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On May 23 2012 23:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 23:11 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 23:01 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 22:19 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 11:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 09:59 TangSC wrote:On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote:
I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out? a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there. I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172 I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick. I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information. seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout.
Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush.
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I play at a Master level and tried this twice today, got FACESTOMPED both times, like wasn't even moderately close to winning. They know something is fishy when they see speedlings preventing their scout and they promptly get cannons / sentries.
I think its almost better to meta-game them by getting the speed, denying scout, and going like 4 bases with mass drone while they are sitting back scared (if you are playing someone good enough to actually have game sense and realize and all-in might be coming)
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On May 24 2012 06:55 ChosenSC2 wrote:
I play at a Master level and tried this twice today, got FACESTOMPED both times, like wasn't even moderately close to winning. They know something is fishy when they see speedlings preventing their scout and they promptly get cannons / sentries.
I think its almost better to meta-game them by getting the speed, denying scout, and going like 4 bases with mass drone while they are sitting back scared (if you are playing someone good enough to actually have game sense and realize and all-in might be coming)
basically this. Same here, I use to do this in masters as well. But once they see gas first they auto throw down 2-3 cannons and sentries. When you get speed so early protoss just skip their initial harass with zealot/stalker and proceed with their tech. All ins are really tough to execute these days with ZvP
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On May 24 2012 06:24 MaryJoana wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2012 23:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 23:11 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 23:01 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 22:19 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 11:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 09:59 TangSC wrote:On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote:
I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out? a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there. I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172 I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick. I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information. seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout. Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush.
I've actually tried out a bunch of variations like 3 hatch into 10 roaches, but I'm not sure what the best one would be. Typically around 20 gas or a later double gas seems to be good.
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On May 24 2012 10:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 06:24 MaryJoana wrote:On May 23 2012 23:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 23:11 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 23:01 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 22:19 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 11:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 09:59 TangSC wrote:On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote:
I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out? a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there. I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172 I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick. I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information. seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout. Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush. I've actually tried out a bunch of variations like 3 hatch into 10 roaches, but I'm not sure what the best one would be. Typically around 20 gas or a later double gas seems to be good.
Banelings work best off three hatch, in my opinion: LiquidZenio's 3Hatch Ling/Bane All-In
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On May 24 2012 23:47 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 10:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 24 2012 06:24 MaryJoana wrote:On May 23 2012 23:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 23:11 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 23:01 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 22:19 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 11:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 09:59 TangSC wrote:On May 22 2012 03:41 godsend1 wrote:
I've done this a few times on ladder, just feels like (in high diamond/sometimes play masters) that as soon as prot sees the gas they just throw down 3 cannons and chrono sentries. After that it's pretty hard to kill them.
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out? a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there. I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172 I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick. I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information. seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout. Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush. I've actually tried out a bunch of variations like 3 hatch into 10 roaches, but I'm not sure what the best one would be. Typically around 20 gas or a later double gas seems to be good. Banelings work best off three hatch, in my opinion: LiquidZenio's 3Hatch Ling/Bane All-In
Yeah, as an all-in. Roaches let you pressure while droning behind it, which is why I've tried out variations like that.
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On May 26 2012 12:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 23:47 TangSC wrote:On May 24 2012 10:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 24 2012 06:24 MaryJoana wrote:On May 23 2012 23:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 23:11 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 23:01 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 22:19 TangSC wrote:On May 23 2012 11:35 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 23 2012 09:59 TangSC wrote:
[quote]
I don't think scouting gas alone is enough reason to build 3 cannons and chronoboost sentries - are you sure they're not scouting your roaches as they move out? a gas pool opening almost always sends off alarms to protoss players. have you actually played games with this build lately? it's very common to see people drop multiple cannons after seeing a gas, because they know they are ahead even if you decide to take a third from there. I really don't think it's as common as you say, perhaps you could provide links to professional players who drop 3+ cannons in response to gas-first? In my experience, it's not common at all to drop multiple cannons after seeing gas. In fact, I use a variety of gas-first builds against protoss that do not involve an early bust. Blindly building 3 cannons and chrono-boosting sentries is an incorrect response and will result in a build-order loss against openings like this: http://drop.sc/185172 I'm aware that it's bad against stuff like zenio's hydra opener or even 2 base muta, but it's exactly what naniwa does every time he sees an early gas and tons of people copy that on ladder. I've even had people do it when the gas I made was actually just for a random extractor trick. I've never seen Naniwa do it :S it's bad against a lot more than those 2 builds. I just think it's a mistake, they should chronoboost 2 zealots and respond based on the information they gather. If they scout speedlings, then yes definitely put down an extra cannon or two and chronoboost your first sentry. An early gas geyser alone is not enough information. seeing gas that early is essentially the same as seeing speedlings. which is what they will see when playing against every all-in like this. I forgot to mention I like to do a variation of this in reaction to people who over-commit to cannon rushing and I saw spanishiwa do it as well, you really don't need the speedlings anyway especially now that you can deny all scouting with the new range queens. The roaches are enough to cripple someone and you can just drone behind it with 2-3 hatches. When I do that I usually get gas a lot later which makes it much harder to scout. Can you elaborate as to the BO? I'd be really interested, now with the new Queens I can see that it may be possible to go speedless roach rush. I've actually tried out a bunch of variations like 3 hatch into 10 roaches, but I'm not sure what the best one would be. Typically around 20 gas or a later double gas seems to be good. Banelings work best off three hatch, in my opinion: LiquidZenio's 3Hatch Ling/Bane All-In Yeah, as an all-in. Roaches let you pressure while droning behind it, which is why I've tried out variations like that.
you can do the roach all in with 3 hatch as well! The 3rd hatch just replaces the 2nd queen and is all about mind gaming.
http://drop.sc/183278
I don't really recommend trying to drone behind roach pressure. you almost always end up with a smaller worker lead than if you had just skipped the roaches anyway (unless you win outright from the roaches).
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It would be very difficult to transition out of this should it fail I think.
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Impossible to transition out of this, I would argue. Still a good build to have in your repertoire though! I used it a few times this season.
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On September 19 2012 05:08 TangSC wrote:
Impossible to transition out of this, I would argue. Still a good build to have in your repertoire though! I used it a few times this season.
Isn't the 14 gas a giveaway? You cant deny scouting before that no?
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Speed is sometimes gotten by Z's v P, so it isn't a perfect tell. I for one used this build to prop up my terrible ZvP all the way into mid masters, it is very very strong.
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On September 19 2012 05:13 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2012 05:08 TangSC wrote:
Impossible to transition out of this, I would argue. Still a good build to have in your repertoire though! I used it a few times this season. Isn't the 14 gas a giveaway? You cant deny scouting before that no?
You can't deny scouting of gas-first, but there are a wide array of options available to the player who opens 14g/14p.
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I'm a low to mid master zerg and I've given this build a few goes in custom games. In my experience you can easily experience a build order loss on all maps but ohana due to toss's strongly reacting to 14 gas (not necesarily the best thing for them to do). On ohana this strategy is much less hit and miss and the toss really needs to prepare for you back rocks change allot and the short rush distance helps. I wouldn't use this as your only zvp strat but in a bo3 where Ohana comes up it's certainly a build worth throwing in. As ever thanks for the build tang <3
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I have recently started doing a bad variation of this vs 1 gate expos. No reason not to really, it is almost guaranteed to flood a Protoss out of his unsafe expansion when properly executed, even with my horribly late gas (I scout on 13, so usually see the gateway around the 15 supply mark when I'm taking my nat).
Definitely not optimal, and not deserving of it's own thread, but it borrows a lot of ideas from this build.
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When was the last time this build worked for anyone? I can't believe I used to die to this. I can't believe good Protoss used to die to this.
If there is no 3rd at 4:30, it's cannon time. Cancel whatever you have queued in the gate and pump sentries. If they bail and try to transition (research hallucination to be sure). A slightly late sentry immortal all in wins 95% of the time.
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You can do a 7 roach rush that hatches at 4:50 or so off of an 11 overpool that looks completely innocuous until it hits. I think that the timing on this 10 roach rush is a little late and the early gas telegraphs hard that something is up, and they have ample, ample time to react.
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On October 13 2012 04:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
I have recently started doing a bad variation of this vs 1 gate expos. No reason not to really, it is almost guaranteed to flood a Protoss out of his unsafe expansion when properly executed, even with my horribly late gas (I scout on 13, so usually see the gateway around the 15 supply mark when I'm taking my nat).
Definitely not optimal, and not deserving of it's own thread, but it borrows a lot of ideas from this build.
I occasionally mix this in against Gateway expand as well. Some weird games develop when they try to 4gate and are forced into their base.
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As a protoss, gas before 3rd means I'm expecting some kind of all in. Seems easily scoutable to me, and not hard to hold. Drop extra cannons and you're pretty much safe.
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On October 18 2012 22:38 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 04:31 Jermstuddog wrote:
I have recently started doing a bad variation of this vs 1 gate expos. No reason not to really, it is almost guaranteed to flood a Protoss out of his unsafe expansion when properly executed, even with my horribly late gas (I scout on 13, so usually see the gateway around the 15 supply mark when I'm taking my nat).
Definitely not optimal, and not deserving of it's own thread, but it borrows a lot of ideas from this build. I occasionally mix this in against Gateway expand as well. Some weird games develop when they try to 4gate and are forced into their base.
From the other side of the fence, as someone who goes 13 gate 15 gas Stalker-Nexus-Stalker, if I scout gas I don't even pressure the zerg. I just try to take my watchtower and maybe poke the other one for a second, then go back home and wall off. I also get a Stargate in that situation 100% of the time because a Void Ray puts a clock on the push and will always get charged against Roaches, and then when I take a third I can use that and a handful of Zealots to either clear the way or force a lot of non-drones. This also makes me safe against Nydus play by killing nearby overlords, and Mutas by going into Phoenixes afterward--and then I have a really good way to scout and harass the Zerg because of air control. So, that's the textbook response for a 1Gate Stalker Expo.
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EPT
