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On February 19 2012 18:45 Feverus wrote:
Let me repeat that. You are not playing against good players with excellent macro, tactics, and defense who only make some mistakes. You are playing against relatively atrocious players who fail at every single aspect of the game - and this also applies to the top NA GMs, let alone the diamonds you're matched with. Even if the matchup is broken, you can still win.
im pretty sure he knows that. yet its frustrating to less against lesser skilled opponents.
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On February 22 2012 10:53 CarelessPride wrote:
lol ... why do people think protoss is made of money? you do know their making less than a terran ALWAYS because of mules and they have less bases because of mobility.... if he saves up 10k mineral and gas so he can instant max on his 40 gates i ahave to ask.. what were u doing this whole time.. fapping? plz learn to macro.. jokes aside in diamond you can jsut win from pure macro. you just max out at like 14 mins and a move to victory. this is coming from a master player who almost never lose to late game toss. also drop everywhere. you dont need to do damage, just keep him out of his comfort zone along with forcing his army at home or force cannons. if he gets like 4 cannons at every base then well done bro just a move the front and its gg
worthless comments fall on deaf ears...
"you can just win from macro"
"you do know their making less than a terran ALWAYS because of mules and they have less bases because of mobility"
QED.
btw, if you're masters you should prob watch pro play before talking so much trash like you know what you are talking about... which you obviously don't. Fast 3 bases for toss has become more and more popular since terrans are not 1-1-1ing hardly anymore.
Also dude, its called chrono boost. Mules are nice, but chrono is more versitile. Chrono can mean more probes (equal to mules, except probes dont vanish after 30 sec) or faster tech.
I would love love love to see you max at 14 minutes and 'a-move' cause your under-upgraded army will be so good vs colosi and ht's on highground.
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On February 23 2012 01:25 moregamethanSEGA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 10:53 CarelessPride wrote:
lol ... why do people think protoss is made of money? you do know their making less than a terran ALWAYS because of mules and they have less bases because of mobility.... if he saves up 10k mineral and gas so he can instant max on his 40 gates i ahave to ask.. what were u doing this whole time.. fapping? plz learn to macro.. jokes aside in diamond you can jsut win from pure macro. you just max out at like 14 mins and a move to victory. this is coming from a master player who almost never lose to late game toss. also drop everywhere. you dont need to do damage, just keep him out of his comfort zone along with forcing his army at home or force cannons. if he gets like 4 cannons at every base then well done bro just a move the front and its gg worthless comments fall on deaf ears... "you can just win from macro" "you do know their making less than a terran ALWAYS because of mules and they have less bases because of mobility" QED. btw, if you're masters you should prob watch pro play before talking so much trash like you know what you are talking about... which you obviously don't. Fast 3 bases for toss has become more and more popular since terrans are not 1-1-1ing hardly anymore. Also dude, its called chrono boost. Mules are nice, but chrono is more versitile. Chrono can mean more probes (equal to mules, except probes dont vanish after 30 sec) or faster tech. I would love love love to see you max at 14 minutes and 'a-move' cause your under-upgraded army will be so good vs colosi and ht's on highground.
You know whats also popular? really quick 3rd ccs from terran. JUST SAYING
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I'm shocked at the answers and that it hasn't mentioned before but the reason why you can't macro and fight head-on against Protoss is the supply density of their army - this has been stated by several professionals; MKP the most prominent one. You need, and I repeat, you need to kill the Protoss before he has 6 gas or the game is lost if he doesn't a major mistake.
At a certain level, Diamond and above, SC2 is a three base race game. There was a theorycrafting article which explained this in detail and why SC2 is becoming more and more a Protoss favoured game. I've analyzed hundreds of replays and came to the conclusion that the most common error in TvP macro games is that for foreigners drops are not very effective. You won't find a TvP replay within the last 3 months with equal foreign competitors where drops did an acceptable amount of damage as opposed to Korean drops.
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I fell completely opposite - PvT is hardest matchup for me - cause if i try to macro or tech i die to 2 base timings and if i don't I must lose in late game cause 0 0 P and 2 colosus vs 2 2 T bio is worthless. T can haras as much as he wants with drops and build 3-4 PF and be safe. Also late game macro CC fewer scv and T has bigger army. I just all in T cause macro seems hopeless for toss.
High diamond toss <--- so take it with some reserve.
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Dunno why you guys think TvP is hard lategame. If you have no clue on how to play it, go watch IPL showmatch Thorzain vs Hero. The first map was a 35 min+ game on taldarim that Thorzain won.
Lategame you want many orbitals/planeteries. Not too many scvs. 20 + ghost with cloack.
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Have you considered trying mech with ghosts because it crushes my standard protoss ball? Also a big complaint I hear from terran on ladder is that toss have too much AOE damage, but they try and fight storm and colossus in straight up engagements. Maybe try something new because MMM ball has been the go to strat for terran since beta.
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On February 23 2012 02:37 CptBeefheart wrote:
Have you considered trying mech with ghosts because it crushes my standard protoss ball? Also a big complaint I hear from terran on ladder is that toss have too much AOE damage, but they try and fight storm and colossus in straight up engagements. Maybe try something new because MMM ball has been the go to strat for terran since beta.
Guess what, the hardcounter to mech comes out of gates and robo, just like your standard deathball.
On top of that blink stalker harassment and warpprism play shits all over mech.
It only works on shakuras and shattered temple and only if protoss sits on his ass for 20 minutes and amoves into 20+ siege tanks
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On February 23 2012 01:40 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 01:25 moregamethanSEGA wrote:On February 22 2012 10:53 CarelessPride wrote:
lol ... why do people think protoss is made of money? you do know their making less than a terran ALWAYS because of mules and they have less bases because of mobility.... if he saves up 10k mineral and gas so he can instant max on his 40 gates i ahave to ask.. what were u doing this whole time.. fapping? plz learn to macro.. jokes aside in diamond you can jsut win from pure macro. you just max out at like 14 mins and a move to victory. this is coming from a master player who almost never lose to late game toss. also drop everywhere. you dont need to do damage, just keep him out of his comfort zone along with forcing his army at home or force cannons. if he gets like 4 cannons at every base then well done bro just a move the front and its gg worthless comments fall on deaf ears... "you can just win from macro" "you do know their making less than a terran ALWAYS because of mules and they have less bases because of mobility" QED. btw, if you're masters you should prob watch pro play before talking so much trash like you know what you are talking about... which you obviously don't. Fast 3 bases for toss has become more and more popular since terrans are not 1-1-1ing hardly anymore. Also dude, its called chrono boost. Mules are nice, but chrono is more versitile. Chrono can mean more probes (equal to mules, except probes dont vanish after 30 sec) or faster tech. I would love love love to see you max at 14 minutes and 'a-move' cause your under-upgraded army will be so good vs colosi and ht's on highground. You know whats also popular? really quick 3rd ccs from terran. JUST SAYING
FTL? GO WATCH Alicia vs Sc from todays GSL (gm 1). It's not popular dude, its meta-gamey, and by no means will guarentee victory.
Check out this replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66872/?set=1
Alicia easily wins if he doesn't engage like a dumdum. I agree that terrans are doing this, but this is at GM level amongst players who play against each other a great deal. For you and me on ladder, how often are you really gonna double expand knowing that most people dont give a sh*t about macro games and you WILL lose to blink play, fast colosi, warp prisms, 4 gate, etc...
JUST SAYING.
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On February 23 2012 04:37 moregamethanSEGA wrote:Check out this replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66872/?set=1Alicia easily wins if he doesn't engage like a dumdum. I agree that terrans are doing this, but this is at GM level amongst players who play against each other a great deal. For you and me on ladder, how often are you really gonna double expand knowing that most people dont give a sh*t about macro games and you WILL lose to blink play, fast colosi, warp prisms, 4 gate, etc... JUST SAYING.
Watch the game, sC checks that there is no double gas.
Builds 3rd CC with scouting scv. It's not luck, no metagame.
4gate is only one base play he could do with 1 gas. And nobody dies to 4 gates really.
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On February 23 2012 02:37 CptBeefheart wrote:
Have you considered trying mech with ghosts because it crushes my standard protoss ball? Also a big complaint I hear from terran on ladder is that toss have too much AOE damage, but they try and fight storm and colossus in straight up engagements. Maybe try something new because MMM ball has been the go to strat for terran since beta.
Everything about this statement is false. MMM ball isnt go-to strat, its THE ONLY STRAT that wins in lategame-games (which is the topic of this post). The reason is becasue you cannot FE into mech, its too slow (army is too immobile), risky (cant get enough units out), and you have no buffer units (hellions suck BAD) mid-lategame once he multiple colosi out.
Then there is feedback, blink stalkers or chargelots, upgraded, with immortals, once he realizes you are an idiot and going for mech.
And it is not... "too much AOE," You are directly stating that Terran CANNOT engage protoss in 'straight up fight' with Colosi and HT's, and yet somehow that means to you that they don't have a disadvantage? Yes, it does...
I mean, mech CAN work if you can kill like 20 probes in early/midgame like MKP - otherwise you fail.
You are explicitly ignoring the part where you MAKE IT to the lategame with mech (with ghosts no less).
Btw, where is all this gas coming from noobslice? Let me guess, the 3 bases I magically have after FE?
Go play as terran, then come back and tell me how that build went when you are 2-8 and got demoted into silver...
you will realize how stupid you sound when you cant even kill zealots with blueflame and snipes/EMPs as his deathball collapses on you.
... and heaven forbid he proxy stargates you with your 4 hellions and two marines out.
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On February 22 2012 20:16 Nyast wrote:
I'm a toss player at mid/high master's level and I almost never win a late game PvT. So I'd love to see you post replays of you losing in end-game, because I always get owned by any Terran that's semi-competent at macroing.
Id love to see some of your replays to, if your not winning in late game with the race that is designed for late game domination somethings wierd...
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On February 23 2012 05:00 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:37 moregamethanSEGA wrote:Check out this replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66872/?set=1Alicia easily wins if he doesn't engage like a dumdum. I agree that terrans are doing this, but this is at GM level amongst players who play against each other a great deal. For you and me on ladder, how often are you really gonna double expand knowing that most people dont give a sh*t about macro games and you WILL lose to blink play, fast colosi, warp prisms, 4 gate, etc... JUST SAYING. Watch the game, sC checks that there is no double gas. Builds 3rd CC with scouting scv. It's not luck, no metagame. 4gate is only one base play he could do with 1 gas. And nobody dies to 4 gates really.
Good point, however,
1) LUCKILY Alicia didnt scout it.
2) Yes, it is metagame - he knows 4 gate isn't coming? He CAN'T KNOW that at 20-22 supply (no third pylon). And warp prism/robo play is still possible at that point. Usually toss will take 2nd gass at 22 unless he is trying to tech quickly.
3) The point is: even on one less base, Toss is TOTALLY FINE until he miscontrols army. And usually that one battle determines game (as the casters duely pointed out) so tell me how this proves anything other than a 3 base terran can (sometimes) beat a 2 base toss who doesn't scout for sh*t.
4) "4gate is only one base play he could do with 1 gas." - dont make assumptions like this, even Day9 would agree.
There is a large degree or risk/reward for Sc. The problem I find is that this 'great risk' doesn't even give him a clear advantage to the point where he can actually kill Alicia.
And, obviously you haven't seen an 6-8 gate followup from a toss lately, that would simply have killed
SC (his tech was soooooo delayed).
But the point of this topic is lategame oriented, so all I will say is that regardless of the number of bases, a lategame battle between toss and terran seems to favor the toss (if ever so slightly) from my experience, all things being equal. Notice even after decisive battle win, Sc STILL COULDN'T KILL Alicia...
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On February 23 2012 02:51 OmegaKnetus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 02:37 CptBeefheart wrote:
Have you considered trying mech with ghosts because it crushes my standard protoss ball? Also a big complaint I hear from terran on ladder is that toss have too much AOE damage, but they try and fight storm and colossus in straight up engagements. Maybe try something new because MMM ball has been the go to strat for terran since beta. Guess what, the hardcounter to mech comes out of gates and robo, just like your standard deathball. On top of that blink stalker harassment and warpprism play shits all over mech. It only works on shakuras and shattered temple and only if protoss sits on his ass for 20 minutes and amoves into 20+ siege tanks
BINGO.
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edit/ *don't want to get involved in pointless race arguments
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On February 19 2012 18:52 mothergoose729 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:28 Emperor_Earth wrote:On February 19 2012 17:25 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 19 2012 17:22 Emperor_Earth wrote:On February 19 2012 17:18 mothergoose729 wrote:
Hi emporer. In the two games were I attacked the front, I thought based on the fast robo and the upgrades I might have a time to do damage. In the third game, I didn't attack the front against the same build because I knew from the previous two it didn't work.
In the antiga game, I found myself significantly ahead but I didn't know what to do with that lead. My thought was that if I forced trades I could eventually wear him down. I don't have a very high win percentage against a protoss that gets to have and keep a third base. I think in the future I would play more passively with my lead, but I still wouldn't know what to do once I maxed out and had all the tech I wanted. How to I break them? Whats to stop the protoss from casually taking gold when they max out and turtling further? As they spread, defending drops becomes much harder. If you have a base or two up, the onus is on them to come out to you. Just stay outside his base pre spread out and ready to outconcave him with a drop or two daring him to meet you. He can't reliably tech switch with you having extra scans and more resources to race them that way so they have to come out for an allin. If he's really a baddie, after you get like 30 rax/15 starpoints 3-5 with reactors rest tech labs + fusion core, then make extra OCs and start sacing scvs ten at a time. So essentially try and contain him to three bases? This is my goal if I get ahead? I feel like even with a pre spread a max toss army, especially a max toss army that cut probes at like 50, is so strong. How do I make sure I win that fight or force a favorable trade? Don't always do one thing. Understand what each strat requires and risks. If a toss maxes out at 150 in army, he obv is allining and will not have any ability to sustain that attack. 1941 him. E.g., make it a multifront war where the push into the heartland will meet multiple walls of your troops. The farther away he goes from his base, the more vulnerable his own base is and the longer his reinforcement line is. And his reproduction capability is very limited. Not to be rude, but that didn't make any sense to me. I am ahead on bases. My drop harrass worked, they are turtling hardcore. Now what do I do? I don't understand how to make that eco lead count because my experience is that protoss just turtles and maxes out slower. We end up in the same place as if they got to expand whenver they wanted to, it just takes longer.
and that time gap is a resource that terran has, both in tvz and tvp. use it.
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On February 23 2012 05:00 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:37 moregamethanSEGA wrote:Check out this replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66872/?set=1Alicia easily wins if he doesn't engage like a dumdum. I agree that terrans are doing this, but this is at GM level amongst players who play against each other a great deal. For you and me on ladder, how often are you really gonna double expand knowing that most people dont give a sh*t about macro games and you WILL lose to blink play, fast colosi, warp prisms, 4 gate, etc... JUST SAYING. Watch the game, sC checks that there is no double gas. Builds 3rd CC with scouting scv. It's not luck, no metagame. 4gate is only one base play he could do with 1 gas. And nobody dies to 4 gates really.
You can do the warp prism bullshit with 1 gas,
you can also do a voidray 5 gate zealot all in off 1 gas.
EDIT:
Also blink stalker all in can come off 1 gas.
lol Gas timing pretty much means nothing for toss. You can eliminate some possibilties, but the problem is the reponse to the strategies still available is completely different so it doesnt help a whole lot.
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On February 20 2012 14:21 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:28 Emperor_Earth wrote:On February 19 2012 17:25 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 19 2012 17:22 Emperor_Earth wrote:On February 19 2012 17:18 mothergoose729 wrote:
Hi emporer. In the two games were I attacked the front, I thought based on the fast robo and the upgrades I might have a time to do damage. In the third game, I didn't attack the front against the same build because I knew from the previous two it didn't work.
In the antiga game, I found myself significantly ahead but I didn't know what to do with that lead. My thought was that if I forced trades I could eventually wear him down. I don't have a very high win percentage against a protoss that gets to have and keep a third base. I think in the future I would play more passively with my lead, but I still wouldn't know what to do once I maxed out and had all the tech I wanted. How to I break them? Whats to stop the protoss from casually taking gold when they max out and turtling further? As they spread, defending drops becomes much harder. If you have a base or two up, the onus is on them to come out to you. Just stay outside his base pre spread out and ready to outconcave him with a drop or two daring him to meet you. He can't reliably tech switch with you having extra scans and more resources to race them that way so they have to come out for an allin. If he's really a baddie, after you get like 30 rax/15 starpoints 3-5 with reactors rest tech labs + fusion core, then make extra OCs and start sacing scvs ten at a time. So essentially try and contain him to three bases? This is my goal if I get ahead? I feel like even with a pre spread a max toss army, especially a max toss army that cut probes at like 50, is so strong. How do I make sure I win that fight or force a favorable trade? Don't always do one thing. Understand what each strat requires and risks. If a toss maxes out at 150 in army, he obv is allining and will not have any ability to sustain that attack. 1941 him. E.g., make it a multifront war where the push into the heartland will meet multiple walls of your troops. The farther away he goes from his base, the more vulnerable his own base is and the longer his reinforcement line is. And his reproduction capability is very limited. No offense, but 1941'ing the futuristic race that can build units anywhere on the map is not a good idea. They can instant reinforce, and instant build defenses where they please. At the same time, its very difficult to scout someone who does a reduced worker count build.
My response was a specific response to a specific game scenario. e.g. 2 base allin, refusing to third where you setup your third but have slightly weaker army.
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EPT
