protoss so he builds unnecessary cannons at front.
14gas/14pool
Mine more than 100 Gas, start speed
Let his probe scout 1base baneling nest
Begin rallying almost all overlords to where you plan to execute your ling drop.
Step 2: Take map control with speedlings, drone up and tech
Cancel nest and start an expansion.
Start your lair by 4:20 ( ^_^ )
Drone hard
2nd gas by 5:00 (when lair is ¼ complete)
5:50 Start drop tech, still droning unless you have to make lings.
At 7/7:15 (33/40 supply) Cut drones and start making lots of zerglings, rallied to your overlord drop location.
Time overlord speed to finish about 15-20 seconds before drop does so overlords and lings can get in position. (By about 6:30/6:45)
Step 3: Execute an 8minute Speedling drop and transition
Once I get enough lings to fill 2-3 overlords, I go right back into droning and usually take a 3rd. Keep in mind this is meant to be a way of pressuring the FFE protoss but not necessarily killing them. I always drop the main, because that's where most of the tech and least of the defenses are. I try to kill probes first, then the nexus, but I will make exceptions if pylons or structures are poorly placed. Based on the information I get of the protoss's tech choice (and how much damage I'm able to do) I'll choose any number of transitions.
Discussion Question (Please Answer Below:)+ Show Spoiler +I mention in step one that I meta-game protoss by building a baneling nest, and they hopefully build more cannons at home. Would it be more effective to build/cancel a roach warren? Mimicking a leenock-like roach/ling or roach all-in might convince toss to build a lot of cannons.
This style is also featured on vVvShaft's Stream Show "Meta-Game Magic:" http://www.twitch.tv/theonlyshaft/b/303148570
Thank you for your time!
-Tang
Update: This strategy has been proving more effective than I expected, with a lot of viable transitions. It takes a while to get used to the multitasking/timings, but it's definitely something that can be done for lower and higher tier players.
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Thanks for the work! I will write feedback tomorrow as it is too late now ;-)
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Sorry I don't have any replays for you but I have two small points of interest to mention.
Firstly I think that even if no damage can be done with the drop itself, the map control you gain with the threat of drops can be an excellent advantage. I think it was the second game where you yourself said that you should have retreated the lings of your first drop after he had the void out and the damage was done. Conserving units in such a case seems like the best way to maintain that map control.
The second point i have may be a queer one, so forgive me, but since you get such an early overlord speed, overlord drop, and lair, do you think sticking an extra queen in an overlord and sending it around the map to create random creep tumors on the map or in your opponents base is worthwhile? (using the creep spew ability)
If one queen places 3 creep tumors at 3 different locations, the amount of ground they can cover is pretty large. It includes your opponents future expansions, map edges which are needed for any surprise air attack, and the front of your opponents natural, which gives you further vision of his units and a potential speed advantage if the time comes. One queen is equivalent to 6 zerglings, which though provide fast vision are eventually eclipsed in usefulness by the nomadic queen and her tumors, and when adequate creep tumors have been placed, the queen can simply jet back to the third or fourth base to be recycled as a larva spitting queen.
That's my two cents anyway,
Cheers
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thanx for sharing the results of your work, tang  . Quite enjoyable stuff
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Any player opening with a gateway build will have warp tech done at around 8:15, I can't see this working against that style of opening. If he holds your drop with minimal probe losses, he'll counter you right away and you'll probably die since you're spending all of your money on drones + 3rd.
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On December 15 2011 06:25 chadissilent wrote:
Any player opening with a gateway build will have warp tech done at around 8:15, I can't see this working against that style of opening. If he holds your drop with minimal probe losses, he'll counter you right away and you'll probably die since you're spending all of your money on drones + 3rd.
He clearly states it's a build meant to be aggressive vs a forge FE.
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On December 15 2011 07:23 Venomsflame wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:25 chadissilent wrote:
Any player opening with a gateway build will have warp tech done at around 8:15, I can't see this working against that style of opening. If he holds your drop with minimal probe losses, he'll counter you right away and you'll probably die since you're spending all of your money on drones + 3rd. He clearly states it's a build meant to be aggressive vs a forge FE.
A FFE into 6+ gate is a gateway build.
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FFE can have WG tech done by ~7:30, but the metagaming with 1-base baneling might slow it down a little if P reacts poorly. The cannons shouldn't slow down WG tech because against 14/14, P can easily get gate before cannon, but extra cannons will slow down subsequent gates slightly, so the first warp-in might not be a full round. That said, if P stays on top of his macro, he'll be able to defend the drop without losing much at all unless he goes for a pure tech build (something like double SG or SG straight to robo).
IMO, it's a coin-flippy all-in, but it's probably worth knowing how to do.
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I like it but I would prefer more replays where you lose and how to counter it, triggers when to use and when not.
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On December 15 2011 08:14 kcdc wrote:
FFE can have WG tech done by ~7:30, but the metagaming with 1-base baneling might slow it down a little if P reacts poorly. The cannons shouldn't slow down WG tech because against 14/14, P can easily get gate before cannon, but extra cannons will slow down subsequent gates slightly, so the first warp-in might not be a full round. That said, if P stays on top of his macro, he'll be able to defend the drop without losing much at all unless he goes for a pure tech build (something like double SG or SG straight to robo).
IMO, it's a coin-flippy all-in, but it's probably worth knowing how to do.
I've had 7 zealots and a sentry walk into my base at 7:15 with 6 more zealots warping in behind them. Now THAT's fucking terrifying.
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On December 15 2011 09:10 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:14 kcdc wrote:
FFE can have WG tech done by ~7:30, but the metagaming with 1-base baneling might slow it down a little if P reacts poorly. The cannons shouldn't slow down WG tech because against 14/14, P can easily get gate before cannon, but extra cannons will slow down subsequent gates slightly, so the first warp-in might not be a full round. That said, if P stays on top of his macro, he'll be able to defend the drop without losing much at all unless he goes for a pure tech build (something like double SG or SG straight to robo).
IMO, it's a coin-flippy all-in, but it's probably worth knowing how to do. I've had 7 zealots and a sentry walk into my base at 7:15 with 6 more zealots warping in behind them. Now THAT's fucking terrifying.
Haha that's not FFE though, that's this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=244731
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On December 15 2011 09:20 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 09:10 chadissilent wrote:On December 15 2011 08:14 kcdc wrote:
FFE can have WG tech done by ~7:30, but the metagaming with 1-base baneling might slow it down a little if P reacts poorly. The cannons shouldn't slow down WG tech because against 14/14, P can easily get gate before cannon, but extra cannons will slow down subsequent gates slightly, so the first warp-in might not be a full round. That said, if P stays on top of his macro, he'll be able to defend the drop without losing much at all unless he goes for a pure tech build (something like double SG or SG straight to robo).
IMO, it's a coin-flippy all-in, but it's probably worth knowing how to do. I've had 7 zealots and a sentry walk into my base at 7:15 with 6 more zealots warping in behind them. Now THAT's fucking terrifying. Haha that's not FFE though, that's this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=244731
Nope, it's off FFE and is the most terrifying 6 gate I've ever seen. One of my practice partners developed this build and there is almost no way to hold it if you take a fast 3rd. He was going to post it on TL but I persuaded him not to. The scariest thing about it? He can follow with DTs by 9:00-9:30. You name the Zerg player and my friend has probably beat them with it on ladder. He took down ViBe and Machine with it while waiting for his next match when we were at a LAN.
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Good tactic, drop play is very strong and certanily underused. I think you got something going on here, you might want to work on those multidrops, that is to drop at 2 or more places at once. You could add queens to spread creep inside your opponents base, this will force observers which is good because they will often go for that stargate when expanding.
Other then that just work on your micro, you can devide your lings so some of them will snipe perhaps a citadel where as the other lings focus on probes or pylons.
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I was also working on a drop play against FFE including 6 Queens and 14 Roaches by around 10:30, but it didn't work out as well, mostly because Protosses on plat don't play as greedy as on higher levels.
You are dropping at 8:30 with 16 Lings in his main. If he went 6-8gate, wouldn't he have gates up by that time? Because just like 4 or 5 warped in Zealots would ruin your drop. Wouldn't 6-8 roaches be much more effective than Speedlings?
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Hi Tang,
I am definitely feeling more confident using ling drop zvp, particularly because I'm getting a full scout of the opponent's tech. It was really impressive to watch your example games and I want to thank you for the work you're putting in. In particular, I love your macroing at home while the attack is being carried out - I just can't do anything like that! (my APM is like *low*), but I definitely get my gasses and a hydra den at least (working on the expo, ups, and spending the larva I have).
I have tried this style once or twice after seeing something Husky casted of one of the top Zergs, I forget who, and thought 'yeah, that's what I'd like to do, I mean, what do greedy protosses even *have* at this stage'. So following your build order, although I get an 11pool 18 hatch which puts me a tad behind you in drones at the natural, has really helped me time things out just right and I find myself wanting to do this every game (other than in 2 or 4 gate plays). I find that if I start ventral sacs and then ling speed with the next 100 (then ovie movement with then next 100) I can comfortably drop at 8.15. I tried it yesterday against a 3 gate expand player, and even though they had sentries and units, I continued the aggression with a hydra ling drop immediately after and killed all his units. Hurrah!
Thanks again.
btw watched your vid on the roaches vs terran and have been trying that too! The only thing it lost to is mass marine and that's because I didn't scout well enough.
Best
Stardoid
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High Masters P here:
It basically boils down to this:
If toss goes for any sort of gateway pressure, the strat puts Z far behind. (It is coin-flippy and all-in)
WG finishes 7:30/7:45 for gateway timings. So either they scout the drop and warp units into base and is ahead because Z isnt on 3 base OR some funky base trade situations can happen if drop hits at just the time after offensive warpin.
-GoSu.349
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On December 16 2011 11:09 GleaM wrote:
High Masters P here:
It basically boils down to this:
If toss goes for any sort of gateway pressure, the strat puts Z far behind. (It is coin-flippy and all-in)
WG finishes 7:30/7:45 for gateway timings. So either they scout the drop and warp units into base and is ahead because Z isnt on 3 base OR some funky base trade situations can happen if drop hits at just the time after offensive warpin.
-GoSu.349
Hey GoSu thanks for the info, I've been wondering how it'll fare against FFE into 6-7gateways, like you mentioned I've run into a few base-race situations and had the lings shut down with relatively low damage a few times. While the zerglings do get shut down by gateway units pretty easy, but one trend I've noticed is if you drop the main with lings he will usually bring probes to his expansion to save them. If I plant another overlord near the expansion and drop 4-8 banes 20seconds after the zergling drop, I can sometimes pick off expansion probes (Something like this: http://drop.sc/75173)
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Has anyone practiced with this or a similar style? I need more replays for my guide and would appreciate any contributions <3
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On December 17 2011 10:29 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 11:09 GleaM wrote:
High Masters P here:
It basically boils down to this:
If toss goes for any sort of gateway pressure, the strat puts Z far behind. (It is coin-flippy and all-in)
WG finishes 7:30/7:45 for gateway timings. So either they scout the drop and warp units into base and is ahead because Z isnt on 3 base OR some funky base trade situations can happen if drop hits at just the time after offensive warpin.
-GoSu.349 Hey GoSu thanks for the info, I've been wondering how it'll fare against FFE into 6-7gateways, like you mentioned I've run into a few base-race situations and had the lings shut down with relatively low damage a few times. While the zerglings do get shut down by gateway units pretty easy, but one trend I've noticed is if you drop the main with lings he will usually bring probes to his expansion to save them. If I plant another overlord near the expansion and drop 4-8 banes 20seconds after the zergling drop, I can sometimes pick off expansion probes (Something like this: http://drop.sc/75173)
I know what you're saying, and it could be a pretty good strategy. But as I said before, its kinda coin-flipping. This isn't like normal harass that if it gets shut down you can continue to macro. If this kind of thing gets shut down, Z loses to every timing that P has, or if Z continues to produce units, his eco is much too weak and he loses the late game 100%.
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A great way to do a fast drop build imo is the one colFirezerg uses, outlined in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256643. I usually do it off of 14 gas 14 pool (cancel speed for lair) rather than a weird 13 pool 16 gas but the rest of the build seems to be outlined decently in that thread ^. The cons of this build is that you skip speed for a long time so it's much harder to deny information from an aggressively scouting toss.
Edit: forgot to mention, with this build you should have ovy drop, ovy speed, ling speed, and bane nest finishing all within ~10 in game seconds of each other.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jIgby.jpg)
