EPTProtoss has a pretty similar situation against zerg though; you can't really win when it goes to split map 200/200 near infinite resources situations unless he clumps up his units and asks kindly to be vortexed. I think the best answer for terrans in tvp and protosses in pvz is to make some sort of 2 base timing/semi allin your standard play. Starcraft 2 is pretty much never ever going to force you into playing 200/200 situations if you don't want to, and most 2 base allins in this game aren't really that gimmicky and are still very usable even if you opponent knows its coming. Just man up and go allin on 2 bases.
[D/H]Is it possible to win macro games in TvP? - Page 12
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
Protoss has a pretty similar situation against zerg though; you can't really win when it goes to split map 200/200 near infinite resources situations unless he clumps up his units and asks kindly to be vortexed. I think the best answer for terrans in tvp and protosses in pvz is to make some sort of 2 base timing/semi allin your standard play. Starcraft 2 is pretty much never ever going to force you into playing 200/200 situations if you don't want to, and most 2 base allins in this game aren't really that gimmicky and are still very usable even if you opponent knows its coming. Just man up and go allin on 2 bases. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On February 25 2012 16:06 mothergoose729 wrote: The fastest timing I think you can do with medivacs is 10:30 ish, more like 11:00 when you get to their base. These seem consistent in my games. Nah you can get 4 full medivacs with stim and shield by 8:40, great fun vs a greedy protoss player. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote: That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. OK, true, it's very hard to attack into a defended protoss base, but you don't have to. Let them have 3 base. They may be maxed out with mixed tech and upgrades, but so should you be, you just have to be patient not waste your forces earlier in the game and pay attention to your macro. | ||
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Spieltor
327 Posts
On February 19 2012 17:28 Emperor_Earth wrote: Don't always do one thing. Understand what each strat requires and risks. If a toss maxes out at 150 in army, he obv is allining and will not have any ability to sustain that attack. 1941 him. E.g., make it a multifront war where the push into the heartland will meet multiple walls of your troops. The farther away he goes from his base, the more vulnerable his own base is and the longer his reinforcement line is. And his reproduction capability is very limited. I'd like to point out that stretching their reinforcement line thin like 1941 or like napoleon into russia is fine and dandy for terran or zerg opps, but protoss proxy a pylon or warp prism and warp in directly in front of you, so thats not an issue to them. if anything, wouldn;t you want to have as high tech and powery of an army possible meet his nearer to his base, and be reinforcing your units right outside your choke so that all his forces died once, and by the time he gets to your base, you have defenses again? Also, bio is immune to storms and much less vulnerable to the yellow tickle rays inside bunkers. maybe they should be used more liberally. I remember that from brood war. | ||
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SpeCtor
233 Posts
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Murlox
France1699 Posts
FU protoss. I totally agree with you, OP, and have the exact same feeling : no matter what I do, and no matter who I watch, Terran seems to be helpless and sort of doomed to lose to Protoss. I don't know why everyone calmly consider it cool that you can't let a Protoss macro. I really don't like the fact that if both player just sit in their base, the game will favor Protoss. It puts a timer over Terran head from the beginning. It doesn't matter if I like it or not, though, it's just a fact : macro game favors Protoss so Terran HAS to control the game or will lose to late game. Protoss will not get punished for lazy/defensive/greedy play. It wasn't like in SC:BW. Late game armies were balanced between those 2 races. So basically you get one deathball in the middle of the map that you can't engage, which threatens your expos, so you must be able to defend from it/mitigates its damage while you HAVE to constantly harass his expos to keep his econ on a manageable level. I don't know. The fact that you can select all your army in one group, and the warp mechanic with instant positioning and such a low CD on units seems overwhelming. If the Terran could threaten the deathball a bit better, maybe it could be a bit better. At the moment I feel like both races will trade armies (in the best occasion), then Protoss will eat the Terran with waves 2, and 3, reinforcing in their face and at a much faster rate. I'm a gold player and I die in TvP. I'm 32, I have a lot of RTS experience since warcraft 1, and I really feel there's a problem inherent to the matchup. Protoss are favored, period. Skills of players, decision making play a very little role. Going for a straight macro game is basically going for a loss. I win most of the TvT, an even number in TvZ and used to lose TvP no matter what. Seeing that, I gave up on any macro and just go for banshees. It's dirty, not satisfying and unstable, but at least I can win some TvP now. There's something wrong in this matchup. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
And for the more normal players, ie the 98% below Master, Terran is close to unplayable late game in a straight up macro game. Should average players be forced to cheese or switch races if they cannot afford the 100+ APM required to play Terran at even a basic level. I have played every major RTS since Dune II and I love macro games. But Starcraft II in its current state is just depressing if you are an average APM player and happen to like Terran. | ||
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Ktk
Korea (South)753 Posts
On February 25 2012 17:42 architecture wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JnEtn.jpg) Here's another example with positioning. As you take more bases, you slowly expand where your simcity is. One example of late game is that you have 150 army, he has 130 army. 1. You drop with 20 food into his main and start killing pylons tech. 2. He doesn't have warpin, or you kill all his warpin by camping between buildings, and then he pulls back his army. 3. Since he didn't attack you, you can now dump another 20 food into a drop at his outlying expo. He can choose to warpin there, or come to attack you, but the travel time means you will have replenished the lost drop food you had from 1. Notice none of this involves you EVER fighting him in the open. That space in the middle? Don't go there. Of course multi-pronged drops are good, but once you're down from 150 food to 130 food what's to stop the protoss from just attacking your main, via a safe route, and destroying your 130food, inferior tech, inferior damage army? And how can you assume they'll send the whole army to deal with 2 medivacs? Or even just the opponent leaving a few high templars in the base to nullify the drops from the beginning... Which is a realistic problem - it feels risky dropping at any given time once I scout citadel because I know feedback and likely some form of defense (It's not as if any competent protoss player is going to leave their 3-4 bases undefended?). Drops have become pretty predictable, I have only played a few protoss that haven't left stalkers and/or zealots before citadel to preempt drops the whole game until HT tech or enough money to build cannons. Nukes are probably the way to go about it, I think. It's a 2 supply + 100/100 investment. You can drop 3 ghost academies and make the protoss do some heavy multi-tasking with relatively little effort on your own end. Nuking any maxed engagements is good too. The preemptive response from P of course (if this becomes popular) will be to get many obs (3+) and spread them in places susceptible to nukes, and the proper response to that as T is to scan and snipe them as you go. Sidenote: APM really doesn't mean everything. Having an APM of 180 (EAPM>110) I feel that I don't have any advantage over Terrans in TvP with APMs of 100. It's about knowing what you need to do rather than floundering faster than the others. On TvP mentality I realize I am an extreme pessimist, I've been doing custom games with Ps of the same league (Yeah, only Diamond, I'm bad, don't play 5 games a day, etc.). However I feel that I know more timings where I can die, rather than timings where I can kill the Protoss. It could be similar for others as well, and seeing posts like "It's impossible to attack the protoss" from people who are better than I are A) of similar mentality, and B) cyclically disheartening. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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cleansingpak
Pakistan4 Posts
1)Use your regular MMMVG and do multi-dropping to damage toss infra/eco so that after the big battle your army can remax better........If properly controlled with good control,MMMVG CAN beat toss deathball but I think the advantage here lies with the toss in a straight up fight 2)The other method is to use different playstyles like MMMVG transitioning into BC GHOST.......nukes+marauder drops are great........see this vod of avilo to see what i'm talking about Avilo's thoughts on future of late game TvP Game starts at 17:54 for those who like to skip the blah-blah like me  | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On February 25 2012 21:03 Ktk wrote: Of course multi-pronged drops are good, but once you're down from 150 food to 130 food what's to stop the protoss from just attacking your main, via a safe route, and destroying your 130food, inferior tech, inferior damage army? And how can you assume they'll send the whole army to deal with 2 medivacs? Who says inferior tech, inferior damage, why would this be the case? A terran army with equal food and the defenders advantage should stomp a protoss army, and that's even if they send NOTHING to defend the drop at all, they'll have to send something or it's GG. | ||
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Murlox
France1699 Posts
On February 25 2012 21:05 cleansingpak wrote: Ofcourse you can win a macro game in tvp......IMHO there are two ways in which you can do that--- 1)Use your regular MMMVG and do multi-dropping to damage toss infra/eco so that after the big battle your army can remax better........If properly controlled with good control,MMMVG CAN beat toss deathball but I think the advantage here lies with the toss in a straight up fight 2)The other method is to use different playstyles like MMMVG transitioning into BC GHOST.......nukes+marauder drops are great........see this vod of avilo to see what i'm talking about Avilo's thoughts on future of late game TvP Game starts at 17:54 for those who like to skip the blah-blah like me He put a lot of thought in his build and that was a very interesting video in that regard. However, it feels really map-based to me. Shakuras is so nice to split up with PFs. I'm really dubious/curious to know how will you "defend" and stay even on bases with PF on bigger map, like Taldarim for instance... | ||
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Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
On February 24 2012 05:52 ProxyKnoxy wrote: You use the word countless far too often. There are a FEW builds of actual significance, and I don't think you can really judge mech until it's in the hands of a top Terran (aka not Goody). This is a metagame thing, of course you will figure something out and you'd be a dumbass to think otherwise. Of course David Kim will listen to whatever balance complains people have because they don't seem to understand what a meta game is. Even now, a raven still isn't in common use, and Terran's complain that they lose all their vikings and can't deal with tech changes. Why not add thors into the army? They can cause feedbacks instead of storms (still soak up storms pretty well), act as a sort of forcefield against chargelots etc. I dunno man that's just an example but the amount of experimental play by Terran is piss poor and you can't complain until you have explored a lot of the options (which you haven't). glhf I would venture that you are viewing the "few builds of actual significance" differently than I do and that you might perhaps underestimate the creativity, passion, and effort of the Terran community as a whole. Rather than approaching the "few builds of actual significance" as proof of little actual effort inputted, perhaps consider it as an indicator of futility. Similarly, I could say that there are few examples of teams that have had much championship success in American football (any level) that started short quarterbacks and small linemen. That's not to say it's never been done but rather it's an indicator that it has been implied very, very strongly empirically that it's simply an inferior strategy. You want big brutes for linemen and then tall quarterbacks who can see over their shoulders. Similarly, you want mobile units vs Protoss that can punish their tendency to clump in a ball, short enough build times to not be embarrassingly crushed by their 10-15 near-instant re-warpins, chemistry with other units in game, viability in most situations, etc. | ||
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willyallthewei
United States265 Posts
On February 25 2012 20:53 MockHamill wrote: This is the flawed gameplay you get when trying to balance the game around a few top Terran players. Most of the top 10 players in the world are Terran. In order to get more GSL wins for Zerg and Protoss Blizzard nerfs Terran into the ground even thought the top Terran players simply played better than the top Zerg/Protoss players. Terran is required to do so much more than Protoss and Zerg in order to win. And for the more normal players, ie the 98% below Master, Terran is close to unplayable late game in a straight up macro game. Should average players be forced to cheese or switch races if they cannot afford the 100+ APM required to play Terran at even a basic level. I have played every major RTS since Dune II and I love macro games. But Starcraft II in its current state is just depressing if you are an average APM player and happen to like Terran. Its actually the exact opposite, only the Top 10 or so Protoss in the world seem unbeatable in the late game. You personally suck hard, and any Protoss you lose to could easily be beat if you were not horrible. | ||
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willyallthewei
United States265 Posts
On February 25 2012 18:54 architecture wrote: You are forgetting two critical things that allow T to abuse position. Vikings vs Colo. Nukes vs cannons. Nukes mean that any cannon spam can always be cleared cost effectively by T. The strategy I'm explaining doesn't require P to attack into you unless the P is satisfied that you've mispositioned, or lost too many units. You are right in theory but the PF/Nuke strategy so far has not been able to crack the top Protoss who are intelligent about engagements. Here: http://en.twitch.tv/artosis/c/6151 An entire hour based on your strategy, and on a perfect map - Shakuras - tons of dead air space for drops and extremely tight chokes for defensive positions. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On February 25 2012 17:18 ThePianoDentist wrote: jinro versus elfi on daybreak? at assembly yesterday exemplified this perfectly. Only thing I don't like about this is that most maps the middle is the open part....therefore to not lose a 200/200 fight you have to let the protoss player control centre of the map making your outer expansions vulnerable at times....although I guess you can use nukes to force them back again you could say it's the protoss players fault for engaging here and if a protoss player plays well he will never engage like this. I would like to see in future terran players sac scvs a bit more and when they sac them make some battlecruisers...as I don't think you can realistically remax on bc's as their build time is too long, so this is the only good point to be able to get some out (as well as losing supply to drops) Responding to the notion that, "you have to let the protoss player control centre of the map making your outer expansions vulnerable at times" Something that seems missing from a lot of the analysis in this thread is that the value of drops is not just in the material damage they do. Here, you write of the toss army taking the middle of the map. If I am playing against a T who is threatening drops (not necessarily succeeding--threatening) then I am not likely to camp the middle of the map with my army. Sure, as we close in on 200/200, I will be roaming around. But even then, if you have set a precedent, in the early-mid and mid-game, of dropping, I will be wary as I move around the map. Terran can play a lot of mind games with toss. From the outside, it might seem as though toss is "just turtling." However, we are always trying to secure ourselves against threats. Make me feel insecure and I am more likely to make a mistake. Btw, I prefer playing a more aggressive toss style. I never feel like 200/200 is auto-win for me. In fact, I, too, feel like a slave to the positioning game once I max. I'd rather win the game through the aggregation of small advantages. | ||
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
Phoenix are quick, nimble looking harass based air fighters. Yet Phoenix have significantly more health, what gives? | ||
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RRjr
Germany40 Posts
Directly attacking a hightech Protoss AoE composition with MMMGV is just asking to get owned. Don't do it. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On February 26 2012 04:46 RRjr wrote: IMO it's just a metagame thing. I firmly believe that the pendulum will swing back hard once Terrans realize just how awesome Ravens, Banshees and Ghosts are when used to their full potential. They're already starting, to an extent, with the 1/1/1 builds. It'll take some time to realize that those units can be devastating to Protoss in the lategame, too. Directly attacking a hightech Protoss AoE composition with MMMGV is just asking to get owned. Don't do it. Just how awesome those units get feedbacked? Its not like people haven't tried but everytime they do so, they get punished because the composition is less efficient compared to MMMGV.. | ||
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