EPTProtoss has an edge in the midgame though for sure.
[D/H]Is it possible to win macro games in TvP? - Page 6
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
Protoss has an edge in the midgame though for sure. | ||
|
Sadist
United States7327 Posts
EMP -> All energy gone -> merge to archon while other units are engaging. BOOM 3-4 more archons pop on the battle field. | ||
|
dynwar7
1983 Posts
You need to be aggressive and constantly attacking. Simple. If you dont do this, you gg. | ||
|
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:04 Sadist wrote: ok, just to start with, how about theres a huge build time increase for transforming into archons. Temps merge into archons so fucking fast in battle. Its just ridiculous. EMP -> All energy gone -> merge to archon while other units are engaging. BOOM 3-4 more archons pop on the battle field. I'm sure every terran can relate to the blunder of landing perfect EMPs and watching as 4-5 archons morph and destroy the remains of your army because you have no EMP left -.- Gut wrenching feeling | ||
|
YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:08 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Is it possible to win macro games in TvP? No. You need to be aggressive and constantly attacking. Simple. If you dont do this, you gg. Just like TvZ.. you can actually go toe to toe with a Z late game unlike P although with the recent patch Im not so sure what will happen. | ||
|
CarelessPride
United States146 Posts
| ||
|
scarper65
1560 Posts
On February 22 2012 09:18 VoirDire wrote: What terrans doesn't do enough is drop when it's 200 vs 200. If protoss is maxed, he can't spawn in more units and has to divide his forces. That's when you attack. Protoss has an edge in the midgame though for sure. If you have one tiny part of your army out of position, protoss will just roll you. | ||
|
Slate
Singapore112 Posts
So according to TLPD Korea the 5 best Protoss at beating Terrans are: Parting 2118 Puzzle 2115 MC 2091 Younghwa 2090 Hong Un 2089 Meanwhile the 5 best Terrans at beating Protoss are: Puma 2188 Bomber 2172 Taeja 2138 Polt 2133 Rainbow 2125 Notice that the fifth best Terran is still favored against the very best Protoss. Clearly, at the highest level, Protoss is not favored against Terran. 'Balance' statistics from the 'highest level' say nothing about the type of game or the stage of the game in which the game was won. Bringing up stats like Puma's ridiculous TvP record says nothing if he kills 80% of the protoss he plays against (just a (conservative) estimate) before the 15 minute mark. Obviously, this doesn't mean that Terran doesn't beat Protoss lategame at the highest level, but we cannot conclude how often this happens based on statistics that don't include the length of the game. It isn't about whether it's balanced or imbalanced, that's just a silly way to look at it. It's about finding ways to go toe to toe as Terran using a bio-centric composition (right now, basically the only viable one at a high level of play) against a seemingly far more cost-efficient Protoss army composition with lots of splash options. As always, seemingly, my personal response to this is less to do with the lategame composition (where Terran generally tends to have a disadvantage) but about expansions and aggression - i.e. how these compositions are achieved and maintained. If T can get to the lategame with a reasonable lead - through constantly being aggressive, or through a strong timing attack that transitions into macro play, etc - then the lategame is suddenly far more manageable because of momentum and the ability to force engagements and deny expansions when you're ahead. You effectively deny the protoss the leg room he needs to go for a strong late-game composition. This is also a big part of why I think more terrans need to start doing Jjakji/Mvp-style 2 base timing attacks with Marine/Siege Tank as a composition. These are by no means all in and are a great way to get a lead. The way they do it, after a strong timing and getting significantly ahead, they pull back with the tank/marine and transition into a standard bio-focused macro game. These haven't even been fully figured out yet - most protoss responses are on-the-fly switches into pumping as many gateway units with immortal support as possible, or rushing to colossus. Both of these responses can be dealt with effectively by terran - and put the terran in a position to force the protoss's composition. TL;DR TvP not imba, people need to start figuring out newer/more ways to get ahead in the early-midgame and leverage that lead over the lategame. Select vs ToD (I think this was played on SeleCT's stream once, great game) is the perfect example of this another example (old, but illustrates the principle fairly well: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65898) Mvp vs MC, Code S Ro32 from some time ago. Mvp allows his tank-bunker line to be broken, and MC does a damn good job of breaking it, but Mvp already has too much of a lead at this point. | ||
|
mothergoose729
United States666 Posts
| ||
|
Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
On February 22 2012 18:51 mothergoose729 wrote: Played more today. I am putting in at least 10 TvP practice games a day now... but it doesn't seem to be helping. I try to go in with the dogged attitude of "if I practice enough, it will get better". But it doesn't seem to be. Some guy who hasn't played more then a few games in the last year just beat me... twice. In a row. Neither game were all that close. It would be different if I won sometimes. I could learn from my success at that point. But its just a never ending procession of failure. If I had spent all this time perfecting a 1/1/1 build I could be taking games of high masters opponents without a doubt. I don't like to play that way, but I hate losing over and over again even more. Fuck I hate this game sometimes. Chill man, relax, cheese some if it will make you feel more relaxed. Don't think the game is impossible as you won't help yourself if you do that. If you want to see a stupidly long game of toss losing to terran recently check out thorzain vs hero game 1. Remember, sure, protoss has some advantages that terran doesn't, but the same is true the other way around, just find something that you can do in the late game THAT YOU FIND TO BE FUN, and do that until you get better at it. then check your replay and say, "maybe it didn't work because i wasn't doing it hard enough." and then kick it into a higher gear. Sometimes a strategy doesn't work because you haven't taken it to its extreme yet. | ||
|
NeonFox
2373 Posts
| ||
|
M4nkind
Lithuania178 Posts
| ||
|
OmegaKnetus
Germany431 Posts
just as an exaple: I played a game yesterday that blew my mind. I killed his third two times, sniped his robotics bay, killed ~15 units with drops, lost 2 units in the process and maxed when he barely had 150 food. Sounds good? Well he just turtles on two base and you can't kill him, if you just attack into him, you get owned by ForceFields. So you wait, he maxes out, has 2/0/2 against my 3/3 he a moves over me, warps in 10 zealots while i micro my ass off and wins. And don't tell me he was the better player or that he has better game sense, when he derped in his natural choke the entire game, can't defend his third and a moves and goes afk and wins while i did my best to limit him. I've seen countles terran pros voice their opinion about it : If the game goes past 15 minutes leave the game. I've given up, i'll never be able to micro my shit like mma or mvp, bio is the only viable strat and it sucks. Just 2 base allin with all scvs once the clock shows 12 minutes, you'll get atleast a 50 percent win ratio that way. And wait for blizzard to stop nerfing us to the ground instead of helping our lategame | ||
|
KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
Alot of people at around masters level seem to be having problems with tvp, but they just need to accept the fact that its not the games or the matchups fault its the players fault for not playing correctly | ||
|
KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On February 22 2012 11:28 Slate wrote: 'Balance' statistics from the 'highest level' say nothing about the type of game or the stage of the game in which the game was won. Bringing up stats like Puma's ridiculous TvP record says nothing if he kills 80% of the protoss he plays against (just a (conservative) estimate) before the 15 minute mark. Obviously, this doesn't mean that Terran doesn't beat Protoss lategame at the highest level, but we cannot conclude how often this happens based on statistics that don't include the length of the game. It isn't about whether it's balanced or imbalanced, that's just a silly way to look at it. It's about finding ways to go toe to toe as Terran using a bio-centric composition (right now, basically the only viable one at a high level of play) against a seemingly far more cost-efficient Protoss army composition with lots of splash options. As always, seemingly, my personal response to this is less to do with the lategame composition (where Terran generally tends to have a disadvantage) but about expansions and aggression - i.e. how these compositions are achieved and maintained. If T can get to the lategame with a reasonable lead - through constantly being aggressive, or through a strong timing attack that transitions into macro play, etc - then the lategame is suddenly far more manageable because of momentum and the ability to force engagements and deny expansions when you're ahead. You effectively deny the protoss the leg room he needs to go for a strong late-game composition. This is also a big part of why I think more terrans need to start doing Jjakji/Mvp-style 2 base timing attacks with Marine/Siege Tank as a composition. These are by no means all in and are a great way to get a lead. The way they do it, after a strong timing and getting significantly ahead, they pull back with the tank/marine and transition into a standard bio-focused macro game. These haven't even been fully figured out yet - most protoss responses are on-the-fly switches into pumping as many gateway units with immortal support as possible, or rushing to colossus. Both of these responses can be dealt with effectively by terran - and put the terran in a position to force the protoss's composition. TL;DR TvP not imba, people need to start figuring out newer/more ways to get ahead in the early-midgame and leverage that lead over the lategame. Select vs ToD (I think this was played on SeleCT's stream once, great game) is the perfect example of this another example (old, but illustrates the principle fairly well: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/65898) Mvp vs MC, Code S Ro32 from some time ago. Mvp allows his tank-bunker line to be broken, and MC does a damn good job of breaking it, but Mvp already has too much of a lead at this point. these marine tank contains are map dependant and player dependant, it is not a standard strategy that you can just do every game and there is nothing wrong with TvP lategame and you should be able to beat the protoss atleast 50 % of the time when you get to the lategame in an even situation. You don´t have to be that aggressive in TvP dropping isnt necessary | ||
|
Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
| ||
|
DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On February 22 2012 08:47 Ashent wrote: How can so many back to back posts claim terran is underpowered in TvP when the stats worldwide do not agree with that at all? I'm all for STRATEGY posts asking for help against X or how do I get a lead when Y, but balance whines don't serve anyone, especially not in this particular forum.. Edit: Also how bad is the troll title of this post? Because, statistically, it is. If you were to refer to game time vs respective winrate correlation charts you would see that Protoss winrates vs T will increase to ~70-80% as the game goes on; the only reason other stats don't agree with this is because most Terran have resorted to all-ining before 15 minutes. This is something that irks you because I assume it hurts your ego to accept that Protoss does in fact have an significantly easier time mid-late game. OP made a well-thought out and long post that definitely isn't whining, so I really think you should pay him some more respect before having knee-jerk reactions when you (presumably) can't control your emotions. | ||
Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On February 22 2012 19:03 NeonFox wrote: It's funny the arguments on both side remind me a lot of back when zergs couldn't win a ZvP when a protoss would take a 3rd and make the colossi/void ray deathball. it's okay then, all terran needs to do is learn to use nydus and we'll be fine | ||
|
moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
On February 22 2012 08:47 Ashent wrote: How can so many back to back posts claim terran is underpowered in TvP when the stats worldwide do not agree with that at all? I'm all for STRATEGY posts asking for help against X or how do I get a lead when Y, but balance whines don't serve anyone, especially not in this particular forum.. Edit: Also how bad is the troll title of this post? what stats? I dont needs stats taken from some random source, when I am both playing and watching games daily. Please don't argue with statistics, I studied mathematics in college and I can tell you that putting too much stock in stats is foolish - they simply can be manipulated to fit any arguement. You are taking stats from the 'era' of PvT in which protoss couldnt stop 1-1-1's, sadly this time has passed. In any STANDARD, LATEGAME TvP match, terran is a disadvantage. No stats with change that. | ||
|
moregamethanSEGA
United States76 Posts
On February 22 2012 19:03 NeonFox wrote: It's funny the arguments on both side remind me a lot of back when zergs couldn't win a ZvP when a protoss would take a 3rd and make the colossi/void ray deathball. Sorry to tell you, they still can't. Now its just 6-8 warp gate all-ins with robo/blink/immortals. | ||
| ||
