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I'm going to just cut/paste a part of my post from the recent build posted by iTzSnypah ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=313672 ) because I saw this thread and thought it fit my rant better :D
Anyway, Dia T, EU server, not that it matters but for what it's worth;
I feel that a better option than taking fast bases at this point is to try and kill the Toss a bit earlier in the midgame with a very very strong, almost an all-innish army like Grobyc's 1rax FE > 3rax (1 tech 2 react) with mass Marines and 2-4 Medivacs, maybe 1 or 2 Marauders. If you go for a that fast a 3rd the Toss can take one as well and then just proceed to the lategame where he rolls you easily.
I've also been experimenting with a "Sauron Terran" style lately, adjusted StimmedProbe's Million Man Marine to a Reaper FE -> mass Rax -> endless waves of progressively better upgraded Marines starting from like the 9:45 minute mark, it's been working great actually and the Toss rage when they lose to pure mass Marines is warming my heart :D
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I don't like 1rax FE. Either take 1rax double CC for a really good economy or go for a pressure build like 2rax, all depending on map. Either way, force them behind early on, 2 bases for both isn't that good for you.
I also think that a ghostmech composition can demolish a Protoss army completely one-sidedly. EMP'd Immortals are quite funny as they die like flies to the colossal DPS of the mech army. The ideal way to get here would be using BF hellion drop harass, drive-by's, banshee harass and nuke attacks, maybe. Just getting the ideal composition seems to always be the problem what with Blink Stalkers and WP harass.
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Ok, what I have found out about TvP, is that it is possible to win in a macro game (I'm a mid diamond NA player, but I beat high diamonds and I play exclusively against my masters practice partners tbh and I don't ladder much lol), but you have to take risks.
What I mean by this, is that you have to do some big plays. TvP, Terran won't win straight up 9/10 times. Try to find some way to get an advantage. Start +1 at 6 minutes, go 1 rax double FE (actually, do this if he opens 1 gate FE ---> 3 gate robo or just 1 gate FE), go early drops, or just go for some random thing like a hidden expansion (I don't really recommend this lol). You need to do something to get ahead. If you can macro well, and by macro well, I don't care if your money is "low" if you don't have good/perfect worker production for the first 12 minutes, you need to take advantage of a higher income than the protoss. Try to get maxed earlier.
Now when you engage, it can seem like a nightmare. You might not know how to engage properly, you might get chargelot'd and just die, but here's what I learn. Just take 1/3rd of your army and move it to one side. Take another third of your army, and do the same thing. Stim and amove forward. You have just created a concave my friend! Now, just move one group back until charge wears off (try to do this so that another one of the groups is still firing at the chargelots) and
your stutter stepping is much easier now..
Also, if you ever want any help in game, feel free to add me:
MtlGuitarist #626
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try checking protoss vods instead of terrans, you will see that at times they are very vulnerable, they cant get tech and army at the same time early on, if they go many gates they cant get hts or collosus fast, try checking protosses replays/vods maybe it would help?
Have you ever tried maurader expand? Lately it increased my win rate a lot. Just drop 1 rax with techlab, get 2 mauraders and concusive shell, get 2-3 scvs and go to protoss expo (rally mauraders to his base) - if he goes nexus first hes dead and if he goes 1 gate expo try to drop bunker near his expo and kill it while getting your own.
I myself think that lategame tvp is really hard if you can't do damage from the start (like killing probes with drops, sniping tech or denying expos) it helped me when I understood that protoss army is not that scary at all, dont be afraid to run around the map poke at certain points just try to feel comfortable and not wait for certain death.
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. I will drop the main and the third base and try and keep protoss busy while I take my third base. Often times I am able to get my third up faster then protoss, sometimes significantly faster then protoss
This makes no sense unless i suppose your actually able to snipe the 3rd? lol buttt as a protoss player i say freakin transition! I've seen terrans go for mmm with 3-4 vikings all game, if i see this (and i will with observer) i'm just gonna death ball 1a you know? Get ghosts and cloak hit and run with emp make my templar/sentries useless and i (think don't down me if this is wrong i don't play terran) that 3 viking per col is the correct number. Scout scout scout it's possible believe me  more than a few terrans have destroyed me on ladder (high diamond player here)
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The problem with TvP is that if you fight 200 vs 200 and come out even, you are actually behind. This is because as your units are killed off you then have to que more while he has the convenience of immediately warping in, making you one round of units behind. Once you get on to the three bases, never stop dropping and never ever miss replenishment of your units through barracks production. The key to Bio is exchanging before you are maxed, a lot of people just do not understand this.
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The key idea is to keep the Toss on their toes, while you get more ahead. You cannot go in for the killing blow against a late game Protoss. You literally have to starve them. Which should happen after 3-4 rounds of trading that goes into your favor.
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I disagree that 3CC isn't safe. It isn't safe ALL THE TIME, of course.
If your opponent is getting a quickish expand himself, it's safe (FFE or even 3G expand).
If the map is huge, and / or he has not spawned close, it's safe (Tel Darim or cross positions Antiga).
If your natural is really really defendable, it's safe (Shakuras, even Shattered).
Otherwise, cut the 3rd CC and put down bunkers and rax when you scout a contraindication.
Really all you're scared of is 3G Immortal all-in (as it raeps bunkers), or 4G in close positions (as it just comes too fast to have enough). Nothing else you can't hold with ultra greed. Cute cheese like DTs and stuff gets shut down hard, since you have 3 scans for detection and scouting. Anything later than 8-9 mins is disadvantageous to the protoss since you out eco him.
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I don't get why there are this many threads about this topic. TvP is my best mu and I know for a fact that a properly controlled terran max should never lose to a protoss max. I would go into more depth but I've posted in enough of these threads recently that I'm tired of repeating myself. Anyone having specific questions can pm me if they want to. Highmaster/gm player on Na, masters on korea.
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I've just started playing around with EmpireKas early 3rd expo build showed in Day8 daily 399. It's having good success so far at least in Diamond.
Depot
Rax
OC
Depot
CC at natural
CC in base
2 Rax
1 Refinary
Tech Lab with Stim
2 more Refinarys
Factory - Reactor on Rax #2, Tech Lab on Rax #3
4th Refinary
Reactor on Factory, research Combat Shield and CC when stim finishes
EBay
Eh might not be spot on but it's what I remember off the top of my head. Pressure at 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 upgrades
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I don't know, the only way I can win against protoss is when they're terrible, even in the games I've won I've lost 1.5x-2x recourses as much as protoss.
I TRY to attack earlier but I can't do anything if they sit behind their ramp on entombed, cloud kingdom, antiga or tal'darim. I stay down the ramp/choke, nothing happens, go up, get forcefielded and die.
I know it's whining and bitching and my fault but I don't think I've won a TvP in wich the protoss wasn't terrible.
If anyone has some replays in wich the they went 3 base turtle 3/3 deathball style, I'd love to see them.
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I dont have much to add, except the advice here is really good and other than that you could check out Ls's TvP 40min vLog. He talks about using mass cloaked ghosts to kill colossus. (He's a pro-gamer living in Korea.)
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On February 21 2012 01:48 DaemonX wrote:
I disagree that 3CC isn't safe. It isn't safe ALL THE TIME, of course.
If your opponent is getting a quickish expand himself, it's safe (FFE or even 3G expand).
If the map is huge, and / or he has not spawned close, it's safe (Tel Darim or cross positions Antiga).
If your natural is really really defendable, it's safe (Shakuras, even Shattered).
Otherwise, cut the 3rd CC and put down bunkers and rax when you scout a contraindication.
Really all you're scared of is 3G Immortal all-in (as it raeps bunkers), or 4G in close positions (as it just comes too fast to have enough). Nothing else you can't hold with ultra greed. Cute cheese like DTs and stuff gets shut down hard, since you have 3 scans for detection and scouting. Anything later than 8-9 mins is disadvantageous to the protoss since you out eco him.
FFE PvT??
It's possible to hold 4gate with 3 CC, not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure you can hold 1 base immortal with 3 CC also. The 2 builds that definitely kill it is 4gate warp prism and blink stalker.
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Just a diamond protoss here.
Anyway, the whole point of the deathball is to mass enough aoe damage to take down bio quickly while still being able to protect your colossi and high templars from vikings/ghosts. Assuming that you have gotten to the late "macro" stages, you have plenty of add-ons available, so take that one factory that you don't use and build thors. Yup, thors. 1 Thor is big enough to eat a whole storm, tank a ton of damage from colossi (it's big enough to take all of 1 collossus aoe shot), and still do decent damage. This decent damage can be great damage if upgraded, but I know that's tough. And if you get more than 1 thor, it pretty much forces P to use his robo-build time on immortals, which ultimately reduces the amount of colossi out, making your bio more effective. Thor too slow? Put it in one of your 8 empty medivacs you have with your army?
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On February 21 2012 03:08 ampson wrote:
Just a diamond protoss here.
Anyway, the whole point of the deathball is to mass enough aoe damage to take down bio quickly while still being able to protect your colossi and high templars from vikings/ghosts. Assuming that you have gotten to the late "macro" stages, you have plenty of add-ons available, so take that one factory that you don't use and build thors. Yup, thors. 1 Thor is big enough to eat a whole storm, tank a ton of damage from colossi (it's big enough to take all of 1 collossus aoe shot), and still do decent damage. This decent damage can be great damage if upgraded, but I know that's tough. And if you get more than 1 thor, it pretty much forces P to use his robo-build time on immortals, which ultimately reduces the amount of colossi out, making your bio more effective. Thor too slow? Put it in one of your 8 empty medivacs you have with your army?
Yea then the unupgraded Thor gets swarmed by zealots 3/3/3 zealots, o wait we should pick it up with one of our 8 medivacs you say? Terran already has to much to do in terms of preparing for the fight, keeping marauders in front, splitting the marines, getting the vikings a good angle, trying to find a invisible floating orb and making sure all there HT have no storms after EMP, all of which needs to be done in quick succession and now you want us to micro manage a useless thor?
Why do they need immortals, Zealots will easily rip apart Thors.
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As a protoss, I fear drops when after I have taken my third base. Really good terrans keep one or two medi vacs in reserve and wait until they see me warp in or force a fight. A lot of time, Protoss are forced to rely on warp ins to midigate the damage from drops in the late game. Without this, you can run around for a while before they get forces up there. By that time, the nexus could be destroyed.
Also, remember to scale your drops. It only takes 5 gates to match the supply of a single, full medivac. Most protoss have that by 2 bases or earlier.
Also, defensive nukes are a bitch. Late game cloaked ghosts are amazing and nukes can take up a lot of the protoss's time, since there is the risk of losing their entire army if they are sloppy. It gives you some breathing room.
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Lategame engagements are really fucking hard. If the HTs get 1 good storm off you're probably going to lose, and if they get more than one storm off you will lose. You need more marines if he has more zealots, and more marauders if he has more stalkers. In diamond what you can do it engage his army, have your ghosts selected, and emp his ball of 10+ HTs as they try to walk in and storm your army. You need to have your vikings killing the colossi 1 at a time, and you need to kite your MM ball backwards from his zealot archon ball too. Before the engagement starts, you need to EMP his whole army, but save some emps for the templar because they usually lag behind.
After the engagement happens, they will usually reinforce with 10-15 zealots, at which point you will either outright lose or need to fall back. If you aren't dead yet, take your whole army and drop at his main and 4th. Since hes trying to mass up chargelot archon, you can force stalkers, which will help you in the next engagement. Snipe his 4th base and his robo if possible. If not,keep him contained and see what hes making so you can counter it in the next fight.
I can't beat protoss unless they really suck either =( luckily, most diamond protoss do suck.
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My only issue is that Terran are punished much more for mistakes in micro. If the Terran doesn't do well with the ghosts, Protoss can just shield up, spam storms, and just roll you with colossus and chargelots. Its unfortunate when it gets to the point where they are defended from drops due to cannon, ht or blink stalkers and your only option is really a direct engagement, hopefully in the open. But then again, I'm basically praying that he walks into my concave or let's me snipe his obs and walk cloaked ghost in for emp and snipes. I just get frustrated losing frequently to lesser players in this matchup. I know exactly what I do wrong, but if I botch my ghost micro, I'm basically screwed.
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Lol at diamond player saying that a matchup is impossible for macro games, if the best terran in the world says its impossible, then i will accept that there is something wrong with the game, anyone else, i don't see fit to complain about anything.
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EPT
