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On February 21 2012 03:56 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Lategame engagements are really fucking hard. If the HTs get 1 good storm off you're probably going to lose, and if they get more than one storm off you will lose. You need more marines if he has more zealots, and more marauders if he has more stalkers. In diamond what you can do it engage his army, have your ghosts selected, and emp his ball of 10+ HTs as they try to walk in and storm your army. You need to have your vikings killing the colossi 1 at a time, and you need to kite your MM ball backwards from his zealot archon ball too. Before the engagement starts, you need to EMP his whole army, but save some emps for the templar because they usually lag behind.
After the engagement happens, they will usually reinforce with 10-15 zealots, at which point you will either outright lose or need to fall back. If you aren't dead yet, take your whole army and drop at his main and 4th. Since hes trying to mass up chargelot archon, you can force stalkers, which will help you in the next engagement. Snipe his 4th base and his robo if possible. If not,keep him contained and see what hes making so you can counter it in the next fight.
I can't beat protoss unless they really suck either =( luckily, most diamond protoss do suck.
I would recommend having a fall back point with friendly buildings to buffer you, also. Nothing messes with charglots more than enemy builds. They love to hit them, dance around them and get shot while doing it. The same goes for archons and they cannot shoot over a rax effectively. Also, if the protoss has to micro to get around the building, it breaks the charge animation and the zealots are back to be slow as dirt. They really punish a player who is just a-moving them forward.
Its like when protoss set up their HTs to cover them when they fall back. A lot of TvP is set up before hand.
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On February 21 2012 04:13 Josh_rakoons wrote:
Lol at diamond player saying that a matchup is impossible for macro games, if the best terran in the world says its impossible, then i will accept that there is something wrong with the game, anyone else, i don't see fit to complain about anything.
MMA has said a few times that TvP is extremely hard for Terran in its current state.
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Just accept that this game might not be meant to be played pure macro with maxed armies. I feel like each race has a point in the game where they have a distinct advantage, so recognize it and abuse it as much as possible. The way I play TvP is extremely aggressive all early and midgame. I prioritize denying protoss third base instead of taking my own third base. If I can't deny their third, then at least I will die trying rather than just accepting a late game TvP. Because that is idiotic.
Don't try to force the game into the little bubble of how you THINK it should be played. Play the game as it was designed, play the game the way terran pros play it, which is mostly aggressive two base timings against protoss.
Nothing I love as protoss more than seeing a terran turtle and try to take three or more bases against me. And I LOVE to see gasless expand! Easiest opening in the world to beat with protoss. Terran should always open with gas, just to keep the protoss in the dark and guessing. They don't know if it's reaper FE, 2rax FE, 3rax all in, 1-1-1 all in....
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On February 19 2012 18:45 Feverus wrote:
Stop.
Step back.
You're not playing against Puzzle, Genius, Parting, or Brown.
Let me repeat that. You are not playing against good players with excellent macro, tactics, and defense who only make some mistakes. You are playing against relatively atrocious players who fail at every single aspect of the game - and this also applies to the top NA GMs, let alone the diamonds you're matched with. Even if the matchup is broken, you can still win.
Just get calm and comfortable and improve your own play; try to fix some of the innumerable mistakes you find in it (if you can't find them, that's your first big problem).
Some thoughts based on watching game #20:
Your bunker feels late. I'm surprised you aren't losing lots of games to stalker pressure. High level players who go with a late bunker like that probably rely on micro to survive.
Hide your scv further away. Just because it doesn't get scouted most games by bad players doesn't mean you have found a good spot. You can't rely on just hoping throwing down 3 bunkers will stop whatever the P does when you have no idea what he's doing! With no info on him, you should have scanned.
At 8:20, you've let him bully you into staying on 3 raxes with 1 addon and your factory just barely started and no engineering bay. Your early economic lead is rendered impotent as he tears you apart; you were up workers, then a little later he has another 10 workers, is at 56 and and you haven't built any.
OH GOD. 7 vikings is not enough against 4 colossus. Try 12 or more. You need enough your vikings can kill colo without your bio getting butchered, and as you can clearly see that is not happening.
You're at 42 workers against 72! LKDFJSLDKJFSLDF.
That's a bit irrelevant. His opponents aren't playing MVP, MMA or Gumiho. The way ladder works is you will almost consistently be playing players with roughly equal macro abilities to you. According to the OP, he's been watching a vast amount of top level (including GSL) and hasn't been able to find a reliable TvP build to carry him into the late game. A lot of the new protoss all ins will out right kill you before you get a chance to macro or they will be able to safely out macro you. I think terrans from all skill levels are experiencing the same problem. Whether you are diamond or GM or a GSL champion, your chances of winning TvP decreases dramatically as the game drags on. You can work on macro and mechanics all you want but you will simply struggle against better Protoss players. What this guy is looking for is a reliable build that will allow him to play macro games instead of trying to execute hit or miss timings or all-ins.
I'm not sure there exists a wholly safe TvP opener. Every opening is susceptible to a multitude of all ins or will leave you severely behind in macro. The only "macro" build I've had any success with is Kas's 1 Rax FE build. Day9 did a daily about Kas' TvP opener which is a standard gasless 1 rax expo but you throw down a 3rd CC asap (before you add any more rax) and get 2 blind bunkers. I've found that if the protoss doesn't get wind of what you're up to you can at least stay even (possibly be ahead) in macro going into the late game. However, the problem still stands that once you get to the lategame, even if you're even in workers/bases, you are still going to have extreme difficulty comming out ahead or even in fights.
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On February 21 2012 04:27 liberal wrote:
Just accept that this game might not be meant to be played pure macro with maxed armies. I feel like each race has a point in the game where they have a distinct advantage, so recognize it and abuse it as much as possible. The way I play TvP is extremely aggressive all early and midgame. I prioritize denying protoss third base instead of taking my own third base. If I can't deny their third, then at least I will die trying rather than just accepting a late game TvP. Because that is idiotic.
Don't try to force the game into the little bubble of how you THINK it should be played. Play the game as it was designed, play the game the way terran pros play it, which is mostly aggressive two base timings against protoss.
Nothing I love as protoss more than seeing a terran turtle and try to take three or more bases against me. And I LOVE to see gasless expand! Easiest opening in the world to beat with protoss. Terran should always open with gas, just to keep the protoss in the dark and guessing. They don't know if it's reaper FE, 2rax FE, 3rax all in, 1-1-1 all in....
I agree. I get pretty pumped when I see no gas and know exactly what is coming, 1 rax FE or some dumb 3 rax non-sense. No need to worry about banshees, 2 rax agression, hellons or anything else that requires gas. And any terran that turtles and keeps their army at home is great. It far easier to prepare for drops and take a third when there is no threat of the terran kicking down your door.
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You guys tell me, shouldn't I have lost this game about 4-5 times?
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=comment_submit&id=254748
It's just very difficult (understatement) to ever kill a Protoss when they are doing a templar turtle style.
Honestly, bio+viking+ghost against a Protoss that has high apm+multi-task that uses warp prisms, turtles well, etc...I think we have to wait till Heart of the Swarm to get a cost effective army that we can get in lategame.
ghost mech/mech is theoretically stronger than bio viking ghost the problem is after the tank nerf accumulating tanks no longer became as effective as it was in brood war. And there is no easy way to simply transition into ghost mech after you have already maxed 200/200 on bio + viking + ghost.
Macro tvp games are tough, you have to use nukes, turtle well with planetary walls, and get enough ghosts/vikings with marines/marauder to not only kill 1 army of protoss, but kill their second and third army that they essentially get for free in lategame off of warp gates + a bankroll.
You definitely cannot ever attack if your ghosts do not have full energy, if you do not have the viking count, and if you already over stimmed. So you have to win a battle by a huge margin, and still have all of these things leftover in order to ever make any progress. And protoss will have templar back at home with lots of cannons allowing them another 2-3 deathballs anyways...so I would suggest transitioning into ghost + BC in the lategame after you trade away most of your bio. This requires you to turtle and build a bankroll the same way that protoss does though...and i know most Terrans are aggressive minded so most people are not even willing to try this transition  !
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As a protoss player, I feel pretty comfortable in the late game, but what hurts is hit squads of marauders going around the map picking off expansions - they crush buildings so fast, and if I am maxed out on supply I can't easily warp in to stop them. That means I have to split units off from my army, and get pulled around the map that way. Of course, it is difficult to to win in a straight up fight, particularly if the Protoss gets that really nice unit composition, but I would say good ghost use can help you trade more cost efficiently. Try not to engage in chokes and other areas susceptible to AoE damage.
Also, you can play a macro game while still putting on early pressure. Not all pressure needs to be intended to end the game, but simply causing the protoss to feel uncomfortable and build more (particularly gas heavy) units in the early and early-mid game really delays how easily they can get up all their tech and upgrades. So, you don't need to worry about only the late game itself, but how the game got to the late game.
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On February 21 2012 04:46 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
As a protoss player, I feel pretty comfortable in the late game, but what hurts is hit squads of marauders going around the map picking off expansions - they crush buildings so fast, and if I am maxed out on supply I can't easily warp in to stop them. That means I have to split units off from my army, and get pulled around the map that way. Of course, it is difficult to to win in a straight up fight, particularly if the Protoss gets that really nice unit composition, but I would say good ghost use can help you trade more cost efficiently. Try not to engage in chokes and other areas susceptible to AoE damage.
Also, you can play a macro game while still putting on early pressure. Not all pressure needs to be intended to end the game, but simply causing the protoss to feel uncomfortable and build more (particularly gas heavy) units in the early and early-mid game really delays how easily they can get up all their tech and upgrades. So, you don't need to worry about only the late game itself, but how the game got to the late game.
You should have about 10-15 supply open for warp-ins in the lategame. Otherwise you're not playing it as best as you could.
Also, the saying "never let it get to that point" no one should ever use on this forum or any other discussion because it's a terrible thought process. Because there are people that CAN consistently "get it to that point" because they all know that if they do then it's a free advantage for them.
"Don't let it get to that point" is like "don't let the sun come up in the morning." It's going to come up lol. And as people get better at the game, there should not be situations where "if it gets to that point" one race automatically has an advantage for no reason. THat's terrible game design, though that's a slightly different topic.
It just irks me when people say the "don't let it get there" as if they secretly know that if they just turtle and defend they always can get it there and that they feel they should be rewarded for simply getting to a certain stage in the game.
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What you are experiencing is what most Terrans are experiencing in the TvP matchup. I know that some people disagree but alot of us feel that Protoss has a easier time in the late game against Terran. This shows itself most of all in the leagues Diamond-Master, and it is due to too how the matchup plays out.
1. A TvP game is often decided with one major fight and the Protoss has the edge because of their Warpgate technology. If the Terran loses the fight then he simply cannot hold the flood that is the rest of the Protoss army because his units will spawn in different locations at different times and will just be killed off one by one.
2. In TvP the Terran player needs to react to what the Protoss player is doing. Collosi = Vikings, HT = Ghosts.
One of the harder timings is when the Protoss has opened with one off the two and then tech switches to the other aswell. We all know how hard it is too fight a Protoss Deathball with HT's, Collosi, Archons and Chargelots.
The key is for the Terran to have good scouting and react accordingly.
3. In the later stages of the game the terran player needs to kite and spread and it takes more effort then what the Protoss player needs to do. This is assuming the P player has a good amount of Chargelots that he can A-move in while he storms and does the other important micro. But he should, Zealots are basicly free in the lategame 
The Pro's can manage all this because they are Pro's and I'd say it looks balanced enough when i see them play, but people like us who are ''good'' at the game but no way near their level have a harder time. I guess you just need to hang in there and improve and you won't feel as lost.
I have too admit i kinda took the cowards road and stopped playing on my T account. I now play Random, less stressful and I have no need to rage about balance ^^.
Guess I should chip in some tips to.
Use cloaked ghosts, if the Protoss makes the mistake to not have a observer over his army you can end the game right there if your armies are similiar. You can scan over the army before you go in.
Use alot of Drops, try to focus down his forges. If you can have a upgrade advantage it is BIG!
Anyways I don't know if i really helped you much, but hang in there buddy. Your not alone 
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As an ex gm and currently top Masters, for the past year my TvP has been not letting Protoss get to the late game. Keep engagements often, and constantly attack, and either kill him off or prevent him from achieving a complete late game economy/army.
"if Protoss gets 3/3, you should just leave the game" - DDE, at a local lan
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On February 21 2012 05:02 ZiegFeld wrote:
As an ex gm and currently top Masters, for the past year my TvP has been not letting Protoss get to the late game. Keep engagements often, and constantly attack, and either kill him off or prevent him from achieving a complete late game economy/army.
"if Protoss gets 3/3, you should just leave the game" - DDE, at a local lan
I pretty much leave the game once I see a 3rd that I can't snipe/engage. For me, right now, TvP feels like TvZ did early last year. You do an early 1base timing as the opponent fast expands. Once the expansion stays you pressure some more as you get a late expansion and hope your constant aggression translates into you denying third bases. Then once a 3rd base lands and sticks you should have your strong timing push ready and you engage main army vs main army and hope your army wins.
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I throw away games in tvp like there is no tomorrow. http://drop.sc/116271
I suck ass, I suck at army composition because I spend too little time building the correct units yet I just feel it's so much harder to control your late game army than as a protoss. I always get myself into decent situations then I do dumb shit and instantly lose. everygame (
TvP in macro games like last 20 games I probably have 10% win rate, only win if the protoss decides to do some cheese shit.
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Here's how you play TvP late game.
1. Cut SCVs at 55, only OC's after that, to 5+ OC.
****2. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT: Only engage in favorable positions. Don't EVER engage on open ground unless you are extremely ahead. Always be at a choke, wedge, or simcity such that zealot attack area is significantly reduced.
3. Here's the myth: proper spreading and stuttering wins fights. This is NOT true, this is WHY you are losing the 200 fights. While there are specific scenarios where you stutter+spread against HT/colo, you don't win 200 fights this way IN THE OPEN. No amount of spreading + stuttering solves the mathematical fact that 3/3 chargelot is way too efficient to kill in time in the open.
Engagements are 100% about reducing AOE damage (through your ranged counters, and appropriate micro if necessary) but MORE IMPORTANTLY reducing zeal efficiency.
4. And here's how you win: same as TvZ late game - starve them out. You have +20 food from MULES, so that means you have 20-30 food on the map constantly in dropships. He has warpins. Your goal is to displace his warpins and his army eventually. Either he attacks into your position, where you are simcitied. OR he is forced to pull his army out of position to deal with your drop AND you reposition in favorable location near him and force a fight there. Rinse and repeat until he can no longer hold the outer expos.
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On February 21 2012 04:45 avilo wrote:You guys tell me, shouldn't I have lost this game about 4-5 times? http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=comment_submit&id=254748It's just very difficult (understatement) to ever kill a Protoss when they are doing a templar turtle style. Honestly, bio+viking+ghost against a Protoss that has high apm+multi-task that uses warp prisms, turtles well, etc...I think we have to wait till Heart of the Swarm to get a cost effective army that we can get in lategame. ghost mech/mech is theoretically stronger than bio viking ghost the problem is after the tank nerf accumulating tanks no longer became as effective as it was in brood war. And there is no easy way to simply transition into ghost mech after you have already maxed 200/200 on bio + viking + ghost. Macro tvp games are tough, you have to use nukes, turtle well with planetary walls, and get enough ghosts/vikings with marines/marauder to not only kill 1 army of protoss, but kill their second and third army that they essentially get for free in lategame off of warp gates + a bankroll. You definitely cannot ever attack if your ghosts do not have full energy, if you do not have the viking count, and if you already over stimmed. So you have to win a battle by a huge margin, and still have all of these things leftover in order to ever make any progress. And protoss will have templar back at home with lots of cannons allowing them another 2-3 deathballs anyways...so I would suggest transitioning into ghost + BC in the lategame after you trade away most of your bio. This requires you to turtle and build a bankroll the same way that protoss does though...and i know most Terrans are aggressive minded so most people are not even willing to try this transition !
What exactly is your method of doing the BC tech switch? Is it always a very late game transition after you already have 4-6 bases established? Like when do you start making the starport/techlabs and Fusion core? I guess it's probably not really a concrete timing but just when you have the money/stability?
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I had a mammoth TvP training period from October 2011-December 2011. I only played TvP, trying countless builds.
What I found out, that worked for me:
You need to 1 rax expand, (with or without gas), and you need to keep the pressure non-stop. Don't ever let the Protoss alone.
Keep trading armies, dropping, hit and run.
But yes, I share the same feeling with a lot of Terrans that once Protoss gets 4 bases, the chances of a win a hugely reduced.
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this is not a particularly profound post ^_^ but as Protoss I have had trouble dealing with aggressive mech. I think that may just be due to having no prior experience with it and with me expecting that mech is a passive style. Just my two cents :D however what I think you should take from this is that interesting new strats may be able to get you some wins on ladder until some pros figure out macro TvP
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United States7483 Posts
On February 21 2012 04:23 Edso wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 04:13 Josh_rakoons wrote:
Lol at diamond player saying that a matchup is impossible for macro games, if the best terran in the world says its impossible, then i will accept that there is something wrong with the game, anyone else, i don't see fit to complain about anything. MMA has said a few times that TvP is extremely hard for Terran in its current state.
Yeah, it's his worst matchup. Some other terrans have an extraordinarily good record vs. Protoss. Everyone has a weak matchup. MMA's strength is his TvZ, his TvT is pretty decent too (although Alive made it look silly).
Each matchup requires a different thought process than the others, TvP is played quite differently from TvZ and TvT, and it's important to think differently. If you're having trouble beating Protoss in the late game, it's probably because you're letting Protoss play too greedy in the early-mid game without playing greedy yourself. Hint: If Protoss is 1 gate expanding (or nexus first) into powering tech with no units at all, you'd better be going ultra fast tech yourself or taking a really fast third, or else he'll be ahead in the mid-game, which takes away a lot of the potency of mid-game aggression that terran wants to do. I understand that heavy gateway timing attacks and immortal busts are scary to terran, so learn to scout for those specific things and react appropriately (there are key hints as to what is coming). If you get into the late-game and Protoss has a lead, well yeah, things are going to be tough on terrran, that's what it means to have a lead. The trick then, as Terran, is to react appropriately to how Protoss plays the early game: play slightly greedier than Protoss does, or be aggressive if toss gets very greedy. In the mid-game you want to be trading armies in split up engagements, bio is way more effective in small numbers vs. protoss in small numbers than it is in large numbers vs. large numbers: thus, mult-pronged aggression and drops. However, this is difficult when Protoss is already ahead because he got to power tech and economy at the same time, so you want to power those things yourself.
So many terrans are so used to dictating game flow that they've forgotten how to react to what they scout. I've lost track of the amount of times I've been going for a colossus midgame and terran is ghost rushing, without ever checking what I'm doing. Then he gets to my base and I laugh as he either runs or gets forcefielded in and killed.
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Not suprised to see Avilo in here at all aha.
Anyway, coming from someone only slightly above your level, the thing that really gets me when I'm playing vs Terran is constant dropping and observer sniping followed by cloaked ghost EMP's. As we've seen in many pro games (especially involving thorzain) he LOVES to snipe observers then just go to town with EMP's. That is really the hardest thing to deal with as Protoss in the late game, at our level anyway.
Good luck man, good to see such a well thought out post.
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I played some games today: vZ: 100% Winrate, vT ~40% winrate, vP 0% Winrate. Its always the same: I have like the same/little more supply than the protoss, but I get CRUSHED in the battles. And its not even lategame. Its a ~15min battle with ~70-120supply maybe.
TvP is soooo hard
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On February 21 2012 08:11 Aela wrote:I played some games today: vZ: 100% Winrate, vT ~40% winrate, vP 0% Winrate. Its always the same: I have like the same/little more supply than the protoss, but I get CRUSHED in the battles. And its not even lategame. Its a ~15min battle with ~70-120supply maybe. TvP is soooo hard
Well if you want specific advice you're going to have to post a replay.
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EPT
