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On February 25 2012 15:17 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:08 willyallthewei wrote:
Biggest weakness w/ Macro Terran players is they don't understand what it means to play "low mineral" - as IM_MVP puts it.
Your race is godly on low mineral count, weaker on high, so intuitively this means you need to be forcing trades constantly, if you want to sit back and macro up 200/200 go play zerg.
This mentality is broken. People that spout this don't understand that builds+maps deeply affect what timings are possible. The reality is that there is no way to guarantee damage on a 3 base P. It all depends on T's build and P's build, and if there is asymmetry in which build is supposed to counter which. T excels on low minerals. But to imagine getting there by somehow preventing 2 base P, from taking a 3rd base, and then a 4th base, that's not realistic. Especially when 3rds+4ths are very easy to take on many maps. The way the low minerals applies is like this: you take the advantages that your build gives/doesn't give. And then you weather out the easy bases that the P can hold. Until the P has to start taking far bases that he can't defend efficiently. BAM now you're back down to 2 base. You can't deny the first 3-4 bases on most maps. But you can certainly do so on the next few bases. One significant advantage that TvP has over TvZ is that the P army doesn't get more dangerous with more bank. Warpins can be negated with terrain. More archons can be negated by ghost+energy accumulation. Colo can be hardcountered and are vulnerable. Unlike Z, P is unable to immediately convert it all into tech units. So time is on your side, the only thing you need is position.
Right, IM_MVP's mentality is broken, good one there.
Time is on your side? Protoss doesn't get more dangerous with more bank? Get a freaking clue. All the top Protoss players in the world when sitting on all tech trees and 200/200 and a huge bank are literally unbeatable in PvT, forget it. If you have Jakji like control you might beat someone of lesser calibre, that's it. Otherwise if you have anywhere near an even army trade, toss will be maxed before you get back up to 100 supply.
Time is not on your side, and for you to say something idiotic like that proves you're the one who "doesn't understand" the game.
As for not being able to deny 3rd and 4th bases? Lmao, considering how many TvP builds are designed to do exactly that at the professional level, I think you ought to reevaluate your knowledge of anything starcraft related.
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On February 25 2012 15:45 mothergoose729 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:43 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable. Terran aggression in the midgame is hard for Protoss to defend, especially if they're going for 3 bases before the Terran. May I ask what level you play at? Diamond. Its in the OP. I have a problem with saying "aggression" but not qualifying it. What kind of aggression? How do you engage? How do you transition? How do you account for various protoss openings? These are all really important with an aggressive strategy. There needs to be a way with aggressive strategies to get ahead even if they can't kill many units. IE reactor hellion expand into two base marine tank timing is so good because I can choose to expand rather then attack if I see zerg playing to defensively.
When you get Medivacs, you can put on a lot of aggression. While you're doing all this, you can take a 3rd. You transition into more MMM and Vikings if they get Colo and Ghosts if they get Storm.
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On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable.
2 Medivac timings are strong. If you snipe their third while getting your own up, you can almost certainly win the game from there unless you make a major mistake.
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On February 25 2012 15:59 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:45 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:43 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable. Terran aggression in the midgame is hard for Protoss to defend, especially if they're going for 3 bases before the Terran. May I ask what level you play at? Diamond. Its in the OP. I have a problem with saying "aggression" but not qualifying it. What kind of aggression? How do you engage? How do you transition? How do you account for various protoss openings? These are all really important with an aggressive strategy. There needs to be a way with aggressive strategies to get ahead even if they can't kill many units. IE reactor hellion expand into two base marine tank timing is so good because I can choose to expand rather then attack if I see zerg playing to defensively. When you get Medivacs, you can put on a lot of aggression. While you're doing all this, you can take a 3rd. You transition into more MMM and Vikings if they get Colo and Ghosts if they get Storm.
Sorry, but your wrong. You can't attack the front at all, your army is never large enough. What you can do is drop and be annoying. Pick off some probes, kill some zealots who are out of position, that kind of thing. I have played games before where I macroed essentially perfectly for the first 11 minutes, and never was I in a position to stem and a move into the natural. It just doesn't happen.
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On February 25 2012 16:02 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable. 2 Medivac timings are strong. If you snipe their third while getting your own up, you can almost certainly win the game from there unless you make a major mistake.
Maybe all the protoss players I play against just play super safe, but I have never been able to do that. By the time I get to their base, they have at least a few sentries, zealots, sometimes maybe immortals. All of which are enough to make me turn around. The fastest timing I think you can do with medivacs is 10:30 ish, more like 11:00 when you get to their base. These seem consistent in my games.
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On February 25 2012 16:03 mothergoose729 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:59 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:45 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:43 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable. Terran aggression in the midgame is hard for Protoss to defend, especially if they're going for 3 bases before the Terran. May I ask what level you play at? Diamond. Its in the OP. I have a problem with saying "aggression" but not qualifying it. What kind of aggression? How do you engage? How do you transition? How do you account for various protoss openings? These are all really important with an aggressive strategy. There needs to be a way with aggressive strategies to get ahead even if they can't kill many units. IE reactor hellion expand into two base marine tank timing is so good because I can choose to expand rather then attack if I see zerg playing to defensively. When you get Medivacs, you can put on a lot of aggression. While you're doing all this, you can take a 3rd. You transition into more MMM and Vikings if they get Colo and Ghosts if they get Storm. Sorry, but your wrong. You can't attack the front at all, your army is never large enough. What you can do is drop and be annoying. Pick off some probes, kill some zealots who are out of position, that kind of thing. I have played games before where I macroed essentially perfectly for the first 11 minutes, and never was I in a position to stem and a move into the natural. It just doesn't happen.
I got a lot of wins or big advantages just from doing that last season at high masters/gm. There must be something you're not doing right. I also don't think you can macro perfectly at a recently promoted to diamond level either.
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On February 25 2012 16:11 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 16:03 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:59 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:45 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:43 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable. Terran aggression in the midgame is hard for Protoss to defend, especially if they're going for 3 bases before the Terran. May I ask what level you play at? Diamond. Its in the OP. I have a problem with saying "aggression" but not qualifying it. What kind of aggression? How do you engage? How do you transition? How do you account for various protoss openings? These are all really important with an aggressive strategy. There needs to be a way with aggressive strategies to get ahead even if they can't kill many units. IE reactor hellion expand into two base marine tank timing is so good because I can choose to expand rather then attack if I see zerg playing to defensively. When you get Medivacs, you can put on a lot of aggression. While you're doing all this, you can take a 3rd. You transition into more MMM and Vikings if they get Colo and Ghosts if they get Storm. Sorry, but your wrong. You can't attack the front at all, your army is never large enough. What you can do is drop and be annoying. Pick off some probes, kill some zealots who are out of position, that kind of thing. I have played games before where I macroed essentially perfectly for the first 11 minutes, and never was I in a position to stem and a move into the natural. It just doesn't happen. I got a lot of wins or big advantages just from doing that last season at high masters/gm. There must be something you're not doing right. I also don't think you can macro perfectly at a recently promoted to diamond level either.
Can i see the replays? I am not sure how much there is to deviate from good macro in the first 10 or so minutes. I get three barracks, two tech labs, +1, and medivacs as soon as I can afford them. I don't macro perfectly every game but I have played games where I did all these things without getting supply blocked and made constant scvs.
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On February 25 2012 16:14 mothergoose729 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 16:11 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 16:03 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:59 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:45 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:43 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:
[quote]
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ.
If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable. Terran aggression in the midgame is hard for Protoss to defend, especially if they're going for 3 bases before the Terran. May I ask what level you play at? Diamond. Its in the OP. I have a problem with saying "aggression" but not qualifying it. What kind of aggression? How do you engage? How do you transition? How do you account for various protoss openings? These are all really important with an aggressive strategy. There needs to be a way with aggressive strategies to get ahead even if they can't kill many units. IE reactor hellion expand into two base marine tank timing is so good because I can choose to expand rather then attack if I see zerg playing to defensively. When you get Medivacs, you can put on a lot of aggression. While you're doing all this, you can take a 3rd. You transition into more MMM and Vikings if they get Colo and Ghosts if they get Storm. Sorry, but your wrong. You can't attack the front at all, your army is never large enough. What you can do is drop and be annoying. Pick off some probes, kill some zealots who are out of position, that kind of thing. I have played games before where I macroed essentially perfectly for the first 11 minutes, and never was I in a position to stem and a move into the natural. It just doesn't happen. I got a lot of wins or big advantages just from doing that last season at high masters/gm. There must be something you're not doing right. I also don't think you can macro perfectly at a recently promoted to diamond level either. Can i see the replays? I am not sure how much there is to deviate from good macro in the first 10 or so minutes. I get three barracks, two tech labs, +1, and medivacs as soon as I can afford them. I don't macro perfectly every game but I have played games where I did all these things without getting supply blocked and made constant scvs.
I don't think looking at my replays would help. There's plenty of top Terran TvPs out there to look at that can do it better than me and better opponents as well.
Generally though, just try to do whatever you can and not overcommit. If you picked off a few probes and a pylon or two and you can't do anything else, that's fine. Pick up and leave. If you keep doing that, you can generally force mistakes from them enough to build a noticeable advantage or a win.
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I have discovered! If you make 16 Battlecruisers and have a metric fuckton of mules and a bank! absolutely nothing the protoss makes can kill you! I have found the answer!!!! Good luck getting to that point in a normal serious game though.
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I think the answer is just to engage perfectly. note that doesn't mean "zomgzors i have to out micro him in battle like x100 whatever he has to do". it means you have to set it up right. Mauraders in front, not too many, correct number of vikings, lots of marines and a ton of ghosts. ghosts in front cloaked. snipe observers with scan and vikings. viking harrass the colossi if you can safely. when he actually attacks you in position emp/snipe all the things. not more than 6 medivacs ever, unless you're going really drop heavy, then still not more than 8.
if his econ is ahead of yours and you cant drop effectively you need to drop better.
if your econ is even stay even and keep position
if he has position drop to force him to move
if you can starve him starve him
never be the one attacking with your main army.
if you get maxed and sitting against one another nuke the piss out of him.
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however. if you lose the big engagement i'm pretty sure at this point that unless he lets you remax you're just dead. warp-in mechanic is too strong in the late game in that situation. you can't actually catch up because you need position which you cant get with streaming in units while being attacked, and he makes units faster than you. blerg.
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On February 25 2012 16:39 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 16:14 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 16:11 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 16:03 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:59 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:45 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:43 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:
[quote]
That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes.
You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable. Terran aggression in the midgame is hard for Protoss to defend, especially if they're going for 3 bases before the Terran. May I ask what level you play at? Diamond. Its in the OP. I have a problem with saying "aggression" but not qualifying it. What kind of aggression? How do you engage? How do you transition? How do you account for various protoss openings? These are all really important with an aggressive strategy. There needs to be a way with aggressive strategies to get ahead even if they can't kill many units. IE reactor hellion expand into two base marine tank timing is so good because I can choose to expand rather then attack if I see zerg playing to defensively. When you get Medivacs, you can put on a lot of aggression. While you're doing all this, you can take a 3rd. You transition into more MMM and Vikings if they get Colo and Ghosts if they get Storm. Sorry, but your wrong. You can't attack the front at all, your army is never large enough. What you can do is drop and be annoying. Pick off some probes, kill some zealots who are out of position, that kind of thing. I have played games before where I macroed essentially perfectly for the first 11 minutes, and never was I in a position to stem and a move into the natural. It just doesn't happen. I got a lot of wins or big advantages just from doing that last season at high masters/gm. There must be something you're not doing right. I also don't think you can macro perfectly at a recently promoted to diamond level either. Can i see the replays? I am not sure how much there is to deviate from good macro in the first 10 or so minutes. I get three barracks, two tech labs, +1, and medivacs as soon as I can afford them. I don't macro perfectly every game but I have played games where I did all these things without getting supply blocked and made constant scvs. I don't think looking at my replays would help. There's plenty of top Terran TvPs out there to look at that can do it better than me and better opponents as well. Generally though, just try to do whatever you can and not overcommit. If you picked off a few probes and a pylon or two and you can't do anything else, that's fine. Pick up and leave. If you keep doing that, you can generally force mistakes from them enough to build a noticeable advantage or a win.
It would help if there something off with my build though. Sounds like your timing is more effective, or hits sooner.
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Recently I have stumbled upon something that was worked very well. It is similar to what others have been saying, and it relies on you having pretty aggressive macro and ok multitasking.
While they are turtling, you get your third. Once they take their third is when I start dropping, two drops on either side (big enough so they deal with it using entire army, not just warpins), and viking fleet outfront. Protoss will almost alllllways have their entire army on 1 hotkey, so they will be walking back and forth with their big deathball to deal with drops. As they walk by their main entrance you snipe their colossi little by little, since their army is in a stretched out formation from walking. The drops I usually try to snipe upgrades.
By then you have way more production, around 20 rax, I do an initial attack with MMM+viking, sac vikings to kill all colossii, then insta-remax on marauders and medivacs. Without colossi, 3/3 marauders + med dont care about blink, storm, archon, zealot w/e 
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On February 25 2012 15:56 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:17 architecture wrote:On February 25 2012 15:08 willyallthewei wrote:
Biggest weakness w/ Macro Terran players is they don't understand what it means to play "low mineral" - as IM_MVP puts it.
Your race is godly on low mineral count, weaker on high, so intuitively this means you need to be forcing trades constantly, if you want to sit back and macro up 200/200 go play zerg.
This mentality is broken. People that spout this don't understand that builds+maps deeply affect what timings are possible. The reality is that there is no way to guarantee damage on a 3 base P. It all depends on T's build and P's build, and if there is asymmetry in which build is supposed to counter which. T excels on low minerals. But to imagine getting there by somehow preventing 2 base P, from taking a 3rd base, and then a 4th base, that's not realistic. Especially when 3rds+4ths are very easy to take on many maps. The way the low minerals applies is like this: you take the advantages that your build gives/doesn't give. And then you weather out the easy bases that the P can hold. Until the P has to start taking far bases that he can't defend efficiently. BAM now you're back down to 2 base. You can't deny the first 3-4 bases on most maps. But you can certainly do so on the next few bases. One significant advantage that TvP has over TvZ is that the P army doesn't get more dangerous with more bank. Warpins can be negated with terrain. More archons can be negated by ghost+energy accumulation. Colo can be hardcountered and are vulnerable. Unlike Z, P is unable to immediately convert it all into tech units. So time is on your side, the only thing you need is position. Right, IM_MVP's mentality is broken, good one there. Time is on your side? Protoss doesn't get more dangerous with more bank? Get a freaking clue. All the top Protoss players in the world when sitting on all tech trees and 200/200 and a huge bank are literally unbeatable in PvT, forget it. If you have Jakji like control you might beat someone of lesser calibre, that's it. Otherwise if you have anywhere near an even army trade, toss will be maxed before you get back up to 100 supply. Time is not on your side, and for you to say something idiotic like that proves you're the one who "doesn't understand" the game. As for not being able to deny 3rd and 4th bases? Lmao, considering how many TvP builds are designed to do exactly that at the professional level, I think you ought to reevaluate your knowledge of anything starcraft related.
Read and your your brain next time.
I said that MVP is exactly right, except most maps and many builds you will be unable to do damage on 2 base. So you need to starve the Protoss back down to two base to kill him.
Up to the first max, you will only do damage/cripple P if he did the wrong build against what you did. In the case that you guys landed on even builds, the game will easily push out to longer game. And many times, P can equalize a game with warpin. Point is that it's extremely unreliable to win early. It's not a realistic expectation. Sometimes you can, but flip of the coin is that sometimes it sets you back and kills you.
Now for the longer games, go look at any of the macro TvP's played in the last month. Every game that was lost, they got antsy on 200 food and took a fight in the open. You will never have an even army trade in the open. No amount of spread, kiting, or whatever bullshit will save you. You are right. If you are taking fights in the open, when P can warpin 30-40 food for army, then yes banking favor P.
But have you ever seen the fight done when the P is forced to pass through a closed space? Have you seen the same fight when T turtles like in TvZ? Hint: the fight doesn't favor P. Time and bank no longer helps when zeals have to pass through a closed space. Mass Archons from bank no longer help because they will eat overlapping EMPs and be trashed. Vikings will sit over inaccessible terrain from stalkers and pick off your colo.
T CAN win 200 fights. It's ALL positioning. But to win the game, you need to combine that with the 20-30 food in drops that proper infrastructure+MULEs gives you to allow you to split the P army and create/punish errors.
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On February 25 2012 16:52 vorxaw wrote:Recently I have stumbled upon something that was worked very well. It is similar to what others have been saying, and it relies on you having pretty aggressive macro and ok multitasking. While they are turtling, you get your third. Once they take their third is when I start dropping, two drops on either side (big enough so they deal with it using entire army, not just warpins), and viking fleet outfront. Protoss will almost alllllways have their entire army on 1 hotkey, so they will be walking back and forth with their big deathball to deal with drops. As they walk by their main entrance you snipe their colossi little by little, since their army is in a stretched out formation from walking. The drops I usually try to snipe upgrades. By then you have way more production, around 20 rax, I do an initial attack with MMM+viking, sac vikings to kill all colossii, then insta-remax on marauders and medivacs. Without colossi, 3/3 marauders + med dont care about blink, storm, archon, zealot w/e
those sound like some pretty poor protoss players. I know I'm bad but that really annoys me when people send everything for one drop.
3/3 marauders + med do care about that stuff? Im sure any top terran will tell you that if they have 3/3 upgrades which they should when you have 3/3, marauders just don't deal enough damage to chargelots and you will get shredded by pure upgraded zealot archon if you don't have enough marines....let alone ghosts. and this is ignoring the infinite amount of storms he can land on your army if you have pure marauder no ghost.
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On February 25 2012 17:06 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:56 willyallthewei wrote:On February 25 2012 15:17 architecture wrote:On February 25 2012 15:08 willyallthewei wrote:
Biggest weakness w/ Macro Terran players is they don't understand what it means to play "low mineral" - as IM_MVP puts it.
Your race is godly on low mineral count, weaker on high, so intuitively this means you need to be forcing trades constantly, if you want to sit back and macro up 200/200 go play zerg.
This mentality is broken. People that spout this don't understand that builds+maps deeply affect what timings are possible. The reality is that there is no way to guarantee damage on a 3 base P. It all depends on T's build and P's build, and if there is asymmetry in which build is supposed to counter which. T excels on low minerals. But to imagine getting there by somehow preventing 2 base P, from taking a 3rd base, and then a 4th base, that's not realistic. Especially when 3rds+4ths are very easy to take on many maps. The way the low minerals applies is like this: you take the advantages that your build gives/doesn't give. And then you weather out the easy bases that the P can hold. Until the P has to start taking far bases that he can't defend efficiently. BAM now you're back down to 2 base. You can't deny the first 3-4 bases on most maps. But you can certainly do so on the next few bases. One significant advantage that TvP has over TvZ is that the P army doesn't get more dangerous with more bank. Warpins can be negated with terrain. More archons can be negated by ghost+energy accumulation. Colo can be hardcountered and are vulnerable. Unlike Z, P is unable to immediately convert it all into tech units. So time is on your side, the only thing you need is position. Right, IM_MVP's mentality is broken, good one there. Time is on your side? Protoss doesn't get more dangerous with more bank? Get a freaking clue. All the top Protoss players in the world when sitting on all tech trees and 200/200 and a huge bank are literally unbeatable in PvT, forget it. If you have Jakji like control you might beat someone of lesser calibre, that's it. Otherwise if you have anywhere near an even army trade, toss will be maxed before you get back up to 100 supply. Time is not on your side, and for you to say something idiotic like that proves you're the one who "doesn't understand" the game. As for not being able to deny 3rd and 4th bases? Lmao, considering how many TvP builds are designed to do exactly that at the professional level, I think you ought to reevaluate your knowledge of anything starcraft related. Read and your your brain next time. I said that MVP is exactly right, except most maps and many builds you will be unable to do damage on 2 base. So you need to starve the Protoss back down to two base to kill him. Up to the first max, you will only do damage/cripple P if he did the wrong build against what you did. In the case that you guys landed on even builds, the game will easily push out to longer game. And many times, P can equalize a game with warpin. Point is that it's extremely unreliable to win early. It's not a realistic expectation. Sometimes you can, but flip of the coin is that sometimes it sets you back and kills you. Now for the longer games, go look at any of the macro TvP's played in the last month. Every game that was lost, they got antsy on 200 food and took a fight in the open. You will never have an even army trade in the open. No amount of spread, kiting, or whatever bullshit will save you. You are right. If you are taking fights in the open, when P can warpin 30-40 food for army, then yes banking favor P. But have you ever seen the fight done when the P is forced to pass through a closed space? Have you seen the same fight when T turtles like in TvZ? Hint: the fight doesn't favor P. Time and bank no longer helps when zeals have to pass through a closed space. Mass Archons from bank no longer help because they will eat overlapping EMPs and be trashed. Vikings will sit over inaccessible terrain from stalkers and pick off your colo. T CAN win 200 fights. It's ALL positioning. But to win the game, you need to combine that with the 20-30 food in drops that proper infrastructure+MULEs gives you to allow you to split the P army and create/punish errors.
jinro versus elfi on daybreak? at assembly yesterday exemplified this perfectly. Only thing I don't like about this is that most maps the middle is the open part....therefore to not lose a 200/200 fight you have to let the protoss player control centre of the map making your outer expansions vulnerable at times....although I guess you can use nukes to force them back
again you could say it's the protoss players fault for engaging here and if a protoss player plays well he will never engage like this. I would like to see in future terran players sac scvs a bit more and when they sac them make some battlecruisers...as I don't think you can realistically remax on bc's as their build time is too long, so this is the only good point to be able to get some out (as well as losing supply to drops)
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The whole game is about forcing errors. You have 55 SCVs, so can afford to throw 20-30 food around in dropships. If he has warpins, he can warpin. If he doesn't warpin enough, he loses tech or outlying expansion. If he can hold, then you are even, and traded units hopefully evenly.
Now here's where it's interesting. What if he can't hold because of a position error or no warpins? Now he has to pull units back to multiple locations OR engage you in a bad position. If he engages, you trade and reset the big army. If he pulls back, you reposition, and force engage in bad position for him. So your drops are forcing even trades AND positional errors.
What you don't do is take your 200 army and fight him in the fucking center like every T has been doing. This doesn't work, this is why this thread exists because people are wondering why they lose. It doesn't work for all the reasons that have been hammered to death.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/URcD4.jpg)
Red circles is where you should be defensively positioned. Blue squares are where you should have simcity to reduce melee surface area.
You camp until your drops deposition him and he is forced to either attack OR split.
The other ramps are positions where you can possibly have fights if the P army is split, moved away etc. Don't ever take a bad fight because warpin will destroy you after.
The outer bases are practically impossible to hold, and they represent the low money scenario that MVP is talking about. By 30m, you will be back down to 2 base, and once P army no longer is able to hold its form with all tech support, you will be able to engage straight up again with MMM.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JnEtn.jpg)
Here's another example with positioning. As you take more bases, you slowly expand where your simcity is.
One example of late game is that you have 150 army, he has 130 army.
1. You drop with 20 food into his main and start killing pylons tech.
2. He doesn't have warpin, or you kill all his warpin by camping between buildings, and then he pulls back his army.
3. Since he didn't attack you, you can now dump another 20 food into a drop at his outlying expo. He can choose to warpin there, or come to attack you, but the travel time means you will have replenished the lost drop food you had from 1.
Notice none of this involves you EVER fighting him in the open. That space in the middle? Don't go there.
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It might sound retarded when you first read this, but meh;
Does it really makes sense that the race with the most cost effective units with such a strong late-game army actually has access to the warp-in mechanic?
I have never liked the warp in mechanic ever since SC2 release and I believe the game would be very much better without it.
IMO, pylons should only allowed to be placed within a set range from a nexus. That way if Toss wants to set up that proxy pylon, they need to set up a proxy nexus too.... at the least if they won't take it out of the game.
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On February 25 2012 17:06 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:56 willyallthewei wrote:On February 25 2012 15:17 architecture wrote:On February 25 2012 15:08 willyallthewei wrote:
Biggest weakness w/ Macro Terran players is they don't understand what it means to play "low mineral" - as IM_MVP puts it.
Your race is godly on low mineral count, weaker on high, so intuitively this means you need to be forcing trades constantly, if you want to sit back and macro up 200/200 go play zerg.
This mentality is broken. People that spout this don't understand that builds+maps deeply affect what timings are possible. The reality is that there is no way to guarantee damage on a 3 base P. It all depends on T's build and P's build, and if there is asymmetry in which build is supposed to counter which. T excels on low minerals. But to imagine getting there by somehow preventing 2 base P, from taking a 3rd base, and then a 4th base, that's not realistic. Especially when 3rds+4ths are very easy to take on many maps. The way the low minerals applies is like this: you take the advantages that your build gives/doesn't give. And then you weather out the easy bases that the P can hold. Until the P has to start taking far bases that he can't defend efficiently. BAM now you're back down to 2 base. You can't deny the first 3-4 bases on most maps. But you can certainly do so on the next few bases. One significant advantage that TvP has over TvZ is that the P army doesn't get more dangerous with more bank. Warpins can be negated with terrain. More archons can be negated by ghost+energy accumulation. Colo can be hardcountered and are vulnerable. Unlike Z, P is unable to immediately convert it all into tech units. So time is on your side, the only thing you need is position. Right, IM_MVP's mentality is broken, good one there. Time is on your side? Protoss doesn't get more dangerous with more bank? Get a freaking clue. All the top Protoss players in the world when sitting on all tech trees and 200/200 and a huge bank are literally unbeatable in PvT, forget it. If you have Jakji like control you might beat someone of lesser calibre, that's it. Otherwise if you have anywhere near an even army trade, toss will be maxed before you get back up to 100 supply. Time is not on your side, and for you to say something idiotic like that proves you're the one who "doesn't understand" the game. As for not being able to deny 3rd and 4th bases? Lmao, considering how many TvP builds are designed to do exactly that at the professional level, I think you ought to reevaluate your knowledge of anything starcraft related. Read and your your brain next time. I said that MVP is exactly right, except most maps and many builds you will be unable to do damage on 2 base. So you need to starve the Protoss back down to two base to kill him. Up to the first max, you will only do damage/cripple P if he did the wrong build against what you did. In the case that you guys landed on even builds, the game will easily push out to longer game. And many times, P can equalize a game with warpin. Point is that it's extremely unreliable to win early. It's not a realistic expectation. Sometimes you can, but flip of the coin is that sometimes it sets you back and kills you. Now for the longer games, go look at any of the macro TvP's played in the last month. Every game that was lost, they got antsy on 200 food and took a fight in the open. You will never have an even army trade in the open. No amount of spread, kiting, or whatever bullshit will save you. You are right. If you are taking fights in the open, when P can warpin 30-40 food for army, then yes banking favor P. But have you ever seen the fight done when the P is forced to pass through a closed space? Have you seen the same fight when T turtles like in TvZ? Hint: the fight doesn't favor P. Time and bank no longer helps when zeals have to pass through a closed space. Mass Archons from bank no longer help because they will eat overlapping EMPs and be trashed. Vikings will sit over inaccessible terrain from stalkers and pick off your colo. T CAN win 200 fights. It's ALL positioning. But to win the game, you need to combine that with the 20-30 food in drops that proper infrastructure+MULEs gives you to allow you to split the P army and create/punish errors.
NO. you're entire strategy revolves around Protoss attacking into your defensive position? Are you freaking crazy?
That's half the PF strategy that is being used right now and has not yet worked on any protoss smart enough to not attack head on.
If your strategy is then to force warp ins with drops, i have news for you - Cannons cost 0 supply. Yup. Think long and hard about why that makes your entire strategy worthless.
At best you will turn late game Protoss into playing the way that Mech Terran does vs. Bio Terran. Cannon + use siege units (Colossus) to break down your simcity and PF's.
Artosis did an entire hour on the Todd vs. Nada game, there you can see what happens w/ this style.
Your theory that you cannot do damage on 2 base unless you have a BO advantage is rediculous, drop play allows you to out multitask and therefore out play your opponent to force errors in mid game.
You think those GSL terrans are needlessly antsy for having their armies out in the middle of the map in open space? No, they want to have constant control of the vision towers so they don't get stormed to death and the threat of drops is atleast somewhat viable. Once toss grabs teh towers and puts cannons under them, they win the vision and map control battle. Good luck getting a SINGE drop off against a good toss w/ map awareness and blink stalkers sharking around.
If you start giving up ground so your space is easier to defend, but toss as a result gets more vision, then you will almost never be able to out position him because he has your position pinned down, and for you to move out and take key positions after first giving them up would be a monumental task. This is simply because 4 or 5 cannons and 2 templar is a difficult positioin to break, even for a 200/200 bio ball. You have to meticulously break an position like that down, by the time you do, the main army has returned and you have gained no ground. meanwhile his blink stalkers do not need to be with the main army, heck he can have 20 supply in stalkers that never fight (dedicated drop ship hunters) once toss is in chargelot/archon/colossus mode.
Jakji - whose bio TvP is clearly the best in the world, has the right idea in the late game, he tries to use the mobility of the army overall to deal damage where the toss army is not. it's hard but doable. If you give up full map control to a maxed out protoss like Oz or MC, that's it, you have no chance in hell of getting anything by their stalkers.
Sometimes, when he is jokeying for position he is caught in the middle of the map. This is not his intention, but it is a risk he takes in trying to deal damage to the toss.
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You are forgetting two critical things that allow T to abuse position.
Vikings vs Colo.
Nukes vs cannons.
Nukes mean that any cannon spam can always be cleared cost effectively by T.
The strategy I'm explaining doesn't require P to attack into you unless the P is satisfied that you've mispositioned, or lost too many units.
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EPT
