|
On March 04 2012 06:14 Northern_iight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote:
Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in this is exactly why zergs should open 14/14 now. Force the protoss on the other side deciding whether or not to spend more on defense then econ/tech. If 6 speedlings can force 1 or 2 more cannons and earlier sentries (later tech for protoss), then 14/14 opening is really worth it. speedling opening is now very viable as it denies most scouting and is very economical if you don't do the all in.
It really isn't. gas on 14/14 with 6 lings compared to a no gas opener with 4 lings will delay your 2nd and 3rd hatch by minutes. You can deny scouting easily without speed and 4 lings - just need to be active and micro well. 150 minerals after a protoss is already mining off 2 base is peanuts compared to the loss of drones in the early game. This builds is as all in as you get. I honestly think a 7pool would be a better opener.
|
On March 04 2012 12:28 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 06:14 Northern_iight wrote:On March 03 2012 14:49 paintfive wrote:
Gas -> 6 Lings -> make cannons and prepare for all in this is exactly why zergs should open 14/14 now. Force the protoss on the other side deciding whether or not to spend more on defense then econ/tech. If 6 speedlings can force 1 or 2 more cannons and earlier sentries (later tech for protoss), then 14/14 opening is really worth it. speedling opening is now very viable as it denies most scouting and is very economical if you don't do the all in. It really isn't. gas on 14/14 with 6 lings compared to a no gas opener with 4 lings will delay your 2nd and 3rd hatch by minutes. You can deny scouting easily without speed and 4 lings - just need to be active and micro well.
I don't think it will delay 2nd/3rd hatch by as much as you think - certainly not minutes. Also, I've seen players like losira and leenock open 14/14 into macro and it works out quite well. Protoss hate being in the dark against zerg, and having speedlings on the field is one way to keep them in the dark.
And 4 speedless lings cannot deny scouting, no matter how active you are will them. Probes are too fast!
|
On March 02 2012 13:38 Grohg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 13:06 joyeaux wrote:On March 02 2012 11:29 skatbone wrote:On March 02 2012 10:26 joyeaux wrote:
Can someone who mains protoss fill me in here? I don't understand how this is dangerous in today's metagame. Isn't the gas before pool at 14 food a huge tell? As Tang says, it is all about denying scouting. I am really persistent in scouting when I FFE. However, if the Z denies 2 of my scouting probes and my scouting zealot/zealot me with a few speedlings, I don't know what he is doing. Zerg denies you scouting a gas going down before the SPAWNING POOL STARTS? How is killing your zealot/zealot scout after you FFE relevant to stopping you from seeing a gas down at 14, before pool? Gas before pool can mean a speedling expand with speedlings used for pylon spotting and probe killing. The key is letting the toss back into your base far enough to see the hatch and killing it right after. Anyone who throws down 3 or 4 cannons in response to a hatch is playing the metagame and could end up far behind if all the zerg did was get speed and pull drones off of gas. The protoss player will be forced to scout again since they saw gas taken...the point of the hatch being there in the first place is to ease their worries and hope that they read it as a speedling expand build.
Why NOT put down an extra cannon or two? you know you are ahead if you FFE against a zerg who puts down a gas, then a pool, then gets speed, all before taking the natural. Even better, with zerg going gas before pool on 14, why not just pylon block the ramp and cannon the zerg in?
|
such an old build. most protoss have adapted to this and this build doesn't win as much. show us the all-ins that you're doing NOW and we'll be happy. 
|
On March 05 2012 00:52 pedsky wrote:such an old build. most protoss have adapted to this and this build doesn't win as much. show us the all-ins that you're doing NOW and we'll be happy.
haha what evidence do you have that protoss have adapted to this? I used this to great effect in the first week of season 6.
|
I used to have a 90% win ratio with this, now it's down to 50-60%, since last season.
|
On March 05 2012 01:17 pedsky wrote:
I used to have a 90% win ratio with this, now it's down to 50-60%, since last season.
What division are you in?
|
Thanks for posting this instead of a nice macro build for Zerg. -.-
Sincerly,
every Protoss on the god dam planet
|
As a disclaimer I use a different build, abaeit similar (I pull drones off gas after speed and don't cancel my expand because it leaves less tells to the opponent), but still the essentialls are the same: use 6++ roaches to bust their wall, and reinforce with lings.
I used this to reach master league seasons ago (forgot which one), and still use it once in a while in master league. Last season most P's were adapting to this build: they make 2 cannons blindly (since they're blind and you opened 14/14) and move out to scout at a certain time with zealot/s or probes. if they catch your roaches midway they can make mass cannons and stall. if they hold you lose. Simple as that. I'm wondering how you can win in GM with this build in season 6.
However, other P's are such greedy bastards that they just make one cannon without scouting. those are the people who deserve to lose against this build (a hefty 50-60% mind you).
|
On March 05 2012 01:37 pedsky wrote:
As a disclaimer I use a different build, abaeit similar (I pull drones off gas after speed and don't cancel my expand because it leaves less tells to the opponent), but still the essentialls are the same: use 6++ roaches to bust their wall, and reinforce with lings.
I used this to reach master league seasons ago (forgot which one), and still use it once in a while in master league. Last season most P's were adapting to this build: they make 2 cannons blindly (since they're blind and you opened 14/14) and move out to scout at a certain time with zealot/s or probes. if they catch your roaches midway they can make mass cannons and stall. if they hold you lose. Simple as that. I'm wondering how you can win in GM with this build in season 6.
However, other P's are such greedy bastards that they just make one cannon without scouting. those are the people who deserve to lose against this build (a hefty 50-60% mind you).
You can't claim this doesn't work against protoss if you use a different build! This build works because of precise timings and execution that allows you to shut down any probe/zealot scouting. If your execution is optimal, there is nothing the protoss player can do will allow him to scout your roaches or your cancelled expansion - which means either he builds the blind defenses or he dies. If you're doing a 10 roach rush (not 6 like you use) then he needs more than 2-3 cannons, he needs about 4-5 with sentries and chronoboosted gateways.
|
With proper building placment 10 roaches look like 6, and most maps allow it to look like that, since cannons outrange roaches.
When a probe sees that you mine more than 100 gas he immediately thinks it's some kind of all-in, at least in master league. 14/14 is designed for you to have exactly 100 gas as your pool pops out, and if a probe pokes to see your base while your lings haven't popped out you're a giveaway since you left your 1 drone mining in gas.
and yeah, P's build blind defence (an extra cannon) specificially because of this build, at least in the games that i lose. 2 cannons and a sentry stall enough for the other cannons to finish warping in the back, what usually happens when you lose is that you take down their initial defence but 3-4 cannons finish warping.
but maybe i'll try to build 6 lings just to completely deny scouting (I only make 4), but I doubt it'll change anything.
|
On March 05 2012 02:11 pedsky wrote:
With proper building placment 10 roaches look like 6, and most maps allow it to look like that, since cannons outrange roaches.
No...10 Roaches looks like 10 roaches! lol it's a world of difference, and if the cannons outrange the roaches you can break through the cyber/pylon/forge first without the cannons in range.
|
On March 04 2012 09:56 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 09:35 kaluro wrote:
Your post is off. You cannot make 2 overlords at 20 food and a roach warren before 5 minutes.
Its either an earlier roach warren or 2 overlords, you cant do both. Sure you can, watch the replays.
It is not possible, and there is also no need to keep the drones in until after the roaches start, you will be having 75 to 100 gas left over.
Ideally, you will put them off gas after finishing speed for a little while and only put them on gas afterwards to end up with 250 gas.
EDIT:
The builder order in the OP is this:
14Gas
14Pool
15Overlord
15 Queen/6Lings/Zergling Speed
20 Expansion Hatchery
19 Drone
20 Overlord x2
20 Roach Warren (4:20-4:30)
Zergling speed finishes, cancel hatch shortly after. (5:10-5:30)
Warren finishes around 5:45, begin 10 Roaches immediately (You should be at 20 out of 42 supply, allowing you to make 10 right away)
After roaches, remove from gas and produce 1 overlord.
Continuously produce lings rallied to your roaches.
It nowhere states that leenock removes 2 drones from gas after speed started. I was forced to watch the replays just to see that the person making the topic start, has been lazy and etiher missed or forgot to mention that you should remove 2 drones from gas after speed started.
So I was right after all.
Edit 2: So the OP explained it in the random screenshot area but not in the actual build order summary. You might want to add it to the build order. If any, people are just going to be using the build order and create their own flow from there.
Edit 3: You say that you should kill the probe before you put down your expansion. Now the protoss will be blind and will have no idea whether or not you put down an expansion. For as long as protoss does NOT scout an expansion, they will alter their playstyle in such ways that they will be able to repel a one base all in.
You have to make sure he scouts your expansion, or you'll be in trouble.
At your sample game you killed the probe before the pylon died and thus the protoss never scouted your expansion.
Why even put down a fake expansion if you are not going to let protoss scout it? Why not save yourself the 75 minerals?
Denying scouting of faking something beats the entire purpose of faking something.
On March 05 2012 01:42 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 01:37 pedsky wrote:
As a disclaimer I use a different build, abaeit similar (I pull drones off gas after speed and don't cancel my expand because it leaves less tells to the opponent), but still the essentialls are the same: use 6++ roaches to bust their wall, and reinforce with lings.
I used this to reach master league seasons ago (forgot which one), and still use it once in a while in master league. Last season most P's were adapting to this build: they make 2 cannons blindly (since they're blind and you opened 14/14) and move out to scout at a certain time with zealot/s or probes. if they catch your roaches midway they can make mass cannons and stall. if they hold you lose. Simple as that. I'm wondering how you can win in GM with this build in season 6.
However, other P's are such greedy bastards that they just make one cannon without scouting. those are the people who deserve to lose against this build (a hefty 50-60% mind you). f your execution is optimal, there is nothing the protoss player can do will allow him to scout your cancelled expansion
You say scout your cancelled expansion, while in your example game you didnt even let him scout your expansion..
We all know what happens when protoss don't see an expansion coming up.
|
Kalura you're misunderstanding parts of my analysis. First, you can easily get the 2 overlords and roach warren before 5 minutes(usually 4:30-4:40) - I did so in every replay I provided and in the stream tutorials - it cannot be argued otherwise.
There is no way to deny the probe from scouting your expansion hatchery until 5 minutes, and all good protoss will. This is why you must build the hatchery and cancel it. If your slow lings kill his scouting probe before he sees your expansion at 4min, that's fine - there's no reason he'd start preparing for a 1 base all in just because he lost his initial scouting probe.
EDIT: Also, it's rude/uncalled for to state that I'm lazy because I didn't include in the build order that you should be taking 2 drones out of gas after speed is started. I've made the adjustment, and I look forward to reading all the guides you've written
|
On March 05 2012 03:03 TangSC wrote:There is no way to deny the probe from scouting your expansion hatchery until 5 minutes, and all good protoss will. This is why you must build the hatchery and cancel it. If your slow lings kill his scouting probe before he sees your expansion at 4min, that's fine - there's no reason he'd start preparing for a 1 base all in just because he lost his initial scouting probe. EDIT: Also, it's rude/uncalled for to state that I'm lazy because I didn't include in the build order that you should be taking 2 drones out of gas after speed is started. I look forward to reading all the guides you've made though
I did this build around 15-20 times over the past 2 days, versus top diamond to mid masters protoss.
Often they did scout 14/14 and did not scout any expansion going up, as their initial probe got killed.
There were no follow up probes that checked to see if an expansion actually did get up, and if there was - they got picked off by the speedlings.
At times this strategy worked, but that was when they saw the expansion going up.
When they did not see the expansion going up, they had 3 cannons and a sentry ready for me.
On March 05 2012 03:03 TangSC wrote:
Kalura you're misunderstanding parts of my analysis. First, you can easily get the 2 overlords and roach warren before 5 minutes(usually 4:30-4:40) - I did so in every replay I provided and in the stream tutorials - it cannot be argued otherwise.
Not if you follow the build order summary you posted, as it implies 3 drones should be left in gas till the 10 roaches are being made.
Okay so you made the changes, awesome. Maybe a solid number would be more accurate though. Like after you start speed, take two off gas and at X amount of gas, put them back in. Makes it easier to maintain accuracy.
|
On March 05 2012 03:13 kaluro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 03:03 TangSC wrote:There is no way to deny the probe from scouting your expansion hatchery until 5 minutes, and all good protoss will. This is why you must build the hatchery and cancel it. If your slow lings kill his scouting probe before he sees your expansion at 4min, that's fine - there's no reason he'd start preparing for a 1 base all in just because he lost his initial scouting probe. EDIT: Also, it's rude/uncalled for to state that I'm lazy because I didn't include in the build order that you should be taking 2 drones out of gas after speed is started. I look forward to reading all the guides you've made though I did this build around 15-20 times over the past 2 days, versus top diamond to mid masters protoss. Often they did scout 14/14 and did not scout any expansion going up, as their initial probe got killed. There were no follow up probes that checked to see if an expansion actually did get up, and if there was - they got picked off by the speedlings. At times this strategy worked, but that was when they saw the expansion going up. When they did not see the expansion going up, they had 3 cannons and a sentry ready for me. Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 03:03 TangSC wrote:
Kalura you're misunderstanding parts of my analysis. First, you can easily get the 2 overlords and roach warren before 5 minutes(usually 4:30-4:40) - I did so in every replay I provided and in the stream tutorials - it cannot be argued otherwise.
Okay so you made the changes, awesome. Maybe a solid number would be more accurate though. Like after you start speed, take two off gas and at X amount of gas, put them back in. Makes it easier to maintain accuracy.
No it's really better just to refill as soon as the probe is no longer in your main and there's no longer a chance he can scout your gas timing. You can do 11 roaches if you have the gas, the more the better. It just usually works out to 10.
|
Thanks for the guide Tang!!
|
On March 02 2012 07:35 Sated wrote:Stuff like this is why I 3gate Sentry/1gate expand 
Nothing personal, but I'm getting tired of such comments.
"This is why I 3 gate expand."
"This is why I 9 pylon scout."
"This is why I always open with speedlings."
This is also why you lose many of your standard games bro. Going for the safest build possible deters cheese, but you lose out tremendously if you opponent chooses to play standard. Besides, there is a reason why most pro Protosses forge FE.
|
This is the simple counter to this.
This isn't as hard to scout as people think. Sure, I won't be able to see the Hatch cancel or the Roach warren or stuff like that, but you have to know that there are other indicators that experienced P players will look for.
These are the things you aren't hiding that will definitely set off alarm bells in a P player's head.
- You went gas first on a map where FFE is absolutely standard.
- You continue to mine gas with 1 drone even after 100 gas have been mined and after you scouted my FFE.
- You made 6 lings instead of 4 (this isn't that big a deal, but it's still something I'd notice).
- You are very diligently denying scouting (again doesn't equal cheese, but I'd have further reason to suspect cheese).
The first 2 points above are absolutely MAJOR indicators for experienced P players (> mid-Masters). There is little reason why you would go for the LEAST economic opening possible on a FFE map. Heck, even if you 6, 8, or 10 pool, it makes more sense than gas first on a FFE map. And there is even less reason why you would mine extra gas after 100. When I see this I will get Stargate immediately after Core is done, throw up an extra cannon (maybe even 2), and patrol probes around my main to watch for Nyduses. If my first Force Field is well put, I have a very good chance of holding. With 3 cannons it should be absolutely no problem. Some crisis management will be needed if I have only 2 cannons (e.g. need to build additional buildings near Nexus). And once the VR is out it's easily held. Make Stargate above the ramp obviously.
Edit: I'd like to say I haven't watched the replays, but I've stopped this on the Ladder a few times before (NA Masters). I don't mean to put you down or say that this build sucks. It's of course good to have it in your arsenal. Heck, it's always good to have some all-ins in your arsenal. Your guide is well written. I didn't even have to look at the BO. Your pictures were good enough for me to understand the entire build and that's something that makes this guide better than most others. The only thing I feel is that it really isn't as hard to scout as you make it seem to be.
|
If your opponent can't scout your expansion before speed is done, he's probably terrible enough to lose to anything.
If you know he hasn't been able to scout your expansion, and you're playing a numbers game - I wouldn't continue with the hatch cancel.
Just be prepared for *sigh* moments when watching replays, then seeing the idiot would have died to anything anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
