EPT++for NRGMonk for using a flying barracks to pick off my overlord on top of that high ground two days ago.
[G] Leenock's ZvP All-In: 10 Roach Rush - Page 4
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
++for NRGMonk for using a flying barracks to pick off my overlord on top of that high ground two days ago. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
 and to comment above I feel if protoss times their extra cannons well if it's roach aggression you've already made the roaches destroying your economy because you don't see much defence but his cannons come up in time to stop aggression. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 02 2012 10:16 jimbob615 wrote: Hi Tang, nice guide. I have an idea: what if instead of mining gas with 1 drone, you ceased to mine after the first 100. And then, wait until the timing lines up and at the correct moment put 3 drones back on gas. This way the enemy probe won't be able to scout any mining gas. Secondly you'll have slightly more mins then gas early game which might help slightly. As far as ease of use I think one drone is better but I'm thinking in ultimate build terms. You might end up with one less roach, but it's not a bad idea. I'd have to experiment with it to see whether you can still get enough roaches when the warren finishes. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On March 02 2012 14:17 TORTOISE wrote: Roach Warren (4:20). Its a sign. Great insight, can't believe nobody noticed. I guess this build is completely trashed now. Terrific post. | ||
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On March 02 2012 23:08 ThePianoDentist wrote: The only problem with zergs on ladder (or master level eu ladder at least) is at least 90% of players who get gas all-in and at least 90% of players who don't get gas don't all-in. To keep protoss honest more zerg players need to get gas just for the zergling speed and still play a macro game. Nowadays I assume gas indicates an all-in and I am so careful, 2nd cannon even with 0 scouting that these attacks very rarely break me. I know it's bad play to prepare for something that may or may not come if you don't get a scout of but that's zerg players fault for being too 1-dimensional in ladder metagame and to comment above I feel if protoss times their extra cannons well if it's roach aggression you've already made the roaches destroying your economy because you don't see much defence but his cannons come up in time to stop aggression. Taking no gas before 6:00 versus taking early gas. What good does early gas do? You will have 4 zerglings out at most. You will be able to deny (or at least spot) any probe walking out to proxy a pylon somewhere with or without speed. If you take gas at 6:00 you will still have speed before it becomes viable. Or am I missing something here? | ||
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Girondelle
France969 Posts
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On March 02 2012 23:24 kaluro wrote: Taking no gas before 6:00 versus taking early gas. What good does early gas do? You will have 4 zerglings out at most. You will be able to deny (or at least spot) any probe walking out to proxy a pylon somewhere with or without speed. If you take gas at 6:00 you will still have speed before it becomes viable. Or am I missing something here? but will you be able to stop a suicide probe getting a read on no third base, let alone no natural...I doubt it? also what is the timing for first zealot out...assuming he send it across the map can you stop this zealot getting a scout off? this is why I feel delayed gas all-ins are a big gamble. You are relying on the protoss player scouting no initial gas and becoming complacent. If the protoss player is persistent with his scouting I cannot see how the delayed gas all-in can work barring a major fuck-up from the protoss player | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On March 02 2012 23:26 Girondelle wrote: To all the toss out there, a nice tip to see if the zerg is all ining you: with 14/14 speed finishes around 5:10min, so until then keep your probe alive and do not try to scout the hatchery, instead just go in the main, click on the extractor and see how much gaz has been mined. If the count is under 2400 prepare for some kind of bust or ridiculously fast lair. Great tip, very true. When protoss or terran scout zerg early, one of the most important things is to check gas timing and how much is being mined. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On March 02 2012 23:26 Girondelle wrote: To all the toss out there, a nice tip to see if the zerg is all ining you: with 14/14 speed finishes around 5:10min, so until then keep your probe alive and do not try to scout the hatchery, instead just go in the main, click on the extractor and see how much gaz has been mined. If the count is under 2400 prepare for some kind of bust or ridiculously fast lair. But do I want to spam 5 cannons against fast lair? Elaborate more please. Btw guys, are you sure 1 -amove zealot to 3rd, 1-2 hidden probes +1 scouting probes will not get into main or nat when you have only 6 speedlings? (I'm trying testing this right now) Someone might comment I'm doing something wrong but I always hide my hatchery block probe and go to his nat again and then see his gas, I also get 1 zealot asap rallied to his 3rd with a-move and clean watchtower in midway if possible (liek shattered temple) then head it to natural. (I usually get Zealot>Zealot > Sentry > sentry and go for hreoic +1 FFE). I think I would start pulling hidden probes if I didn't see anything so far but even if I see something theres like 30-50second reaction time I think and cannon takes 40seconds. What kind of simcity would I want with this? And most importantly, how many cannons? Just few of my instant thoughts. Mainly just imagining a zealot walking across map where is 6 speedlings ~ spread out, then sending them to zealot while my probe happily goes to his nat and main. | ||
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Northern_iight
Canada363 Posts
I had no choice but to back off. I droned pretty hard but he moved out with immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot. Pretty hard to beat when you're stuck on roach ling because you have to drone very hard to catch up. At the time of the attack i have 14 drones while he has 28. I do no damage because of the 3 cannons and sentries (well I sniped the forge). I ask after how he knew it was coming and he said since u get gas and deny scouting so hard he puts a 3rd cannon up anyways. This worked for me when the player aren't as safe, but against a player that knows what he is doing, this is too all in. It's not like the ZvT roach ling attack as that has more drones and not as all in. I don't think I will be doing this as much anymore. but will continue to gas first, get speed and pull just to deny scouting and hope to force extra defense and slow their tech/econ. This is a good tournament build when it's a BO series. I don't think it's useful on ladder. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On March 02 2012 23:48 Northern_iight wrote: i just tried this on ladder. I denied all scouting possible, I even built my 3rd and his probe scouted it. I never build at natural and he tried to send a probe in but my speedlings picked him off before going up the ramp. When i arrived with the roaches I find 3 cannons and a sentry with more sentries being chronoboosted. I had no choice but to back off. I droned pretty hard but he moved out with immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot. Pretty hard to beat when you're stuck on roach ling because you have to drone very hard to catch up. At the time of the attack i have 14 drones while he has 28. I do no damage because of the 3 cannons and sentries (well I sniped the forge). I ask after how he knew it was coming and he said since u get gas and deny scouting so hard he puts a 3rd cannon up anyways. This worked for me when the player aren't as safe, but against a player that knows what he is doing, this is too all in. It's not like the ZvT roach ling attack as that has more drones and not as all in. I don't think I will be doing this as much anymore. but will continue to gas first, get speed and pull just to deny scouting and hope to force extra defense and slow their tech/econ. This is a good tournament build when it's a BO series. I don't think it's useful on ladder. Could we please have a replay about this? | ||
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Grayboosh
United States68 Posts
On March 02 2012 08:11 Oboeman wrote: He usually won't have enough forcefields. You are correct that the timing lines up with warpgate and void ray. In the replay I posted, warpgate finished just as I was attacking, and he had a void ray out, and it didn't matter. If toss builds a bunch of extra cannons, they repel it quite easily, but without the cannons, they still die. If you want to hit earlier, you can cut more drones, letting you bank more money for the roaches. That works too, but you'll have fewer lings later on. It's still intended to be an all in, despite having more hatcheries. They just give it more reinforcing power. You have the option of scouting his wall off before committing to zerglings, and you can drone behind it if he cannoned up, but you'll be behind anyway because you made the roaches. I kinda like this variation, except I do think it's better to hit earlier. I don't see the point of getting your gas earlier for earlier speed, then cancelling your hatch, which they would have no way of seeing anyway since you got early ling speed. If you're going to cancel the hatch, then let them see it, and hold off on your gas for as long as possible. | ||
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IMSpecies
United States3 Posts
On March 02 2012 23:48 Northern_iight wrote: i just tried this on ladder. I denied all scouting possible, I even built my 3rd and his probe scouted it. I never build at natural and he tried to send a probe in but my speedlings picked him off before going up the ramp. When i arrived with the roaches I find 3 cannons and a sentry with more sentries being chronoboosted. I have not encountered such a blind overreaction using this build. (I've been using it every game versus Protoss for a few days). He must have smelled something, or is randomly blind countering roach busts. I had no choice but to back off. I droned pretty hard but he moved out with immortal/sentry/stalker/zealot. Pretty hard to beat when you're stuck on roach ling because you have to drone very hard to catch up. At the time of the attack i have 14 drones while he has 28. I do no damage because of the 3 cannons and sentries (well I sniped the forge). I ask after how he knew it was coming and he said since u get gas and deny scouting so hard he puts a 3rd cannon up anyways. Agreed that it is nearly impossible to win if the roach bust fails. This worked for me when the player aren't as safe, but against a player that knows what he is doing, this is too all in. It's not like the ZvT roach ling attack as that has more drones and not as all in. I don't know. Even most Protoss who know what they are doing are playing extremely greedy versus Zerg atm, and have a good chance of falling to this roach bust. Sure the attack is all in, but it is extremely strong if they are not prepared. I don't think I will be doing this as much anymore. but will continue to gas first, get speed and pull just to deny scouting and hope to force extra defense and slow their tech/econ. This is a good tournament build when it's a BO series. I don't think it's useful on ladder. My win rate on ladder with this build has been nearly 100% over about 15 or so games. I think it is very useful on ladder. Will it work every single time? No. However I think in the current metagame it should win you the game 8/10 assuming they FFE. | ||
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ThePianoDentist
United Kingdom698 Posts
On March 02 2012 23:46 Ryndika wrote: But do I want to spam 5 cannons against fast lair? Elaborate more please. Btw guys, are you sure 1 -amove zealot to 3rd, 1-2 hidden probes +1 scouting probes will not get into main or nat when you have only 6 speedlings? (I'm trying testing this right now) Someone might comment I'm doing something wrong but I always hide my hatchery block probe and go to his nat again and then see his gas, I also get 1 zealot asap rallied to his 3rd with a-move and clean watchtower in midway if possible (liek shattered temple) then head it to natural. (I usually get Zealot>Zealot > Sentry > sentry and go for hreoic +1 FFE). I think I would start pulling hidden probes if I didn't see anything so far but even if I see something theres like 30-50second reaction time I think and cannon takes 40seconds. What kind of simcity would I want with this? And most importantly, how many cannons? Just few of my instant thoughts. Mainly just imagining a zealot walking across map where is 6 speedlings ~ spread out, then sending them to zealot while my probe happily goes to his nat and main. good zergs will in the time before you first zealot can come out have one ling outside your base watching for probes trying to leave and the rest will be scouring the map looking for your hidden probe. hiding a probe is certainly the correct thing to do but many zergs will find it. hence why i always make at least a second cannon, chrono sentries and solidify wall versus gas openings incase i cannot scout but still have a chance to hold . if he is playing a macro game anyway then i am more than happy making an extra cannon after he's chosen zergling speed over drones. 5 cannons may be overdoing it. I find 3 cannons is usually enough for me to hold versus roaches or banelings (number of cannons is obviously just one factor in holding. the wall is just as if not more important, once the wall is broken and they can run by it's almost gg)....against fast lair i don't find this excessive, obviously if you can scout the lair wonderful but otherwise fair lair is sacrificing a fair bit of economy so having an extra cannon or two isn't the end of the world. just try and see how few cannons you can get away with, if you die try an extra cannon next time until you find a number you feel comfortable with...as you can always start backup cannons once you know it's not gas for fast lair. | ||
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Spec
Taiwan931 Posts
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Northern_iight
Canada363 Posts
http://drop.sc/124984 jsut played a ZvP on TDA where I open 14/14 and denied all scouting but did a simple speedling expand into normal macro game. I checked replay to see his reaction to all the denied scouting. He did have a pylon above the clife at my 3rd and saw my 3rd building. I knocked it out before my hatch finished but it was kinda late and to the timing of a real 3rd. Assuming I was doing what i did before he had little on defense. If I was doing this build, I would've crushed him with this attack. He had 1 cannon, 1 zealot and 1 stalker at around 7:30 mark and a sentry on the way. I think i'll give this build another shot | ||
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bingobango
26 Posts
http://blip.tv/day9tv/ahgl-geek-squad-vs-facebook-game-3-season-2-week-4-starcraft-2-5944811 | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On March 02 2012 11:50 Host- wrote: 1) Could you transition and expand after the roaches and lings are out? If you cancel the hatch, your all in. Unless you completely cripple the Tosser, you can't really transition from this. You either break him or you don't. He either has enough cannons/forcefield to hold his expansion - in which case you are superdead even if you have your expansion up and droned behind the opening, or he doesn't have enough cannons and dies. The only "in-between" scenario where you would actually have to transition is if he manages to wall his main in with cannons and get warp-gate or a stargate up, in which case you failed your control. | ||
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qwertyindeed
151 Posts
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Champ121
United Kingdom6 Posts
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