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On February 24 2012 14:59 bellsNkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 05:52 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On February 24 2012 04:20 Zorgaz wrote:On February 24 2012 01:23 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Has TvP actually been developed AT ALL since the beta?
Has the Terran been doing the same thing since the beta?
Have Terran's been experimenting with mech?
Have they been experimenting with any other units apart from MMMG?
Do Terran players actually harass properly or have timing attacks to give them an advantage going into lategame?
The answer to the questions is all no, obviously. Amazed you can be so ignorant, Terran players have tried countless tactics since beta. Ever heard of Goody? He played mech against P for over a year before he decided bio was better. Ever read Warden's build, or the countless other skymech build that have been posted on the forums. The answer to the questions is all no, obviously. You use the word countless far too often. There are a FEW builds of actual significance, and I don't think you can really judge mech until it's in the hands of a top Terran (aka not Goody). This is a metagame thing, of course you will figure something out and you'd be a dumbass to think otherwise. Of course David Kim will listen to whatever balance complains people have because they don't seem to understand what a meta game is. Even now, a raven still isn't in common use, and Terran's complain that they lose all their vikings and can't deal with tech changes. Why not add thors into the army? They can cause feedbacks instead of storms (still soak up storms pretty well), act as a sort of forcefield against chargelots etc. I dunno man that's just an example but the amount of experimental play by Terran is piss poor and you can't complain until you have explored a lot of the options (which you haven't). glhf This was already discussed in SotG and even a protoss player was trying to tell everyone how mech is just a stupid idea in TvP as bio can achieve what mech can and even more. Like do you seriously believe that NO top level terran has EVER tried anything but MMMGV? That's just ignorant. These guys play starcraft as a full-time job. MVP has some 2 base timing pushes where he incorporates tanks, but completely ditches them after. I wonder why? Your theorycrafting of Thors is ridiculous. You think they can tank storms, feedback, AND chargelots? That's ridiculous and if Blizzard buffed the Thor to be able to do that than I'm all for it. I hate when Protoss players tell Terran to innovate and the only innovating they've ever done is get buffs.
P has to be really stupid to storm on top of a thor to beging with, unless he has like 15 templars full of energy...Its like saying that protoss should use pheonix to soak up emp... I mean... WHAT!?!
EDIT: I agree with you is what I'm saying, other units need buffs if were going to use em in TvP, the tweaks we do now are so minor.
Currently I play 1-1-1 medivac hellion into expand into siege push with marines and loads of banshees. If that gets stopped im screwed or if it goes longer then two base without me doing dmg.
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On February 24 2012 15:12 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 18:45 Feverus wrote:
Stop.
Step back.
You're not playing against Puzzle, Genius, Parting, or Brown.
Let me repeat that. You are not playing against good players with excellent macro, tactics, and defense who only make some mistakes. You are playing against relatively atrocious players who fail at every single aspect of the game - and this also applies to the top NA GMs, let alone the diamonds you're matched with. Even if the matchup is broken, you can still win.
Just get calm and comfortable and improve your own play; try to fix some of the innumerable mistakes you find in it (if you can't find them, that's your first big problem).
Some thoughts based on watching game #20:
Your bunker feels late. I'm surprised you aren't losing lots of games to stalker pressure. High level players who go with a late bunker like that probably rely on micro to survive.
Hide your scv further away. Just because it doesn't get scouted most games by bad players doesn't mean you have found a good spot. You can't rely on just hoping throwing down 3 bunkers will stop whatever the P does when you have no idea what he's doing! With no info on him, you should have scanned.
At 8:20, you've let him bully you into staying on 3 raxes with 1 addon and your factory just barely started and no engineering bay. Your early economic lead is rendered impotent as he tears you apart; you were up workers, then a little later he has another 10 workers, is at 56 and and you haven't built any.
OH GOD. 7 vikings is not enough against 4 colossus. Try 12 or more. You need enough your vikings can kill colo without your bio getting butchered, and as you can clearly see that is not happening.
You're at 42 workers against 72! LKDFJSLDKJFSLDF.
I must echo this sentiment towards non-GM terrans. Everyone sees the difficult late game and immediately assumes it's the match-up when there are tens of thousands of Terrans who would beat the protoss they are fighting. Compare yourself to a Korean Terran, realize the monumental gap in skill and how much he'd smash the protoss you lose to, then realize just getting a little better in that direction would cause you to beat the protoss you currently fight, and move on to stronger opponents. tl;dr don't focus on 'imbalance,' focus on getting better. Your mechanics/multi-tasking make a world of a difference and I assure you they're no where where they need to be.
The problem is not that protoss is unbeatable, its just that as the game goes on the protoss race becomes easier and easier to play. And opposite for the terran. It just seems to require so much more from the terrans side to win. That is in my eyes not balanced. Wouldnt it be more right if two opponents of equal skill met, the outcome would be around 50/50?
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Only garbage protoss players lose to mech.
Late game tvp is heavily protoss favored, this is in debate?
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Like others have said, you need to get it out of your mind that SC2 should be completely fair at every stage of the game. Even in Brood war, a game lauded for its balance, there were stages of a game where one race usually was more powerful than another. That's not to say that every single time one race was stronger, or that situations didn't exist where one race would be more powerful, but on average one race was stronger late game than another; one race was better in the midgame; etc.
IMO, Terrans have an advantage in the early to midgame on average, you should be using that advantage so that when/if the game goes to the point where the Protoss has an advantage, your advantages cancel eachother out. If I'm a boxer that's great early on, but I tire quickly, and I'm against a boxer who is less skilled, but has more stamina, then I'm not going to wade into the later rounds and hope to win - and if it does go to the later rounds, hopefully I've done some damage early on to equate for the disadvantage I have now that I'm tiring.
Protoss late game is very strong - sometimes. Terran late is weaker on average, but can be just as strong. Just play better in all stages of the game - it's not a balance problem.
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I sound like a broken record at this point, but T army can easily contest P army late game, it all comes down to 1 thing.
That's positioning.
Stop taking fights in the open against chargelot Archon. IF all of P's units are DPSing, you will lose. Just do the math, everything is higher DPS. But if you fight in a position where half of P's units are milling around and stuck, then you win. You should only be fighting big fights in chokes + simcities.
You will never win straight up once P has 3-4 bases. Every base represents 1 200/200 army. You will have to burn 4-5 big fights before P runs out of steam.
To sum up:
1. Cut SCVs, make OCs, such that you can afford 20-30 food in drops with at most a -10 dent in your main army.
2. Main army movement + positioning only to chokes and simcities, never take a fight in the open
3. Drops to force movement and get advantageous engages, starve P until he can no longer hold outer expos.
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On February 25 2012 03:53 architecture wrote:
I sound like a broken record at this point, but T army can easily contest P army late game, it all comes down to 1 thing.
That's positioning.
Stop taking fights in the open against chargelot Archon. IF all of P's units are DPSing, you will lose. Just do the math, everything is higher DPS. But if you fight in a position where half of P's units are milling around and stuck, then you win. You should only be fighting big fights in chokes + simcities.
You will never win straight up once P has 3-4 bases. Every base represents 1 200/200 army. You will have to burn 4-5 big fights before P runs out of steam.
To sum up:
1. Cut SCVs, make OCs, such that you can afford 20-30 food in drops with at most a -10 dent in your main army.
2. Main army movement + positioning only to chokes and simcities, never take a fight in the open
3. Drops to force movement and get advantageous engages, starve P until he can no longer hold outer expos.
Good luck winning all 4 battles to burn all of the tosses steam. Warp gate tech is a very bad and imbalanced game mechanic. If toss just had to rely on chronoing gateways to get out units faster vs being able to instantaniously get units out on the field than late game would be much more balanced. Late game toss is too forgiving of lost battles and bad micro and this is the reason why tvp is considered to be imbalanced.
Being able to instantly warp in chargelots/HT's/and Archons allows the toss to get more free chances at coming back into the game. Maybe blizzard should give terran a tech upgrade that allows us to drop in any rax unit instantly but make it require 25 energy per unit from the OC. That way terran would be able to keep up with toss's late game warp in capabilitys.
Terrans macro mechanic doesnt scale like tosses mechanic because terran will never be able to keep up with toss's warp in production in the late game. What I suggest doing is going for 1/1/1 all in variations and getting your 1/1/1 all ins very, very tight. I'd also suggest working on some strong 2 base pushes/all ins that will either win you the game out right or put you in a position where you can expand and win with another timing push.
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On February 25 2012 03:53 architecture wrote:
I sound like a broken record at this point, but T army can easily contest P army late game, it all comes down to 1 thing.
That's positioning.
Stop taking fights in the open against chargelot Archon. IF all of P's units are DPSing, you will lose. Just do the math, everything is higher DPS. But if you fight in a position where half of P's units are milling around and stuck, then you win. You should only be fighting big fights in chokes + simcities.
You will never win straight up once P has 3-4 bases. Every base represents 1 200/200 army. You will have to burn 4-5 big fights before P runs out of steam.
To sum up:
1. Cut SCVs, make OCs, such that you can afford 20-30 food in drops with at most a -10 dent in your main army.
2. Main army movement + positioning only to chokes and simcities, never take a fight in the open
3. Drops to force movement and get advantageous engages, starve P until he can no longer hold outer expos.
God ur seriously saying to fight a P army in a choke?? I agree with the zealot part, but how about the colossi/storm part?? I heard these two like units in chokes....
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Just go watch the bo9 IPL showmatch between LiquidHero and MouzThorzain. the first map was a 40+ min game on Taldarim Altar. Thorzain won. Terran lategam is perfectly playable vs toss. Just don't forget making 20 ghosts and not overproducing scvs.
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On February 25 2012 04:02 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 03:53 architecture wrote:
I sound like a broken record at this point, but T army can easily contest P army late game, it all comes down to 1 thing.
That's positioning.
Stop taking fights in the open against chargelot Archon. IF all of P's units are DPSing, you will lose. Just do the math, everything is higher DPS. But if you fight in a position where half of P's units are milling around and stuck, then you win. You should only be fighting big fights in chokes + simcities.
You will never win straight up once P has 3-4 bases. Every base represents 1 200/200 army. You will have to burn 4-5 big fights before P runs out of steam.
To sum up:
1. Cut SCVs, make OCs, such that you can afford 20-30 food in drops with at most a -10 dent in your main army.
2. Main army movement + positioning only to chokes and simcities, never take a fight in the open
3. Drops to force movement and get advantageous engages, starve P until he can no longer hold outer expos. Good luck winning all 4 battles to burn all of the tosses steam. Warp gate tech is a very bad and imbalanced game mechanic. If toss just had to rely on chronoing gateways to get out units faster vs being able to instantaniously get units out on the field than late game would be much more balanced. Late game toss is too forgiving of lost battles and bad micro and this is the reason why tvp is considered to be imbalanced. Being able to instantly warp in chargelots/HT's/and Archons allows the toss to get more free chances at coming back into the game. Maybe blizzard should give terran a tech upgrade that allows us to drop in any rax unit instantly but make it require 25 energy per unit from the OC. That way terran would be able to keep up with toss's late game warp in capabilitys. Terrans macro mechanic doesnt scale like tosses mechanic because terran will never be able to keep up with toss's warp in production in the late game. What I suggest doing is going for 1/1/1 all in variations and getting your 1/1/1 all ins very, very tight. I'd also suggest working on some strong 2 base pushes/all ins that will either win you the game out right or put you in a position where you can expand and win with another timing push.
If you are positioned properly, it's not hard. You goal in the big fights isn't to directly win, it's to break even, and have your 20-30 food of drops do the damage instead.
The fact is:
1. Warpin means Toss never loses a straight up fight.
2. After a fight, your composition will be in tatters, and you will have lost crucial units (most likely most of your marines), so you will almost never be in a position to directly push.
3. If you fight in the open, his initial army will be too efficient + he will have warpin.
So what you do is always fight when you have an extreme positional advantage, where another 15 zeals doesn't matter because of the terrain.
You DO have the positional advantage. IF you are positioned correctly, such that there is ONLY ONE direction of approach, you should be able to reliably negate HT and colo. Here's an example of a position:
PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
CHOKE| ************ | CHOKE
|*******TTTTTTT****************|
|*******TTTTTTT****************|
|*******TTTTTTT****************|
The idea is that P has to funnel his units, and maybe 1/3 of his units aren't DPSing. Your Vikings are also able to hover in an inaccessible position to potshot the colossus. The ghosts are of course in the front to EMP/snipe templar + archon. You backup + spread + concave as the fight progresses and the AOEs start landing.
If this is your base, you create these choke artificially with additional barracks. If this is like the area between your 3rd/4th, you might need PF as well. Without terrain, you lose, with terrain you win.
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On February 25 2012 04:20 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 03:53 architecture wrote:
I sound like a broken record at this point, but T army can easily contest P army late game, it all comes down to 1 thing.
That's positioning.
Stop taking fights in the open against chargelot Archon. IF all of P's units are DPSing, you will lose. Just do the math, everything is higher DPS. But if you fight in a position where half of P's units are milling around and stuck, then you win. You should only be fighting big fights in chokes + simcities.
You will never win straight up once P has 3-4 bases. Every base represents 1 200/200 army. You will have to burn 4-5 big fights before P runs out of steam.
To sum up:
1. Cut SCVs, make OCs, such that you can afford 20-30 food in drops with at most a -10 dent in your main army.
2. Main army movement + positioning only to chokes and simcities, never take a fight in the open
3. Drops to force movement and get advantageous engages, starve P until he can no longer hold outer expos. God ur seriously saying to fight a P army in a choke?? I agree with the zealot part, but how about the colossi/storm part?? I heard these two like units in chokes....
Yea, I am. Go try it yourself. Use your goddamn brain, fighting next to a choke doesn't mean stand clumped and take AOEs.
Take any map where there's a choke between two open areas. You will have plenty of space to spread and back up, while he will have to run to you. It's not that hard to negate HT in a position like that. Colo you will either spread out, or you will stutter back as a group depending on how the battle is going. As long as his colo are only hitting the front edge of your units you are doing it right.
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On February 24 2012 05:37 Sea_aeS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:55 Acritter wrote:
I believe there is still some room left for Terran to develop, especially in the realm of Reapers and Ravens. You know how Terrans will get a third Starport to pump out Vikings to deal with Colossi? That could be given a Tech Lab to squeeze out a Raven, which would in turn make it much easier for Vikings to survive Stalkers.
I'd like to give the game a little more time before pinning this lategame as "unwinnable". It was only very recently that lategame PvT became winnable, in part because of a Blizzard patch that reduced the incredible AOE on EMP. Raven IS USELESS VS FEEDBACK. Seriously how can u even say that raven could be of any use in late game when there are HTs ..... And ive nthg to say about your reapers "dreams" -_-. Edit: Btw when you are saying that: " It was only very recently that lategame PvT became winnable" i really hope you are joking... Before when the match up was imbalance in favor of the T there wasnt late at all anyway.
You can make a lot of comments about the raven, but feedback should not be one of them. Did that HT sneak up on you? Why don't you learn to micro against a substantially slower unit before you declare it useless?
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i think terrran needs to try doing this against toss
stop at about 10 marines, and make EVERYTHING ELSE marauders. and in battle, DONT EVEN BRING YOUR MARINES. just keep them at your base defending whatever dropship harassment the toss is probably trying
think about it lol. if you got pure mass 3/3 marauders, thats probably your best hope at stopping the zealot gayness. i know its a old idea... but its probably the only thing that works
dont even get ghosts, just pure 3/3 marauder and you can kite while being more tanky against storms and pull back to planetary fortresses when you need to heal your army and be covered
im thinking something like 7 vikings, 10 marines, 8 medivacs, everything else marauders. if the enemy has 3 collossi, you want 10 vikings. 4 collossi, 13 vikings. 5 collossi, 16 vikings. 6 collossi or more, 18 vikings and thats the max stop at getting any more.
Do not let your vikings hover over archons because archon splash rapes vikings too hard
mass pure maraurders, nothing else. dont even get ghosts. thats your only hope against toss
i guess slowly, slowly, slowly, you can turn lategame gas into battlecruisers. thats an option of something to spend your gas on. other than that, pure marauders
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troll ^
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On February 25 2012 05:33 roymarthyup wrote:
i think terrran needs to try doing this against toss
stop at about 10 marines, and make EVERYTHING ELSE marauders. and in battle, DONT EVEN BRING YOUR MARINES. just keep them at your base defending whatever dropship harassment the toss is probably trying
think about it lol. if you got pure mass 3/3 marauders, thats probably your best hope at stopping the zealot gayness. i know its a old idea... but its probably the only thing that works
dont even get ghosts, just pure 3/3 marauder and you can kite while being more tanky against storms and pull back to planetary fortresses when you need to heal your army and be covered
im thinking something like 7 vikings, 10 marines, 8 medivacs, everything else marauders. if the enemy has 3 collossi, you want 10 vikings. 4 collossi, 13 vikings. 5 collossi, 16 vikings. 6 collossi or more, 18 vikings and thats the max stop at getting any more.
Do not let your vikings hover over archons because archon splash rapes vikings too hard
mass pure maraurders, nothing else. dont even get ghosts. thats your only hope against toss
i guess slowly, slowly, slowly, you can turn lategame gas into battlecruisers. thats an option of something to spend your gas on. other than that, pure marauders
can I get some of the stuff you're smoking? Appears to be really good.
Seriously, zealots assrape marauders so fuckin hard, it isn't even funny. Simple chargelot archon would kill your rauders in 2 seconds and don't even think about storms.
And no ghosts is suicide against templar. They could literally go mass immortals to kill that.
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On February 25 2012 06:05 OmegaKnetus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 05:33 roymarthyup wrote:
i think terrran needs to try doing this against toss
stop at about 10 marines, and make EVERYTHING ELSE marauders. and in battle, DONT EVEN BRING YOUR MARINES. just keep them at your base defending whatever dropship harassment the toss is probably trying
think about it lol. if you got pure mass 3/3 marauders, thats probably your best hope at stopping the zealot gayness. i know its a old idea... but its probably the only thing that works
dont even get ghosts, just pure 3/3 marauder and you can kite while being more tanky against storms and pull back to planetary fortresses when you need to heal your army and be covered
im thinking something like 7 vikings, 10 marines, 8 medivacs, everything else marauders. if the enemy has 3 collossi, you want 10 vikings. 4 collossi, 13 vikings. 5 collossi, 16 vikings. 6 collossi or more, 18 vikings and thats the max stop at getting any more.
Do not let your vikings hover over archons because archon splash rapes vikings too hard
mass pure maraurders, nothing else. dont even get ghosts. thats your only hope against toss
i guess slowly, slowly, slowly, you can turn lategame gas into battlecruisers. thats an option of something to spend your gas on. other than that, pure marauders can I get some of the stuff you're smoking? Appears to be really good. Seriously, zealots assrape marauders so fuckin hard, it isn't even funny. Simple chargelot archon would kill your rauders in 2 seconds and don't even think about storms. And no ghosts is suicide against templar. They could literally go mass immortals to kill that.
good point about immortals and archons
i guess get a couple ghosts and keep um back and only use them for immortals and archons
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On February 24 2012 18:21 MiraculiX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 15:12 Tyrant0 wrote:On February 19 2012 18:45 Feverus wrote:
Stop.
Step back.
You're not playing against Puzzle, Genius, Parting, or Brown.
Let me repeat that. You are not playing against good players with excellent macro, tactics, and defense who only make some mistakes. You are playing against relatively atrocious players who fail at every single aspect of the game - and this also applies to the top NA GMs, let alone the diamonds you're matched with. Even if the matchup is broken, you can still win.
Just get calm and comfortable and improve your own play; try to fix some of the innumerable mistakes you find in it (if you can't find them, that's your first big problem).
Some thoughts based on watching game #20:
Your bunker feels late. I'm surprised you aren't losing lots of games to stalker pressure. High level players who go with a late bunker like that probably rely on micro to survive.
Hide your scv further away. Just because it doesn't get scouted most games by bad players doesn't mean you have found a good spot. You can't rely on just hoping throwing down 3 bunkers will stop whatever the P does when you have no idea what he's doing! With no info on him, you should have scanned.
At 8:20, you've let him bully you into staying on 3 raxes with 1 addon and your factory just barely started and no engineering bay. Your early economic lead is rendered impotent as he tears you apart; you were up workers, then a little later he has another 10 workers, is at 56 and and you haven't built any.
OH GOD. 7 vikings is not enough against 4 colossus. Try 12 or more. You need enough your vikings can kill colo without your bio getting butchered, and as you can clearly see that is not happening.
You're at 42 workers against 72! LKDFJSLDKJFSLDF.
I must echo this sentiment towards non-GM terrans. Everyone sees the difficult late game and immediately assumes it's the match-up when there are tens of thousands of Terrans who would beat the protoss they are fighting. Compare yourself to a Korean Terran, realize the monumental gap in skill and how much he'd smash the protoss you lose to, then realize just getting a little better in that direction would cause you to beat the protoss you currently fight, and move on to stronger opponents. tl;dr don't focus on 'imbalance,' focus on getting better. Your mechanics/multi-tasking make a world of a difference and I assure you they're no where where they need to be. The problem is not that protoss is unbeatable, its just that as the game goes on the protoss race becomes easier and easier to play. And opposite for the terran. It just seems to require so much more from the terrans side to win. That is in my eyes not balanced. Wouldnt it be more right if two opponents of equal skill met, the outcome would be around 50/50?
Ok, Protoss isn't unbeatable, and the win rates are pretty close to 50/50; what's your point? The meta game shifts every few months as does the winrates. TvP has swung in favor of the Protoss. Is that the reason diamond terran lose to diamond protoss? No.
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On February 25 2012 06:29 Tyrant0 wrote:
Ok, Protoss isn't unbeatable, and the win rates are pretty close to 50/50; what's your point? The meta game shifts every few months as does the winrates. TvP has swung in favor of the Protoss. Is that the reason diamond terran lose to diamond protoss? No.
Actually yes since Terran has been stripped of all "easymode" abilities while protoss still has all remaining.
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win rates are pretty close but i am pretty sure most of the T wins are short games. i play protoss and terran at a close level and i feel much safer with protoss in lategame
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On February 25 2012 06:29 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 18:21 MiraculiX wrote:On February 24 2012 15:12 Tyrant0 wrote:On February 19 2012 18:45 Feverus wrote:
Stop.
Step back.
You're not playing against Puzzle, Genius, Parting, or Brown.
Let me repeat that. You are not playing against good players with excellent macro, tactics, and defense who only make some mistakes. You are playing against relatively atrocious players who fail at every single aspect of the game - and this also applies to the top NA GMs, let alone the diamonds you're matched with. Even if the matchup is broken, you can still win.
Just get calm and comfortable and improve your own play; try to fix some of the innumerable mistakes you find in it (if you can't find them, that's your first big problem).
Some thoughts based on watching game #20:
Your bunker feels late. I'm surprised you aren't losing lots of games to stalker pressure. High level players who go with a late bunker like that probably rely on micro to survive.
Hide your scv further away. Just because it doesn't get scouted most games by bad players doesn't mean you have found a good spot. You can't rely on just hoping throwing down 3 bunkers will stop whatever the P does when you have no idea what he's doing! With no info on him, you should have scanned.
At 8:20, you've let him bully you into staying on 3 raxes with 1 addon and your factory just barely started and no engineering bay. Your early economic lead is rendered impotent as he tears you apart; you were up workers, then a little later he has another 10 workers, is at 56 and and you haven't built any.
OH GOD. 7 vikings is not enough against 4 colossus. Try 12 or more. You need enough your vikings can kill colo without your bio getting butchered, and as you can clearly see that is not happening.
You're at 42 workers against 72! LKDFJSLDKJFSLDF.
I must echo this sentiment towards non-GM terrans. Everyone sees the difficult late game and immediately assumes it's the match-up when there are tens of thousands of Terrans who would beat the protoss they are fighting. Compare yourself to a Korean Terran, realize the monumental gap in skill and how much he'd smash the protoss you lose to, then realize just getting a little better in that direction would cause you to beat the protoss you currently fight, and move on to stronger opponents. tl;dr don't focus on 'imbalance,' focus on getting better. Your mechanics/multi-tasking make a world of a difference and I assure you they're no where where they need to be. The problem is not that protoss is unbeatable, its just that as the game goes on the protoss race becomes easier and easier to play. And opposite for the terran. It just seems to require so much more from the terrans side to win. That is in my eyes not balanced. Wouldnt it be more right if two opponents of equal skill met, the outcome would be around 50/50? Ok, Protoss isn't unbeatable, and the win rates are pretty close to 50/50; what's your point? The meta game shifts every few months as does the winrates. TvP has swung in favor of the Protoss. Is that the reason diamond terran lose to diamond protoss? No.
Most T players aren't saying protoss is unbeatable. They are simply saying that when it goes late game, the chances of beating a P becomes harder and harder, its downright a fact that a P of similiar skill against the T will win if the game goes on toward this point. The winrate maybe close to 50/50 but that takes into account everything (short games, all ins w/e).
If we were to see the late game winrates in TvP (past 15~20mins) it would further prove or debunk our point.
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I do not understand the complaints about Protoss insta-remaxing their deathball. That really only works for one unit and it is their tier one unit.
Warp does not work for Stargate and Robo units or for Archons.
DT's are admittedly scary, but I do not believe this thread is focused towards those.
Toss could remax Stalkers, but they are so bad in the late game that there is no point.
Warping in low energy Sentries is pointless.
High Templars must wait to get enough energy for storm making them about 10 seconds slower than Ghosts.
The only advantage is that Zealots shows up 20 seconds before Marines, but in order to make use of those Zealots Protoss must engage near Terran's base where any sort of wall can hold off the melee units.
The Protoss is challenged by the fact that EMPs will show up after 40 seconds, while the counter, Colossus, can only reach Terran base after 105 seconds (assuming a 30 second walk which is quite short).
In practice if there was truly an even trade in the first battle, it is tough for Protoss to do damage with Zealots.
Where the Warp In of Zealots is strong is after Protoss won the first engagement. Basically from there a round of Zealots insta waprs in and Protoss can finish the game off more quickly than would have been otherwise possible.
This is a case of "win more" where the Zealots did not turn the tide of the game, but merely accelerated the already determined outcome.
If you as a Terran lose your army, but Protoss still has a few Colossus left and maybe a storm or 2, then it was the original engagement that lost you the game. It was not the reinforcing Zealots.
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EPT
