EPTOn February 21 2012 04:52 avilo wrote:It just irks me when people say the "don't let it get there" as if they secretly know that if they just turtle and defend they always can get it there and that they feel they should be rewarded for simply getting to a certain stage in the game.
The thing is, they are rewarded, with the win. [D/H]Is it possible to win macro games in TvP? - Page 5
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ZiegFeld
351 Posts
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
On February 21 2012 04:52 avilo wrote: You should have about 10-15 supply open for warp-ins in the lategame. Otherwise you're not playing it as best as you could. Also, the saying "never let it get to that point" no one should ever use on this forum or any other discussion because it's a terrible thought process. Because there are people that CAN consistently "get it to that point" because they all know that if they do then it's a free advantage for them. "Don't let it get to that point" is like "don't let the sun come up in the morning." It's going to come up lol. And as people get better at the game, there should not be situations where "if it gets to that point" one race automatically has an advantage for no reason. THat's terrible game design, though that's a slightly different topic. It just irks me when people say the "don't let it get there" as if they secretly know that if they just turtle and defend they always can get it there and that they feel they should be rewarded for simply getting to a certain stage in the game. Avilo I fucking love you man. I watch your stream all the time. You're awesome. I am getting mixed advice in some areas, but what I think is clear is that I have room to execute much better then I have in any of my games; as long as I can play "more perfect" I think I am going to just try and do that. Its my personal opinion, that anyone who tries to rely on cheese and timing attacks to keep their win ratio high in a matchup is just buying wins; eventually the metagame and the patch cycles will all evolve so that all ins I practice today become increasingly less effective tomorrow. Also, its so disheartening to go on a losing streak if you are a timing focused player... what do you do to improve in that case? Find a better timing? Its not the way I like to play starcraft. I am mulling over all of your guys advice carefully, and I welcome even more. The people who have reached out to help me thank you so much, I really appreciate it. I can use all the advice and help I can get in this matchup. If its imba or not doesn't matter... I do believe that at diamond league anyone with superior mechanics and decision making can force a victory... so that is what I am going to try and do. | ||
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Wasihasi
Germany36 Posts
On February 21 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote: Yeah, it's his worst matchup. Some other terrans have an extraordinarily good record vs. Protoss. Everyone has a weak matchup. MMA's strength is his TvZ, his TvT is pretty decent too (although Alive made it look silly). Each matchup requires a different thought process than the others, TvP is played quite differently from TvZ and TvT, and it's important to think differently. If you're having trouble beating Protoss in the late game, it's probably because you're letting Protoss play too greedy in the early-mid game without playing greedy yourself. Hint: If Protoss is 1 gate expanding (or nexus first) into powering tech with no units at all, you'd better be going ultra fast tech yourself or taking a really fast third, or else he'll be ahead in the mid-game, which takes away a lot of the potency of mid-game aggression that terran wants to do. I understand that heavy gateway timing attacks and immortal busts are scary to terran, so learn to scout for those specific things and react appropriately (there are key hints as to what is coming). If you get into the late-game and Protoss has a lead, well yeah, things are going to be tough on terrran, that's what it means to have a lead. The trick then, as Terran, is to react appropriately to how Protoss plays the early game: play slightly greedier than Protoss does, or be aggressive if toss gets very greedy. In the mid-game you want to be trading armies in split up engagements, bio is way more effective in small numbers vs. protoss in small numbers than it is in large numbers vs. large numbers: thus, mult-pronged aggression and drops. However, this is difficult when Protoss is already ahead because he got to power tech and economy at the same time, so you want to power those things yourself. So many terrans are so used to dictating game flow that they've forgotten how to react to what they scout. I've lost track of the amount of times I've been going for a colossus midgame and terran is ghost rushing, without ever checking what I'm doing. Then he gets to my base and I laugh as he either runs or gets forcefielded in and killed. Noone would complain, if all problems with TvP would result from some bad trades or disadvantages. The main problem is that even if you come in to the lategame vP even or slightly ahead, than there is still like 80% chance, that the protoss will win in the end. This imbalanced between perceived advantage and final result is what makes it so hard for many many Ts. Last couple of games vP i had often something like +10 probes lead and often up to +30 army supply. It just doesn't matter. | ||
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On February 21 2012 19:38 Wasihasi wrote: Noone would complain, if all problems with TvP would result from some bad trades or disadvantages. The main problem is that even if you come in to the lategame vP even or slightly ahead, than there is still like 80% chance, that the protoss will win in the end. This imbalanced between perceived advantage and final result is what makes it so hard for many many Ts. Last couple of games vP i had often something like +10 probes lead and often up to +30 army supply. It just doesn't matter. Ever thought that you could be doing something terribly wrong in the lategame? | ||
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HolyHenk
35 Posts
Noone would complain, if all problems with TvP would result from some bad trades or disadvantages. The main problem is that even if you come in to the lategame vP even or slightly ahead, than there is still like 80% chance, that the protoss will win in the end. This imbalanced between perceived advantage and final result is what makes it so hard for many many Ts. Last couple of games vP i had often something like +10 probes lead and often up to +30 army supply. It just doesn't matter. Well if your saying protoss wins 80% late game it means terran wins 80% early game. Just master some 1-1-1 variant or that nasty sky terran all in and you will win from every protoss below high masters. I am mid master toss and there is no way I can stop that kind of stuff if executed well however I beat nearly every terran that plays standard late game macro. Sometimes I even switch to terran to see how hard TvP is and I crush mid master tosses with these all ins. | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
On February 21 2012 04:52 avilo wrote: You should have about 10-15 supply open for warp-ins in the lategame. Otherwise you're not playing it as best as you could. Also, the saying "never let it get to that point" no one should ever use on this forum or any other discussion because it's a terrible thought process. Because there are people that CAN consistently "get it to that point" because they all know that if they do then it's a free advantage for them. "Don't let it get to that point" is like "don't let the sun come up in the morning." It's going to come up lol. And as people get better at the game, there should not be situations where "if it gets to that point" one race automatically has an advantage for no reason. THat's terrible game design, though that's a slightly different topic. It just irks me when people say the "don't let it get there" as if they secretly know that if they just turtle and defend they always can get it there and that they feel they should be rewarded for simply getting to a certain stage in the game. While of course you are correct at an ultimate level of abstraction Avilo, sorry to say the best advice I can offer terrans below high masters is simply 'don't let it get there'. It takes not merely superb, but *flawless* control to engage a max protoss deathball with any bio-heavy composition. It's still flaky and fragile at the absolute best of times. If you delay protoss 3rd with constant harass and force trades to keep both players supply around 100, and take the game to a conclusive engagement before the 3rd gets fully saturated, or at least before the 4th gets up, you can avoid the final death ball fight - and I reccomend bio terrans do this. Feel free to contradict me but I've never seen any decent advice about winning max vs max bio other than "have the control of a pro gamer". This maybe because there is a game imbalance - I am not saying that, but it's a possibility. More likely, the metagame needs a radical shift. In my personal mind, the constant buffing protoss recieved, combined with the repeated terran nerfs have just taken their toll. Maybe TvP just isn't supposed to be played bio anymore? Mech is being worked out slowly and sky terran is starting to look like it could be a flavour of standard. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 21 2012 19:38 Wasihasi wrote: Noone would complain, if all problems with TvP would result from some bad trades or disadvantages. The main problem is that even if you come in to the lategame vP even or slightly ahead, than there is still like 80% chance, that the protoss will win in the end. This imbalanced between perceived advantage and final result is what makes it so hard for many many Ts. Last couple of games vP i had often something like +10 probes lead and often up to +30 army supply. It just doesn't matter. I don't think you understand what the word "ahead" means in this context. "ahead" means that you're doing better than you would be, relative to your opponent, compared to where the two players normally are in a standard game. If you're ahead in army and workers and still losing, you're either way behind in tech and upgrades, or your engagements are terrible or both. If you're ahead in workers and army supply but your enemy is at 3/3 and you're at 0/0 or 1/1, then believe it or not, you're actually behind, he'll roll you in a fight. Same goes for fighting a colossus/high templar army without ghosts and vikings and medivacs. So many players ignore tech. | ||
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Rabid Wookie
United States68 Posts
Whitewing United States. February 22 2012 02:16. Posts 3889 PM Profile Report Quote # I don't think you understand what the word "ahead" means in this context. "ahead" means that you're doing better than you would be, relative to your opponent, compared to where the two players normally are in a standard game. If you're ahead in army and workers and still losing, you're either way behind in tech and upgrades, or your engagements are terrible or both. If you're ahead in workers and army supply but your enemy is at 3/3 and you're at 0/0 or 1/1, then believe it or not, you're actually behind, he'll roll you in a fight. Same goes for fighting a colossus/high templar army without ghosts and vikings and medivacs. So many players ignore tech. I disagree I have been in quite a few engagements where we've been even on upgrades, I've had more supply in both army and workers, near correct amounts of unit types, engaged reasonably well, didn't pull off awsome pro level EMPs on every High Templar and lost everything. I've even had that same fight ahead on upgrades and come out with nothing. Unless you've got amazing micro fighting a Protoss Death Ball head on even when you're ahead in every way is never a sure outcome, and not only that but in order to win the battle you must have great micro and not make any mistakes or Collossi and Storms will make you rue the day. Just don't assume that everyone doesn't know what being ahead means. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On February 22 2012 03:25 Rabid Wookie wrote: I disagree I have been in quite a few engagements where we've been even on upgrades, I've had more supply in both army and workers, near correct amounts of unit types, engaged reasonably well, didn't pull off awsome pro level EMPs on every High Templar and lost everything. I've even had that same fight ahead on upgrades and come out with nothing. Unless you've got amazing micro fighting a Protoss Death Ball head on even when you're ahead in every way is never a sure outcome, and not only that but in order to win the battle you must have great micro and not make any mistakes or Collossi and Storms will make you rue the day. Just don't assume that everyone doesn't know what being ahead means. Then your engagements are completely wrong, and I know because I've been in enough fights with my 'deathball' and gotten rolled by the terran army. The lategame is almost entirely based around positioning and control from both players. And don't give me this 'ahead in every way'. If you have an actual replay to support your argument then we'll be happy to take a look at it, otherwise it's just hearsay. | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
The reason most protoss don't complain about TvP battles, is simply because its a lot easier for protoss. If terran has the perfect counter composition and controls well, and executes at the right moment in the right spot protoss will probably lose the fight. If terran makes even one mistake either in execution or in composition protoss will win in a land slide. And in certain late game scenarios, because of the warp in mechanic, protoss will always win at least the first engagement. Based on observation watching player streams and pro level matches, it would seem that this is so difficult to do that even most pros consider their odds better if they do some kind of marine tank timing or one base all in. This might be do to some high level techniques employed by protoss at high masters/gm/pro level play... I think it is has to do primarily with how small the margin of error is for terran in macro TvP. | ||
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moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
I find this to be the ONLY viable TvP strat: MKP's ghost build. It's designed to kill toss before colosi are out. I would give you approx BO, but it sounds like you are capable of seeing for yourself. Check out the PRIME vs NHS team game from the GSL last saturday OR MKP vs Genius from 2/9 (GSL code S). Other than that, I 2 rax into drop pressure on a map like Antiga - this strat is the cats pajamas aka really good when executed properly... | ||
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moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
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moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
While a toss can FE off of 2 gas, terran cannot do the same and still be 'safe' in most cases. The reason for this is because there is no terran unit which takes more gas than minerals to create, except the raven but that is irrelevant as no one will ever fess to a raven expand as being viable. Thus, the toss can utilize the gas early (sentries) and still manage the timing of the expansion. The best example of this is the reaper expand for terran... however this costs equal gas and minerals (50) and takes forver to build, which is why it works - but isn't OPTIMAL. The reason it isn't optimal is because the reaper provides no lategame usabilty unlike their counterparts, the sentries. Perhaps if Blizzard gave terrans OPTIONS instead of forcing the current metagame down our throat, then mayyybe, just mayybe I would take back this argument. As of now though I am very pessimistic when NOT all-ining a toss, esp on anitga, entombed... you get the idea. Even if they don't take go with the 2gas fe, you won't know until after you have already chosen to FE, in which case you are in a world of hurt when they go for warp prism and/or blink. Also the new map architecture seems to favor toss, at least in my experience. 3 base toss just can't be beat. I've been on 4 bases, 15 raxes, up 1-0 in upgrades - all of which doesn't matter when they storm you, and you can't snipe the HT's because colosi are leading the way all up in your grill (this is huge problem on Anitga when trying to hold the middle). Then when my supply goes from 200-90 and his goes down to 130 then immediately back up to 165 I know I'm dead no matter what I have, regardless of the 13 mauraders, 3 vikings, 1 medivac and 2 ghosts I have making... | ||
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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somefatkid
United States9 Posts
PvZ + Show Spoiler + If you have the army that beats brudelord infester with 50 spine crawlers I would like to see it PvT + Show Spoiler + As said the protoss army can be cost efficient and the build time of units isn't forgiving PvP + Show Spoiler + can feel really like a coin flip in many ways ZvT + Show Spoiler + Zergs can have incredibly hard times killing terrans when they are ahead of TvT + Show Spoiler + Well mapped out and the most "fair" but you can still have hard times solidifying an advantage The issue here is, most of the balance of the game has been made around the early and mid game. That being said the map pool has changed and the game has evolved. Now we are only starting to understand the balance of most of these matchups in the endgame. Before the EMP patch protoss players didn't even want to go into the endgame versus terrans of equal skill because they would emp carpet bombed and loose every engagement. After the patch the matchup swung in the other direction. Perhaps with the snipe change we will see zergs win more ZvT, but these unit interactions of 200/200 death ball are a relitively new phenomena and hopefully in time we will see that these late games will hopefully become "even". The Verdict + Show Spoiler + As a casually player don't concern yourself with balance. You probobly should concern yourself with winning. Just like artosis says you need to acknolege the fact that your horrible at this game and as long as your making mistakes in your play balance doesn't even matter. Don't concern yourself with winning because any meaningful improvments to the way you play starcraft will always come with losses.By the next patch the advantage of the late game might shift again | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
Parting 2118 Puzzle 2115 MC 2091 Younghwa 2090 Hong Un 2089 Meanwhile the 5 best Terrans at beating Protoss are: Puma 2188 Bomber 2172 Taeja 2138 Polt 2133 Rainbow 2125 Notice that the fifth best Terran is still favored against the very best Protoss. Clearly, at the highest level, Protoss is not favored against Terran. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13405 Posts
On February 22 2012 03:33 Whitewing wrote: Then your engagements are completely wrong, and I know because I've been in enough fights with my 'deathball' and gotten rolled by the terran army. The lategame is almost entirely based around positioning and control from both players. And don't give me this 'ahead in every way'. If you have an actual replay to support your argument then we'll be happy to take a look at it, otherwise it's just hearsay. I've seen some terrans get a marauder heavy composition and then split the marauders like they would marines against banelings when facing heavy chargelot compositions. Not only do the zealots not do as much damage as they would had the marauders stood there but the collossi are doing much less splash damage as well. Their high health also helps them against the Storms. Im not sure how long this little trend will stick around for but its pretty good at making marauders trade better against zealots and collosi. | ||
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mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
On February 22 2012 07:12 ZeromuS wrote: I've seen some terrans get a marauder heavy composition and then split the marauders like they would marines against banelings when facing heavy chargelot compositions. Not only do the zealots not do as much damage as they would had the marauders stood there but the collossi are doing much less splash damage as well. Their high health also helps them against the Storms. Im not sure how long this little trend will stick around for but its pretty good at making marauders trade better against zealots and collosi. Against zealots you want marines, not mauraders. Maurader DPS is just not high enough. With charge concussive shells become rather ineffective. | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
Edit: Also how bad is the troll title of this post? | ||
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Sadist
United States7327 Posts
On February 21 2012 06:49 Trowa127 wrote: Not suprised to see Avilo in here at all aha. Anyway, coming from someone only slightly above your level, the thing that really gets me when I'm playing vs Terran is constant dropping and observer sniping followed by cloaked ghost EMP's. As we've seen in many pro games (especially involving thorzain) he LOVES to snipe observers then just go to town with EMP's. That is really the hardest thing to deal with as Protoss in the late game, at our level anyway. Good luck man, good to see such a well thought out post. just make 8 observers. Snipping obs is more a product of toss players being bad than anything. Its just like wraiths vs carriers in BW. It should work once, maybe, if that. Then it should be completely shut down. | ||
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