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On February 26 2012 07:13 Angel_ wrote:
How does anyone feel about moving towards more reactor hellions in the late game (cutting down on your marine numbers) as protoss are moving towards mass mass chargelots lately? Even if he warps in a bunch of stalkers, he shouldn't still have ENOUGH stalkers to really really terrify you from just one warp-in, and you'll still have an okay maurader count. thoughts?
This is actually pretty good in the mid game. For a while I expirimented with making helions out of a techlab factory while reserching blue flame to go along with my bio army. Helions really make zelots a LOT less of a problem; but once they become charge lots it gets much more difficult to use your helions effectively. For example, if you need to micro your bio vs chargelots you would have to have your helions on a different hotkey, or else your helions would not have enough time to fire while you are kiting; and non-upgraded helions by themselves fall pretty quickly to chargelots. Some protoss players tend to make nothing but zelots to reenforce when under pressure so BFH should be a viable choice for the lategame, as long as you make sure your helions aren't dying too quickly and are dealing their damage which is really difficult in most situations.
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On February 27 2012 11:15 Talicsnake wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 07:13 Angel_ wrote:
How does anyone feel about moving towards more reactor hellions in the late game (cutting down on your marine numbers) as protoss are moving towards mass mass chargelots lately? Even if he warps in a bunch of stalkers, he shouldn't still have ENOUGH stalkers to really really terrify you from just one warp-in, and you'll still have an okay maurader count. thoughts? This is actually pretty good in the mid game. For a while I expirimented with making helions out of a techlab factory while reserching blue flame to go along with my bio army. Helions really make zelots a LOT less of a problem; but once they become charge lots it gets much more difficult to use your helions effectively. For example, if you need to micro your bio vs chargelots you would have to have your helions on a different hotkey, or else your helions would not have enough time to fire while you are kiting; and non-upgraded helions by themselves fall pretty quickly to chargelots. Some protoss players tend to make nothing but zelots to reenforce when under pressure so BFH should be a viable choice for the lategame, as long as you make sure your helions aren't dying too quickly and are dealing their damage which is really difficult in most situations.
Midgame MMM ball should have no problem vs Chargelots. You just need to micro effectively. In my opinion, BFHs seems like a good idea on paper, but they're ridiculously fragile and kinda shoot slowly. Not to mention if the Protoss "remaxes" on Stalkers, you're kinda screwed. I feel like marines + ghosts are still a superior choice, but it's just hard for lower level players to have the micro for that.
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So, another thought. This has only happened in one game, but, honestly it helped a lot I think.
I opened 1 1 1 expanded doing a little bit of banshee pressure (only killed like 9 probes), but I got three siege tanks (we're on entombed valley, cross-spawn). I wish I'd had five. Anyway. I followed to a normal late-game without much trading or incidence, and when he pushed into me in the middle, my tanks did a lot on his zealots. they weren't like, killing the zealots off for me, but as i kited backwards (the tanks were to the left a bit and firing straight right while i kited north) they softened everything up a lot.
Obviously that's not a win-loss kind of thing, but it's enough random splash that it makes a difference I think, and it's only 3-5 tanks. at worst, you're throwing away 3-5 tanks with siege. you aren't depending on it to win, and really, if they go out of thier way to attack the tanks, they have to split up their forces and let your marines wreck them, or detour off to the side, in which case again, your marines wreck them. On top of ghosts and emp it just adds some splash, which terran are sorely lacking in in a typical MMMVG army.
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Since I can't find anything from Pro T v P matches other then godly micro that can grant you a late game win.
I have started to experiment with my own build. I'm actually sceptical about myself doing this as I feel I'm not at the level at which I should be doing this (diamond player). But nevertheless I'm doing it out of frustration anyway.
I have been experimenting with a particular build to go toe to toe with a Nexus first.
Basically all I have at the moment is a 1 rax Gasless fe into 4 rax and taking 3rd expo after this. At this point I decide to take all gases whilst adding raxes. Up until I take the 3rd I just want minerals to produce nothing but marine outs of the raxes and research combat shields + bunker up.
At this point is where we get the "magic number" of;
- 4 Ghosts
- 3 Ravens (2 Ravens for 2 x Seeker Missles + 1 Raven for 1 X PDD if stalkers, rest of energy is dumped on turrets)
Now in order to get this with the upgrades of;
- Cloak
- Seeker Missle
- Corvid Reactor
- Mobeius Reactor
it costs 1650 Minerals and 1550 Gas.
I find this is a hefty amount of investment just for 3 Ravens and 4 Ghosts. But let me tell you, it is honestly amazing how much damage EMP + Seeker Missile does to a Toss Deathball.
Atm, I'm just working on how this works against the deathball and how Ravens and Ghosts synergise with each other. To my suprise so far, they actually work quiet well together;
- Raven works well with the Ghost in order to snipe those pesky observers off before initial army engagement.
- Follow this up with a blanket emp, High Templar are priority no.1
- Once shields are taken down, watch Seeker Missile do it's thing!
At this point is where your Marine/Medivac army can clean up the remains and/or multi drop while the Toss is looking at his beautiful deathball in disgust!
Ghosts EMP takes 100 off shields, couple this with the Seeker Missile of 100 damage... it's quiet lethal IF (A BIG IF) you can pull it off. With the tendancy of 99% of Protoss players clumping up their army, I think this could prove to be quiet effective.
This is just me theory crafting. But I am looking at it in game and trying to see if I can come up with some type of half decent build.
Feel free to crit my ideas, but meh.... I'm just desperate to find ANYTHING to help me out late-game v P.
The idea behind this is to utilise the Raven + Ghost to be the initiator of the main engament dealing heavy AOE damage with your main MMM army coming from behind to clean up.
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I can see it failing so hard (blinking stalkers into insta 600 gas loss, toss spliting), but it sounds great at the same time.
Really love the idea of confronting the deathball in a direct manner, and really like to see more Raven play - boy I was trying to cast EMP from my Ravens like mad, yesterday.
Really like the idea of punishing the toss for 1 group clumping, too. And if you get the initiative, it can go really well.
Thanks for sharing.
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I am not sure if anyone mentioned this yet - flanks!
Catch toss army in wide open space by keeping a good scout. When he moves out, hit from 2-3 direction. I usually split my MMM into two roughly equal portions, one engages from the front and kites zealots; the other stims and a-moves into collosi/stalkers remaining. Add another flank with vikings to kill collosi faster, or send vikings with your flank army (to keep things simple). As for ghosts, you want them in the flank group for emp since you won't be micro'ing that group a whole lot and HTs can ruin your flanking army.
This has helped me so many times. But I feel like I'm outplaying the Toss to not get obliterated.
Recap in steps:
1) Protoss death ball sighted,
2) Split army in two groups and position them accordingly - one vanguard, one flank;,
3) Poke with vanguard, engage chargelots and retreat a bit,
4) Attack and EMP with flanking army to disable HTs and soften their shields, stim, and leave it on a-move,
4) Re-engage with vanguard and stutter step as required (sometimes they try to pull zealots back to protect their flank, in which case your vanguard should trash through the front).
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On February 26 2012 10:54 fiveohfive wrote:
Everyone seems to have this misconception about "The game HAS to be balanced at the peak level of SC2." I find this so god damn frustrating;
- Does it really make sense to balance the game around 1 - 5 Terrans? How about the fact they are just simply better?
- Every realised those "top" Terrans are collecting the majority of their wins early - mid game against Protoss? That 50% win rate Terran has currently revolves around if the Terran all-in build is successful or not. Do you really think it's fair the Protoss should have such a large advantage late-game? You don't really see many late-game wins AT ALL! (I'm sure there will be some idiot here that will paste a link where a Terran wins late-game lol)
One thing people don't realise is that like 98% of other Terrans who aren't the top 5 in the world are getting HAMMERED against Protoss at THEIR OWN LEVEL. I couldn't give a shit if it's a Gold Terran vs a Gold Protoss, the fact is they should be around the same skill level. Go watch a T v P at gold level and you would think the Protoss is a freaking master just because of their late-game 1A OP AOE deathball (To add to that a fucking instant reinforcement of wrap-ins!). It's quite obvious many Terrans are just fed up with the bullshit, many are actually just switching off into other games. There are also those who are trying out other races but just cbf learning another race and eventually switch off into other games also! I can tell you right now, those players at the top peak of SC2 wouldn't mean jack shit if we didn't have such a large player base below them. So people also need to consider that player base whilst looking at those Professional players. Of course there will be more weight in decisions when looking at the Pro level..... but Pro players aren't the ONLY thing to consider when balancing the game.
However, if you think the above isn't enough to get those to realise WTF is going on in the T v P MU. Go watch 20 T v P matches on GSL in the past couple of months and record down just how many of those Terrans won in the lategame.
If you don't think that the onus is on Terran to not let Protoss get a 3rd and get a Deathball is a disadvantage....... Honestly, you're just a retard.
Whining seems to get people what they want. Protoss complains about EMP, Blizzard nerfs that by 50%..... Zerg complains about Snipe and Blizzard nerfs that into oblivion. NOW, there are some of those who are wanting nukes to cost supply! A Terran could be playing a relatively decent game against Protoss where he is clearly ahead and just because he momentarily gets into a bad position his whole bio force gets hit by storm followed by Toss 1 A syndrome into his base with instant reinforcement! So I couldn't give a shit if you think this is a whine, the fact is T v P late-game is just a joke.
People cried out loud for the BFH nerf. It's the exact same concept with a fucking storm drop on your mineral line lol..... but no, don't nerf that.
@ halpimcat, why bullshit? Did you even play BW?
No I'm not bullshitting. It seems easier because there is a clearer cut answer for tvp in a game that has been around for over a decade. But executing it is a lot harder than sc2. The game is still young. Strats and nerfs and buffs will still be made, but I don't think the tvP situation now Is as hopeless as you're making it seem. You just sound like a frustrated gold player who sees what he wants to see. If you're really not good enough to neat Protoss late game (it is hard) then beat them earlier; find exploits in the metagame. I don't think doing so is cheesy at all, and actually helps build on ones knowledge of other races' strengths and weaknesses. Try 2rax, it's a great strat that's coming back.
Sorry; I know this post is probably super rambling and near incoherent; haven't had stable Internet in a awhile and typing this on a Phone
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On February 26 2012 17:38 Murlox wrote:
However the sucking argument is moot : that's what league are for. People of same level play against each other. I'm gold (got the game one month ago, played in beta though), and I'm not trying to beat Diamond Protoss, I'm just trying to have a somewhat even ratio versus Protoss in GOLD, or in SILVER league.
No, it absolutely is not moot and these "oh woe is me" posts don't make it moot. You're making a fallacious assumption in thinking that you are as good as your opponents when you're losing to them. The reason anyone loses below high-masters/GM/Pro level is because they suck more, either in a specific aspect of their play or in multiple aspects of their play, than their opponent. Thats how it is for me and thats how it is for you. Major imbalances will ONLY become apparent at the very highest level and in mass high-level competitive play where people play with few to no mistakes in their basics mechanics and macro. Below that people screw up so badly that you can't actually make any judgement on it.
In fact I'd even go so far as to say that the concept of "outplaying your opponent" doesn't mean anything below masters level. You don't "outplay" your opponent so much as "not screw up quite as much" as your opponent.
Anyway that said I was looking at the Playhem statistics earlier:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315604
Based on that I'd be very, very interested to see what a combination of nerfs and buffs based on game timing would do for Terran. Something to nerf mid-game MMM implemented alongside a lategame buff for, say, tanks or something could completely fix the matchup and eliminate complaining from both sides.
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I've been defeated several times as protoss by a hard turtling terran who took a quick planetary third while going marine tank and later transitioning into marine tank ghost. nuking everything he could while dropping rines. believe me when I say that several nukes at once are hard to spot let allone stop. Neither was I able to stop his tanks with my chargelot ht archon blinkstalker immortal army. tanks when repaired and with the support of rines and ghosts are incredibly strong. he bled me out in a 5 base vs 4 base situation.
any comments on this style?
Plat toss.
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EPT
