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On February 25 2012 05:33 roymarthyup wrote:
i think terrran needs to try doing this against toss
stop at about 10 marines, and make EVERYTHING ELSE marauders. and in battle, DONT EVEN BRING YOUR MARINES. just keep them at your base defending whatever dropship harassment the toss is probably trying
think about it lol. if you got pure mass 3/3 marauders, thats probably your best hope at stopping the zealot gayness. i know its a old idea... but its probably the only thing that works
dont even get ghosts, just pure 3/3 marauder and you can kite while being more tanky against storms and pull back to planetary fortresses when you need to heal your army and be covered
im thinking something like 7 vikings, 10 marines, 8 medivacs, everything else marauders. if the enemy has 3 collossi, you want 10 vikings. 4 collossi, 13 vikings. 5 collossi, 16 vikings. 6 collossi or more, 18 vikings and thats the max stop at getting any more.
Do not let your vikings hover over archons because archon splash rapes vikings too hard
mass pure maraurders, nothing else. dont even get ghosts. thats your only hope against toss
i guess slowly, slowly, slowly, you can turn lategame gas into battlecruisers. thats an option of something to spend your gas on. other than that, pure marauders
chargelots murder pure marauders.
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On February 25 2012 08:04 zhurai wrote:
chargelots murder pure marauders.
not with proper positioning and kiting.
also you can always get some blue flame hellions behind the marauders to roast zealots quickly.
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On February 25 2012 07:53 meadbert wrote:
I do not understand the complaints about Protoss insta-remaxing their deathball.
It's the strength of the Protoss units themselves that makes it seem like that.
e.g.
1. Just one Colossus requires more than one viking
2. One zealot feels like a counter needs 4 marines
etc...
Another example is, Hellions would seem like a good idea against zealots and High Templars, but the time it takes to build factories and get those out feels almost impossible.
Toss dictates so firmly the required Terran composition, and this composition just takes a long time to get (it feels like a 4-to-1 ratio, in favor of Toss).
Also, ideally, a Terran also would need fewer SCV's to allow for more supply, but that's not possible either.
This makes me wonder what the SC2 architects actually intended when they imagined Toss vs. Terran in the late game. I'll bet they thought aboout lots of PDD's, and some Nukes.
Did they imagine Terran as "turtling" and weathering the attacks of Toss until a widely diverse composition was built?
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Of course you need more than 1 viking per collosus, but that's fine, colossi are 6 supply each, vikings only 2. So you can have 3 per colossus, although personally I find that too many.
In open ground zealots need more than 2 marines, but in a choke where the zealots surface area is restricted they are doing much much less damage. Plus you should have EMPed them so they die faster.
A terran should have less worker supply as terran has MULEs, so you can have a larger army.
The standard composition works just fine late game, although possibly there will be better options in HotS.
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aLive vs Genius g1 :aLive dominated genius micro and macro wise during the entire game, to the point where he had a 25 supply lead and genius had only zealots and an archon on the field, but still, aLive couldn't capitalize (same happened multiple times in multiple games @jjakji vs parting), genius on the other hand, barely won a battle, got a 15 supply lead, and the game was 100% over, regardless of alive's 21 barracks, the fact that you have to rally the units makes warpgates 10000³³³² times better in the late game.
I'm not gonna comment much further on his other games that involved, according to Tastosis (their protoss bias is getting way out of hand), perfect play, but let's just say that he won using a void ray allin by attacking with stalkers at the front, losing one before he even reached the bunker, then again he had some perfect micro, i.e pulled 2 huge units with huge hp/energy pool back, nerd chills all over ma body.
Point being, no it's not possible, try some form of allin.
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Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
I am getting a lot of advice about how to play the matchup from a macro standpoint, but frankly it doesn't make sense to me. I know this deep into a thread I am unlikely to get a good response but I will try anway: my goals early game it to get out fast medivacs and drop, so I can keep protoss in their base and deny the third for as long as possible. I need to do this while simultaneously taking my third base, keeping up on upgrades, and getting ghost tech out. In the mean time, I need to be altering my production to match whatever composition the protoss is going for. Eventually the protoss should be able to take their 3rd base, so I need to cash in on being ahead from my dropping by taking my fourth base, and maxing out soon. Once maxed, I should start making orbital commands and pull a bunch of scvs to attack protoss as they take their fourth base. This will allow me, if controlled correctly, to force protoss to remax and give me the opportunity to "super max". From there I need to set up fortified positions and try and win an engagement with protoss at least 1 more time, dropping with my extra units afforded from sacrificing scvs as a do so, until I can eventually whittle the protoss down to nothing. Did I get all that? The problem I have with this kind of mentality for TvP, is that it literally requires me to make essentially no mistakes, and it requires protoss to engage into a planetary fortress and a fortified position in order for me to win. Is their something I am missing here? This sounds like theorcrafting more then practical strategy. I can't think of any other matchup in starcraft II that requires these many prerequisites for one race to win over another. If this is what terran needs to do in order to win a macro TvP, then that I what I am going to try and practice, but I would like to believe there is an easier and more direct way. Preferably a way where I can dictate at least somewhat the pace of the game for protoss. Or put them in a position where they have to attack more or be at a disadvantage. I can do this in other matchups; leverage an advantage either with aggression or macro, but I don't see the opportunity to do that in tvp.
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Kill sequence late game (4+ base) is:
Have 55 SCVs, drop 30 food of units, either split 30/0, 10/20 or 10/10/10 across vulnerable locations.
Protoss either attacks into you, where you are camping with all your ghosts+vikings, or he splits and pulls his army back. Take his position. If he clears fast enough, then reset and redo. If he struggles, then move up into the next position close to an expo, and provoke the fight there.
Only fight in position where you can negate zeal damage (your tech units can negate his AOE).
It's a lot of work, and yes it is impossible to win a straight up fight. It all comes down to your drops doing actual damage, since your main army is only capable of trading evenly.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 25 2012 07:53 meadbert wrote:
I do not understand the complaints about Protoss insta-remaxing their deathball. That really only works for one unit and it is their tier one unit.
Warp does not work for Stargate and Robo units or for Archons.
DT's are admittedly scary, but I do not believe this thread is focused towards those.
Toss could remax Stalkers, but they are so bad in the late game that there is no point.
Warping in low energy Sentries is pointless.
High Templars must wait to get enough energy for storm making them about 10 seconds slower than Ghosts.
The only advantage is that Zealots shows up 20 seconds before Marines, but in order to make use of those Zealots Protoss must engage near Terran's base where any sort of wall can hold off the melee units.
The Protoss is challenged by the fact that EMPs will show up after 40 seconds, while the counter, Colossus, can only reach Terran base after 105 seconds (assuming a 30 second walk which is quite short).
In practice if there was truly an even trade in the first battle, it is tough for Protoss to do damage with Zealots.
Where the Warp In of Zealots is strong is after Protoss won the first engagement. Basically from there a round of Zealots insta waprs in and Protoss can finish the game off more quickly than would have been otherwise possible.
This is a case of "win more" where the Zealots did not turn the tide of the game, but merely accelerated the already determined outcome.
If you as a Terran lose your army, but Protoss still has a few Colossus left and maybe a storm or 2, then it was the original engagement that lost you the game. It was not the reinforcing Zealots.
You can actually warp in archons, kind of.
Also if terran wins a lategame battle with a handful of units left over, terran can't attack. If protoss wins a battle with a handful of units left over, protoss can cause some severe damage. That's the main thing people dislike, I think. (at least, it's the main thing I dislike).
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Biggest weakness w/ Macro Terran players is they don't understand what it means to play "low mineral" - as IM_MVP puts it.
Your race is godly on low mineral count, weaker on high, so intuitively this means you need to be forcing trades constantly, if you want to sit back and macro up 200/200 go play zerg.
If you want to beat your opponent the "Terran" way - always keep the pressure on until your opponent crumbles. I don't know how I am able to beat Master P's when I off race as Terran despite not knowing what the shortcut key for a viking is (I suck at P as it is, I suck 10x worse at T, but i understand a simple concept - throw everything at your opponent and see what sticks is way better than seeing who can get up to 3 base, 3/3, 200/200, and both tech routes faster).
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On February 25 2012 11:40 R!! wrote:
aLive vs Genius g1 :aLive dominated genius micro and macro wise during the entire game, to the point where he had a 25 supply lead and genius had only zealots and an archon on the field, but still, aLive couldn't capitalize (same happened multiple times in multiple games @jjakji vs parting), genius on the other hand, barely won a battle, got a 15 supply lead, and the game was 100% over, regardless of alive's 21 barracks, the fact that you have to rally the units makes warpgates 10000³³³² times better in the late game.
I'm not gonna comment much further on his other games that involved, according to Tastosis (their protoss bias is getting way out of hand), perfect play, but let's just say that he won using a void ray allin by attacking with stalkers at the front, losing one before he even reached the bunker, then again he had some perfect micro, i.e pulled 2 huge units with huge hp/energy pool back, nerd chills all over ma body.
Point being, no it's not possible, try some form of allin.
I think Gumiho's TvP is way better, and Alive's play in general was lackluster. There was nothing impressive about the understanding he showed us.
1. He took a stupid fight in the middle of the map, for no reason. This comes back down to T feeling like they should attack into P. Nothing could be more wrong. The aggressor is always at a disadvantage, especially when you rely on reactionary tactics with ghosts.
2. Vs a hypothetically perfectly executed VR, I don't think bio/up builds work. If they do work, 100% you will have to lift into your main base. Because if you try to hold 2 positions, the VR will simply split your forces, FF the ramp, and then kill your lower base. Personally I think T needs to skip TL ups, and get faster tech in general to deal with 1base and 2 base timings. Unfortunately, this struggles against 1base and 2 base blink, so I admit I'm at a loss at how to deal with early game.
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On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ.
If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks.
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On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
I am getting a lot of advice about how to play the matchup from a macro standpoint, but frankly it doesn't make sense to me. I know this deep into a thread I am unlikely to get a good response but I will try anway: my goals early game it to get out fast medivacs and drop, so I can keep protoss in their base and deny the third for as long as possible. I need to do this while simultaneously taking my third base, keeping up on upgrades, and getting ghost tech out. In the mean time, I need to be altering my production to match whatever composition the protoss is going for. Eventually the protoss should be able to take their 3rd base, so I need to cash in on being ahead from my dropping by taking my fourth base, and maxing out soon. Once maxed, I should start making orbital commands and pull a bunch of scvs to attack protoss as they take their fourth base. This will allow me, if controlled correctly, to force protoss to remax and give me the opportunity to "super max". From there I need to set up fortified positions and try and win an engagement with protoss at least 1 more time, dropping with my extra units afforded from sacrificing scvs as a do so, until I can eventually whittle the protoss down to nothing. Did I get all that? The problem I have with this kind of mentality for TvP, is that it literally requires me to make essentially no mistakes, and it requires protoss to engage into a planetary fortress and a fortified position in order for me to win. Is their something I am missing here? This sounds like theorcrafting more then practical strategy. I can't think of any other matchup in starcraft II that requires these many prerequisites for one race to win over another. If this is what terran needs to do in order to win a macro TvP, then that I what I am going to try and practice, but I would like to believe there is an easier and more direct way. Preferably a way where I can dictate at least somewhat the pace of the game for protoss. Or put them in a position where they have to attack more or be at a disadvantage. I can do this in other matchups; leverage an advantage either with aggression or macro, but I don't see the opportunity to do that in tvp.
Bolded part is wrong, if you are "ahead" in the TvP matchup to the point where you can deny a third, its extremely difficult for Protoss to beat you.
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On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks.
That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would.
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On February 25 2012 15:08 willyallthewei wrote:
Biggest weakness w/ Macro Terran players is they don't understand what it means to play "low mineral" - as IM_MVP puts it.
Your race is godly on low mineral count, weaker on high, so intuitively this means you need to be forcing trades constantly, if you want to sit back and macro up 200/200 go play zerg.
This mentality is broken.
People that spout this don't understand that builds+maps deeply affect what timings are possible. The reality is that there is no way to guarantee damage on a 3 base P. It all depends on T's build and P's build, and if there is asymmetry in which build is supposed to counter which.
T excels on low minerals. But to imagine getting there by somehow preventing 2 base P, from taking a 3rd base, and then a 4th base, that's not realistic. Especially when 3rds+4ths are very easy to take on many maps.
The way the low minerals applies is like this: you take the advantages that your build gives/doesn't give. And then you weather out the easy bases that the P can hold. Until the P has to start taking far bases that he can't defend efficiently. BAM now you're back down to 2 base.
You can't deny the first 3-4 bases on most maps. But you can certainly do so on the next few bases.
One significant advantage that TvP has over TvZ is that the P army doesn't get more dangerous with more bank. Warpins can be negated with terrain. More archons can be negated by ghost+energy accumulation. Colo can be hardcountered and are vulnerable. Unlike Z, P is unable to immediately convert it all into tech units. So time is on your side, the only thing you need is position.
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On February 25 2012 15:14 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
I am getting a lot of advice about how to play the matchup from a macro standpoint, but frankly it doesn't make sense to me. I know this deep into a thread I am unlikely to get a good response but I will try anway: my goals early game it to get out fast medivacs and drop, so I can keep protoss in their base and deny the third for as long as possible. I need to do this while simultaneously taking my third base, keeping up on upgrades, and getting ghost tech out. In the mean time, I need to be altering my production to match whatever composition the protoss is going for. Eventually the protoss should be able to take their 3rd base, so I need to cash in on being ahead from my dropping by taking my fourth base, and maxing out soon. Once maxed, I should start making orbital commands and pull a bunch of scvs to attack protoss as they take their fourth base. This will allow me, if controlled correctly, to force protoss to remax and give me the opportunity to "super max". From there I need to set up fortified positions and try and win an engagement with protoss at least 1 more time, dropping with my extra units afforded from sacrificing scvs as a do so, until I can eventually whittle the protoss down to nothing. Did I get all that? The problem I have with this kind of mentality for TvP, is that it literally requires me to make essentially no mistakes, and it requires protoss to engage into a planetary fortress and a fortified position in order for me to win. Is their something I am missing here? This sounds like theorcrafting more then practical strategy. I can't think of any other matchup in starcraft II that requires these many prerequisites for one race to win over another. If this is what terran needs to do in order to win a macro TvP, then that I what I am going to try and practice, but I would like to believe there is an easier and more direct way. Preferably a way where I can dictate at least somewhat the pace of the game for protoss. Or put them in a position where they have to attack more or be at a disadvantage. I can do this in other matchups; leverage an advantage either with aggression or macro, but I don't see the opportunity to do that in tvp.
Bolded part is wrong, if you are "ahead" in the TvP matchup to the point where you can deny a third, its extremely difficult for Protoss to beat you.
How do you deny a protoss third then? I haven't been able to do it. You have to be so far ahead that you an attack into a choke. You can try the drop in the main stem into the third trick. I have never been so far ahead in TvP, that I can put half my army in different places and come out ahead that way. I just have never been able to make that happen.
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On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would.
You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame.
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On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame.
You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable.
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On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable.
Terran aggression in the midgame is hard for Protoss to defend, especially if they're going for 3 bases before the Terran. May I ask what level you play at?
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On February 25 2012 15:43 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 15:36 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:29 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 15:16 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 25 2012 15:10 K3Nyy wrote:On February 25 2012 14:53 mothergoose729 wrote:
Lol R!!
The main problem I have with TvP, and maybe this is do to my lack of understanding or something, but I feel like there is no "kill sequence" in the matchup for terran. For instance, in marine tank TvT, if I deny my opponent their third, base then my "kill sequence" is to siege contain their natural and drop units in the back of their main over and over again. I have a clearly defined goal once I am ahead; contain and harrass. Similarily, in TvZ, if I deny zergs third base and don't lose a lot of units, my kill sequences is to return home, take a third faster then zerg, push out a few minutes later to kill the creep and probably go back home again, and then right about the time I am maxing out and securing my fourth base, push down zergs 4th base while droping their main and third. I get ahead by denying a base, this allows me to have map presence later to deny creap, which gives me the opportunity to push and win before teir 3. Kill sequence. In TvP, I don't know how to create a kill sequence without going at least somewhat all in first. I don't see the opportunity to outplay my opponent, I just annoy them and hope the get the much better end of an engagement late game.
Didn't read the other paragraph because the text is really clumped but I can tell you it's easier to kill a midgame Protoss in TvP as opposed to TvT and TvZ. If you have a clear advantage in TvP in terms of army size in the midgame, there's no way they can come back. TvZ, they can get lucky bling hits if you don't micro well and in TvT, you can always mess up with tank positioning and stuff. TvP, if you have a 20-30 supply lead midgame, you can literally stim and kill them. Also, referring to your last sentence, there's plenty of ways to outplay a Protoss midgame. Terrans have been winning TvP mostly in the midgame with drops or multipronged attacks. That's not true. You can't attack into protoss if they are camping in their base. They will just use their superior positioning, to get of the best money storms, force feilds, and or collossus hits possible. The best you can hope to do is attack protoss as they take anther base, because then they haven't set up fortifications. The problem is the third base on pretty much all the maps is really easy to defend, so that oppertunity doesn't really come up until protoss takes their 4th base. By then protoss can be maxed out, and have at least 7 or 8 gateways, if not 10+, with mixed tech and upgrades. I don't understand people who say "if you are ahead, just go kill them". Not meaning to be rude, but have any of these people ever actually played a TvP? If so I would LOVE to see those replays. No sarcasm, I genuinely would. Its also why I am fairly certain that terran's only opportunity to attack into protoss is to attack a protoss fourth base. Third bases on most maps are usually to difficult to attack into because of chokes. You said denying 3rd in your earlier post. In your last post, you're describing Protoss late game. If you have an advantage vs Protoss midgame by denying their 3rd or a few units for free, it's almost impossible to defend a Terran ball that's 20-30 supply ahead of them. Also, there's no way they'll have storms and Colo in the midgame. You don't deny a protoss third base using a drop focused strategy. If you do a straight push against protoss off two base, it is pretty much all in. I say that only because force feilds make any engagement at that stage extremely unforgiving. If their is an aggressive strategy for terran that can trade well with protoss on two base and isn't subject to being hardcountered, I would love to hear it. The only builds I know are Puma style marine ghost rushes and marine tank timings, both of which put you extremely far behind if they don't do serious damage or win outright. What you can do with a drop focused strategy, is delay the third base, or snipe it if your lucky. This gets you ahead but it doesn't kill many protoss units, so inevitably they get big enough to take the base. A protoss can easily afford upgades, collossus, and high templar, and a heathy gateway count off three bases. So they will get the opportunity to max out if they choose. When a protoss is maxed out a straight push into the main isn't an option with a terran army, the terran army just doesn't work very well attacking forward against a protoss army. Which is why the late game seems inevitable. Terran aggression in the midgame is hard for Protoss to defend, especially if they're going for 3 bases before the Terran. May I ask what level you play at?
Diamond. Its in the OP.
I have a problem with saying "aggression" but not qualifying it. What kind of aggression? How do you engage? How do you transition? How do you account for various protoss openings? These are all really important with an aggressive strategy. There needs to be a way with aggressive strategies to get ahead even if they can't kill many units. IE reactor hellion expand into two base marine tank timing is so good because I can choose to expand rather then attack if I see zerg playing to defensively.
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On February 25 2012 07:53 meadbert wrote:
I do not understand the complaints about Protoss insta-remaxing their deathball. That really only works for one unit and it is their tier one unit.
Warp does not work for Stargate and Robo units or for Archons.
DT's are admittedly scary, but I do not believe this thread is focused towards those.
Toss could remax Stalkers, but they are so bad in the late game that there is no point.
Warping in low energy Sentries is pointless.
High Templars must wait to get enough energy for storm making them about 10 seconds slower than Ghosts.
The only advantage is that Zealots shows up 20 seconds before Marines, but in order to make use of those Zealots Protoss must engage near Terran's base where any sort of wall can hold off the melee units.
The Protoss is challenged by the fact that EMPs will show up after 40 seconds, while the counter, Colossus, can only reach Terran base after 105 seconds (assuming a 30 second walk which is quite short).
In practice if there was truly an even trade in the first battle, it is tough for Protoss to do damage with Zealots.
Where the Warp In of Zealots is strong is after Protoss won the first engagement. Basically from there a round of Zealots insta waprs in and Protoss can finish the game off more quickly than would have been otherwise possible.
This is a case of "win more" where the Zealots did not turn the tide of the game, but merely accelerated the already determined outcome.
If you as a Terran lose your army, but Protoss still has a few Colossus left and maybe a storm or 2, then it was the original engagement that lost you the game. It was not the reinforcing Zealots.
Zealots and stalkers with charge and blink can easily chase down bio and medivac, even if toss loses their expensive units, they'll be able to instantly create 40+ supply of units right there, and chase down the medivacs, vikings, ghosts, and straggling bio units. Archons can be warped in pretty much instantly, and anywhere you have a power field.
Ghosts take way more than 40 seconds to be any sort of threat to protoss, as they have to rally down, and ghost are pretty darn slow. Protoss can get a storm wherever they want in less time and for less cost than terran can with an EMP.
Chronoboost makes robos produce twice as fast as starports, etc... Basically terran won't be able to engage for a good bit after a battle happens, even if the trade was even, meaning protoss can expand, threaten terran's expansions, do pretty much whatever they want for a little bit.
tl dr: you ignored the fact that terran units need to rally, and robos/stargates build twice as fast as starports.
Edit: here are a few replays showing how shitty protoss players will die only decently executed medivac pressure:
(I played these 4 games in a row on ladder last night, they were also on my stream)
http://drop.sc/119243
http://drop.sc/119242
http://drop.sc/119241
http://drop.sc/119240
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EPT
