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On March 24 2012 02:32 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 13:00 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 07 2012 03:46 TangSC wrote:Wouldn't mind links to JulyZerg's 6Roach / Speedling rush against FFE too. July played a match on entombed about a month or two ago using that build. It's basically just a speedling expand where you cut drones after the expansion (~20), then make a roach warren and pull off gas after you have 150 (plus the 100 you mined for speed). It's incredibly simple and transitions better than the earlier builds, while hitting faster than the old school style Losira and others used almost a year ago. It unfortunately suffers from being slow enough that they can defend it with Void Rays and they can see it coming due to the need for an early gas. I have seen a hatch first variation (I think Terious did it against Huk on bel'shir beach) that utilizes a proxy hatch (15 hatch no less) for the roaches, though that likely throws even more alarm bells in a protoss who knows pool/gas timings. I've had it work mostly when I sent an early drone to proxy, then faked a 15 hatch at my natural and let them deny it while I made my pool/gas in the main, which can really throw off some players. That's exactly what I was thinking - The beauty of Leenock's build is stargate openings won't get a Vray out in time, I feel like any later openings can be shut down by air. Haha you fake a hatch first, then proxy hatch all-in? I'd have to see it in action but I like the idea.
I found the vod of the build by bumblebeeprime (aka terious)
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66833/?set=3&lang=
It's a very funny build, to be sure.
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On March 24 2012 05:59 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 02:32 TangSC wrote:On March 23 2012 13:00 oOOoOphidian wrote:On March 07 2012 03:46 TangSC wrote:Wouldn't mind links to JulyZerg's 6Roach / Speedling rush against FFE too. July played a match on entombed about a month or two ago using that build. It's basically just a speedling expand where you cut drones after the expansion (~20), then make a roach warren and pull off gas after you have 150 (plus the 100 you mined for speed). It's incredibly simple and transitions better than the earlier builds, while hitting faster than the old school style Losira and others used almost a year ago. It unfortunately suffers from being slow enough that they can defend it with Void Rays and they can see it coming due to the need for an early gas. I have seen a hatch first variation (I think Terious did it against Huk on bel'shir beach) that utilizes a proxy hatch (15 hatch no less) for the roaches, though that likely throws even more alarm bells in a protoss who knows pool/gas timings. I've had it work mostly when I sent an early drone to proxy, then faked a 15 hatch at my natural and let them deny it while I made my pool/gas in the main, which can really throw off some players. That's exactly what I was thinking - The beauty of Leenock's build is stargate openings won't get a Vray out in time, I feel like any later openings can be shut down by air. Haha you fake a hatch first, then proxy hatch all-in? I'd have to see it in action but I like the idea. I found the vod of the build by bumblebeeprime (aka terious) http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66833/?set=3&lang=It's a very funny build, to be sure.
Doh! I don't have a GSL ticket, thanks for posting it though.
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On March 05 2012 18:10 cassurai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 07:21 TangSC wrote:On March 05 2012 04:10 cassurai wrote:
This is the simple counter to this.
This isn't as hard to scout as people think. Sure, I won't be able to see the Hatch cancel or the Roach warren or stuff like that, but you have to know that there are other indicators that experienced P players will look for.
These are the things you aren't hiding that will definitely set off alarm bells in a P player's head.
- You went gas first on a map where FFE is absolutely standard.
- You continue to mine gas with 1 drone even after 100 gas have been mined and after you scouted my FFE.
- You made 6 lings instead of 4 (this isn't that big a deal, but it's still something I'd notice).
- You are very diligently denying scouting (again doesn't equal cheese, but I'd have further reason to suspect cheese).
The first 2 points above are absolutely MAJOR indicators for experienced P players (> mid-Masters). There is little reason why you would go for the LEAST economic opening possible on a FFE map. Heck, even if you 6, 8, or 10 pool, it makes more sense than gas first on a FFE map. And there is even less reason why you would mine extra gas after 100. When I see this I will get Stargate immediately after Core is done, throw up an extra cannon (maybe even 2), and patrol probes around my main to watch for Nyduses. If my first Force Field is well put, I have a very good chance of holding. With 3 cannons it should be absolutely no problem. Some crisis management will be needed if I have only 2 cannons (e.g. need to build additional buildings near Nexus). And once the VR is out it's easily held. Make Stargate above the ramp obviously.
Edit: I'd like to say I haven't watched the replays, but I've stopped this on the Ladder a few times before (NA Masters). I don't mean to put you down or say that this build sucks. It's of course good to have it in your arsenal. Heck, it's always good to have some all-ins in your arsenal. Your guide is well written. I didn't even have to look at the BO. Your pictures were good enough for me to understand the entire build and that's something that makes this guide better than most others. The only thing I feel is that it really isn't as hard to scout as you make it seem to be. Good advice in terms of gas scouting and Stargate. I think the way you look at it is the way most protoss players should look at it, but that doesn't mean they do. Also zerg players can have multiple builds that look the same. For example in ZvP, I use 3 builds that open gas first and still single-mine gas until I chase away the probe. I don't think there is any economic build that goes gas first, mine 100 gas (I can click on extractor to check), and continue to single-mine gas. If you decide NOT to all-in after doing this, my extra cannon and Stargate will STILL put me way ahead. It's not like you're gaining anything by "pretending" to cheese here.
There are a few overlord drop builds that continue mining gas, and stargate openings aren't the greatest against this style because you need zealots to kill the lings fast enough.
EDIT: I'm also pretty sure you could just get speed and start droning afterwards and be even if protoss incorrectly goes for extra cannons and/or stargate.
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snute did some ling and blings drops off 2 bases, do you know of any drops builds with 2 bases?, like a drop jsut around warp gate timing
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On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote:
Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in
I mined 200gas to trick opponent, took speed to deny any scout, made 6lings and maxed 200/200 roaches 12:44. 600minerals to defend something that isn't coming is pretty commitment and youll also delay your antidrone attack so much too.
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On April 06 2012 06:45 Ryndika wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote:
Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in I mined 200gas to trick opponent, took speed to deny any scout, made 6lings and maxed 200/200 roaches 12:44. 600minerals to defend something that isn't coming is pretty commitment and youll also delay your antidrone attack so much too.
200 gas is about 100 seconds of mining time for 3 drones, or 1.66 minutes. 4 drones (since you'd have no extractor with standard play) mine about 42*1.66*4 = 280ish minerals, call it 300 with building the extractor. Plus that extra drone would be mining for about 4 minutes more if you take gas at 6 minutes instead of 2 (I think 1:40 is the actual 14/14 timing), that's another 160ish. So you lose at least 450 minerals compared to standard play.
So, even if the toss makes 3 extra cannons, you about break even in terms of money. Plus, your investment comes earlier, since the cannons are a reaction to you mining extra gas, so it hurts you more. Not to mention that you make 6 lings instead of the extra four, but that's really just stylistic.
The question is - is that map control worth it? I would say no, unless you want to all-in.
You can disagree, but you can't say that it's gonna put you ahead - are there any P's that make 5 cannons (you quoted 600 extra minerals) in response to seeing extra gas mined, with no RW?
Edit - 5 cannons meaning the normal 1+4 extra.
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On April 05 2012 12:31 qwertyindeed wrote:
snute did some ling and blings drops off 2 bases, do you know of any drops builds with 2 bases?, like a drop jsut around warp gate timing
Yes I do that style all the time, though I never wrote a full guide on it - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294983
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This is a really nice build lol
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On April 06 2012 09:54 Reqq wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 06:45 Ryndika wrote:On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote:
Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in I mined 200gas to trick opponent, took speed to deny any scout, made 6lings and maxed 200/200 roaches 12:44. 600minerals to defend something that isn't coming is pretty commitment and youll also delay your antidrone attack so much too. 200 gas is about 100 seconds of mining time for 3 drones, or 1.66 minutes. 4 drones (since you'd have no extractor with standard play) mine about 42*1.66*4 = 280ish minerals, call it 300 with building the extractor. Plus that extra drone would be mining for about 4 minutes more if you take gas at 6 minutes instead of 2 (I think 1:40 is the actual 14/14 timing), that's another 160ish. So you lose at least 450 minerals compared to standard play. So, even if the toss makes 3 extra cannons, you about break even in terms of money. Plus, your investment comes earlier, since the cannons are a reaction to you mining extra gas, so it hurts you more. Not to mention that you make 6 lings instead of the extra four, but that's really just stylistic. The question is - is that map control worth it? I would say no, unless you want to all-in. You can disagree, but you can't say that it's gonna put you ahead - are there any P's that make 5 cannons (you quoted 600 extra minerals) in response to seeing extra gas mined, with no RW? Edit - 5 cannons meaning the normal 1+4 extra.
Actually I think the value of having speed in the early game is much bigger than "map control". Protoss hate being kept in the dark, and early speedlings ensures he can't even scout whether you take a 3rd base.
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I use this in every vP now. I don't like doing it, but it sure is working.
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On April 14 2012 04:10 Zealos wrote:
I use this in every vP now. I don't like doing it, but it sure is working.
Should mix in a few macro styles too, at least Stephano's 4 Hatch Roach/Ling.
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Tang, should you pull off gas after you have enough gas to make 10 roaches, which is 250 gas i believe. in your images you're floating a bunch of gas you really don't need. and if no what's the purpose of keep the gas?
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On April 15 2012 07:15 Mario1209 wrote:
Tang, should you pull off gas after you have enough gas to make 10 roaches, which is 250 gas i believe. in your images you're floating a bunch of gas you really don't need. and if no what's the purpose of keep the gas?
You're definitely right, you should pull out of gas at 250, though the extra 3 drones mining won't really increase the effectiveness of your all-in. I usually do remove from gas, but I prioritize ensuring my roaches make it to his base without being detected by a probe or zealots (Active speedlings)
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I could vomit every time I see a Protoss since I know a 2 base all-in or pylon block cheese is comming. Time to bring the hurt back and induce a bit of rage in my enemies. Thanks for sharing!
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On April 15 2012 07:02 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 04:10 Zealos wrote:
I use this in every vP now. I don't like doing it, but it sure is working. Should mix in a few macro styles too, at least Stephano's 4 Hatch Roach/Ling.
I just get sad trying, they mass up immortals and stalkers off 2 base and a move me every game. I know it isn't imbalance, but I am just so terrible at the matchup even if I get a huge lead (Holding off a massive cannon rush with no losses ect) I'll lose in the end, so I just use this instead 
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On April 15 2012 23:47 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2012 07:02 TangSC wrote:On April 14 2012 04:10 Zealos wrote:
I use this in every vP now. I don't like doing it, but it sure is working. Should mix in a few macro styles too, at least Stephano's 4 Hatch Roach/Ling. I just get sad trying, they mass up immortals and stalkers off 2 base and a move me every game. I know it isn't imbalance, but I am just so terrible at the matchup even if I get a huge lead (Holding off a massive cannon rush with no losses ect) I'll lose in the end, so I just use this instead
Haha if you're happy, I'm happy! I used to struggle in ZvP macro too, in fact for seasons 2-3 I literally did JulyZerg's 1base baneling bust 90% of games against FFE. But I'm finding 3-4 hatch roach/ling to be a pretty deadly way of playing a macro style against Toss.
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I'm sorry if I missed it, but to follow this build perfectly, how many drones do you have when you cut all drone production?
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ur guides are always a good help : ) gj once again
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On April 17 2012 08:52 Recty wrote:
I'm sorry if I missed it, but to follow this build perfectly, how many drones do you have when you cut all drone production?
16 or 17 drones total.
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EPT
