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I can only agree from watching a few games that you play with very little thought about what your actually doing.
Antiga shipyard 63
Things to improve on are
You can deduct more from seeing a 1 gate 1 gas build, you wont need a 2nd bunker this early and especially not a turret.
~6:00 you dont want to scan his main as theres a big chance hes hiding special tech or even gateways anyway. Seeing an expansion means theres not an imminent threat of an all in, and you can focus on getting more tech. Scout again later to see if its a 2 base timing.
2 tech lab 1 naked barracks is not the production you are looking for in a 2 base game especially not past 10 minutes. At least 4-5 barracks with addons.
Again, at 15 minutes on 3 base, your on the production you should have had 6 minutes ago.
You lose some drops when you attack into his main, that obviously shouldnt happen.
Your huge drop at 16:40 is works in this game because your so far ahead on units. This protoss played pretty poorly macro wise, so it worked better than it should. Next time try dropping 2-3 medivacs in his main to force his main army out of position and kill his 3rd. You dont need to Kill him to win, keep him on 2 bases and its practically a free win.
at 20:40 your so far ahead, you could basically do anything to win. You have 4000 minerals and 4000 gas, and could tech to battlecruiser, add 10 barracks, and not attack him.
at 24:00 you decide to attack him at the worst possible location, cornering yourself onto a small space where he has vision. Naturally storms are going to rape you hard, and your EMPs are slow and terrible. Just watch that engagement in 1/2 speed, and cry a little. 24:55 JUST EMP HIS ARMY FFS!!
Since you fail to do any EMPs or actually anything useful in that engagement you lose it terribly. it would have been better to stim and A move up his main ramp to be honest.
You keep taking expansions, but dont add production. In the end any advantage you get with your far superor economy you throw away by not beeing able to reeinforce.
25:00 Congratulations Youve got 5k / 5k in your bank as you lose the game and GG out.
The sad thing is, this game wasnt even over. You could have still come back from that point. Make vikings, and a lot of ghosts, and just fight at your planetary.
That game just made my eyes hurt. I want you to stop seeing pros lose games and tell yourself its imbalanced for terran. This game is 100% your fail - theres no balance fix short of removing storm that will make you win aweful engagements like that.
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A thing that i found great to do is do gasless 1 rack expand, into 5 rax (3 tech lab 2 reactor) with a reactor starport, then i do a pressure timing (forgot the exact time mark but you want to push whenever you get around 2-4 medivacs). I like to do a double drop at his main and pressure with my main army at his front. Now granted this does take practice and good use of control groups but after a while it gets easy and you can take games off pretty good players. basically you want to go wherever his stalkers aren't are in his main hit it fluster him, and then stim your main army and rape his front. It work VERRRRY well with my past experience. Its also good at scouting his unit comp as this will tell you if he's going for a colossus or high temp tech route. Either way this attack will usually do some damage, I never over commit and once I did my damage i either win or get out and expand to a third and either get ghost or another reactor starport depending on if its colossus or temps, and then dont forget your 2 ebays and armory once you take a third. Remember your marines and marauders are very mobile and you never have to over commit you can always stim and run away if you need to.
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Some general TvP help - macro game advice two thirds down
(My) 1 Rax Reaper Expo
Depot
Rax (Scout after this)
Marine
Depot (Build it with the final SCV before OC, rally it to where you want Depot)
OC (Make ONE SCV after this and send it to natural then temporarily halt SCVs)
Tech Lab
Reaper
CC @ natural
2nd Rax
Marauder + Conc. Shells (Resume SCV production at this point)
From there add a third rax, take your second gas and tech to reactored starport, grab stim on the way, don't put any add ons on the other two rax, just constant 'rines. You should be able to hit an AMAZING timing with the first two vacs that will hit before they get any splash damage against standard builds. I make a second reaper and generally try to get the first one killed after doing enough damage / scouting with it. Much like the spanish inquisition, no one expects the second reaper! (Send it to their main mineral line as you attack their natural - without being too offensive NA platinum multitasking shouldn't be too great and mine once got 17 kills as an EU at the time Diamond)
Main problems with this build :-
I don't wall off with it as I hate one base nonsense from Protoss where you basically donate them two depots and your only rax with a tech lab on it and as I scout after Rax if they do proxy double gate you're pretty fucked without perfect micro
Only one marine defending for a while can cause problems if they barrel the first zealot and chrono'd stalker up your ramp as it can get there before 'rauder on small maps. As they have both these units over here though your reaper should do good damage, if they only have a sentry at home then kill it, a reaper beats a sentry 1 on 1, and don't be afraid of pulling a few SCVs to get rid of their poke with these two units.
Expo in to DTs. As the build doesn't get detection then a non-obvious DT timing can cause havoc, my best tip is if you see double gas with your SCV and they still expand then make sure to keep your reaper alive and use it to scout more than harass as you really can't afford to always keep a scan saved with this build for the one time in twenty they go DTs as it's very tight on income/expenditure so you are behind the 19 times they don't go DTs.
Expo in to very early gateway pressure. This can be a nightmare, I scan the Protoss nat before attacking, if they haven't taken either gas just sit at home, do not attack, build a bunker or two. If they attack before you scan off something like halted probe 5 gate then just run to mineral line and fight with SCVs.
How to scout with this build:
With the first SCV you want to peek in, check gas and chrono and then leave before 4 mins and hide your SCV around their third or further away as more P players begin to check around third with a Stalker, can hang about to see if they chrono core/gateway after core finishes. As your Reaper goes in to their main have the SCV arrive at their natural shortly afterwards to check if they have an expo there, hide it behind their mineral line in they have no nexus or to make sure nexus completes if they do have one. Due to confusion of reaper the SCV can probably get in fine and at that level most P players won't re-check behind their minerals after dealing with Reaper. Below I will detail what you can scout with SCV (I don't include proxy 11/11 gate as there should be a more obvious way to note they're doing that in the form of zealots killing your shit)
Nexus first. Immediately build a bunker within range but hidden from site of the constructing nexus, if you haven't started the reaper then get a 'rauder instead. Get marine over there. You can choose to expo yourself and be a bit behind as you'll most likely not kill Nexus but can disrupt mining for a while / force a probe pull. Other option is to chuck down two more rax, bring a few SCVs along and make sure the Nexus dies. Obviously if it doesn't you've essentially lost.
Some early forge expo bullshit as he seems to think you're a zerg (I've played two EU Diamonds who did this recently they both said a pro P did this and won vs T). Forget about the expo, and yours, get your second gas, rush to reactored vacs, drop in their main, win the game, I honestly still don't know how this build is ever meant to win.
1 gas high chrono. 4 gate. If Reaper confirms this then float CC back to main after it's finished and get some bunkers up, can leave CC at natural if you'd rather defend there, but be prepped to pull all SCVs at nat to repair, get combat shields instead of stim. Cut SCVs if needed as you want constant rax production with this, along with getting the bunkers up. Get a few SCVs to repair, easy hold. From their just keep teching to medivacs as you've already won the game and you've basically got an a move in to win transition when they pop.
1 gas low chrono -> Probably fast expand. If reaper / scv scout combo confirms this then just keep playing standard and hit your timing as crisp as possible, if it's not an expo they're just doing a terrible variant of something else here.
2 gas. Here's where the P player can basically be doing anything, they can still expand relatively quickly, or an all in is coming, or any manner of crap proxied somewhere. If you scout two gas with SCV then use the reaper more for scouting than harass, don't just lose it for a probe kill. Coming up is a "what you scout with Reaper SCV after they went 2 gas"
-> Expo, phew, no awful all in - leave SCV to make sure it completes They should be getting at least three gates by this point along with some additional tech in either the form of a Robo, Council or something a bit off like Forge or Stargate. Can pretty much just go for the timing. If you aren't confident you know what they're doing try and keep Reaper alive and pop back in a bit from a different angle. Even seeing what kills it at the natural is useful info.
-> No Expo, 3 gate robo. Bunkers, combat shield not stim, I make 'rines instead of 'rauders from you tech labbed rax after you have enough marauders to fill bunkers but I still can't work out if this helps. Have SCVs on a hotkey ready to repair, get one marine / SCV at bottom of natural ramp so you'll have time to react. If they still haven't attacked for like a minute after their timing then could be they're going 1 base colossi so scan their main and make double viking once port finishes if they are. Timing is a bit tight but bunkers should buy you enough time. This is so all in so you just need to hold and win.
-> No Expo, 3 gates. This is either voids or DTs, the buildings may be built in the base or proxied somewhere, the fact there is only three gates and no robo is the clue. Float CC to main, get a turret at mineral line and at ramp, combat shields not stim, bunker at ramp. If the SCV finally sees them expo then you'll still be ahead of a DT expand economically so go back to trying to hit stim / 2 medivac timing as best you can, turret at natural choke, leave a few units when you attack / have them rallied there. Obvious save scans for when you do attack if it was DTs.
I'm not going to cover every possibility as anything else is sub-optimal. Just deal with it in the same way you would deal with the more optimal version of it or in the obvious way to dealing with it (build turrets for phoenix etc)
After the timing - bit most relevant
With the push at the front and the reaper you should know exactly what they're planning if you don't outright kill them, if you cripple them then get a decent army and push again. Check to make sure they haven't grabbed a third also.
Get yourself a third, combat shields, add two more rax, grab both natural gases, get the counter to their tech choice (vikings or ghosts). Get one engineering bay and add the second after third is taken (or faster if you scouted two forges). From this point engaging the Protoss army head on when it's prepared is difficult so only do it if you absolutely have to or know you should overwhelm them.
Instead go for drop play, get turrets to stop observers sitting over your army / dts walking in to your base. You'll want to be getting your fourth after you have a decent enough unit count of the thing that counters their initial splash damage tech choice. Always be adding rax and putting add ons on them, be looking to take the fifth / build extra OC's to sacrifice workers for supply.
If for whatever reason the P army is terribly out of position to protect one of their bases then kill it and get out, or kill it and then engage if the P player has managed their army terribly (1a'd it over to their fourth on Tal Darim for example)
Late game when you're both maxed you need to make sure you have at least two reactored ports, potentially a third one if they have three robos. Then you want a lot of rax, enough to remax ASAP but not so much that you waste your bank purely in making the barracks.
Maxed TvP engagements are all on army positioning and scouting their positioning. You need to know exactly where the P army is and especially the HTs. Try to ensure you have towers and scan the P army before engaging, never attack in to a P army if you can help it, try and drag them in to you. I really don't like sending cloaked ghosts in to EMP unless you 100% know they have no observer, and even then they can still storm the blurs. Anyway, when the engagement is 100% going to happen then scan, EMP the HTs and stim. Save one or two EMPs in case they bring HTs in that weren't part of the army. Land the vikings once the colossus die and stutter bio as best you can.
After landing the EMPs go to the rax and get the units bulding. I go for two thirds 'rauders, one third ghosts and then as many marines as you have reactored rax. What you build from starports depends on what dies in the battle so maybe just go with half Viking, half Medivac until battle ends. After that go back to army and keep stuttering.
If you win the fight and utterly crush them then go kill a mining base or whatever as you'll be able to beat the warp in reinforcements, then get your reinforcements together with main army and go kill another base / P army.
If you just about win the fight then I'd advise extreme caution before attacking in as a round of chargelots against hurt units and no medivac energy will be a massacre no matter how good your stutter step micro is. I'd advise waiting for one round of reinforcements and getting some MULEs / SCVs in to repair vacs and vikings before going and killing a mining base. Do not take in to account landed vikings as ground army, get them in the air straight after battle.
I don't like going in to the Protoss main / nat late game as to get in and get to the tech structures can end in utter disaster and inability to retreat as all your stuff dies. After a late game TvP big fight scan their robo(s). If you are caught short on Vikings and they made 3 more colossi you're in trouble. If they make Immortals then well, aren't they a complete shit.
About all I can come up with, zzzzzz
EDIT: Didn't mention dealing with an early blink / obs build. Maruaders good unit, bunkers good building, scan if you can guarantee an obs kill.
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On February 19 2012 18:45 Feverus wrote:
Stop.
Step back.
You're not playing against Puzzle, Genius, Parting, or Brown.
Let me repeat that. You are not playing against good players with excellent macro, tactics, and defense who only make some mistakes. You are playing against relatively atrocious players who fail at every single aspect of the game - and this also applies to the top NA GMs, let alone the diamonds you're matched with. Even if the matchup is broken, you can still win.
Just get calm and comfortable and improve your own play; try to fix some of the innumerable mistakes you find in it (if you can't find them, that's your first big problem).
This.
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One random thing: If you are dropping (big) and he wants to base race, kill in this order: Shrine > Core > Bay > Gateway > Robo > Nexus
The only exception is when he is mad chronoing a twilight council or something that might indicate a key tech is seconds away.
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I've talked with a lot of frustrated Terran practice partners, they all complain about this issue. However, I think its entirely possible to win macro games TvP, Terrans are just doing it wrong at the moment. There are two major errors Terrans make most of the time they play against me:
1) Not sacking scvs for more army in the late game. Terrans need to play TvP like they play TvT. Sacking around 40 scvs late game frees up a ton of army supply and will help a lot against a more cost efficient deathball.
2) Not using their air properly. Terrans seem to have gotten good at using emps, but they seem to have forgotten how to use their air. Vikings have 9 range, thats a lot. In fact its as much as the colossi. The way this game works is that the fundamentally less cost efficient race needs to have an advantage in battle in order to beat a more cost efficient race. Thats just common sense. TvP is a lot like ZvT, or ZvP. Terran has to get the concave, and use its vikings smartly in order to pick off or damage colossi before the battle even begins. All emps have to land, and the battle has to be a relative landslide in the Terrans favor, which, if all goes well, is 100% possible as long as the first thing Terrans are doing wrong is rectified. Additionally, I have NO IDEA why Terrans don't use the raven. PDD is SO GOOD against stalkers, and can help keep those vikings alive much longer than without using it.
Anyway thats my advice/things I see Terrans doing wrong most of the time.
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On February 20 2012 05:53 xlava wrote:
I've talked with a lot of frustrated Terran practice partners, they all complain about this issue. However, I think its entirely possible to win macro games TvP, Terrans are just doing it wrong at the moment. There are two major errors Terrans make most of the time they play against me:
1) Not sacking scvs for more army in the late game. Terrans need to play TvP like they play TvT. Sacking around 40 scvs late game frees up a ton of army supply and will help a lot against a more cost efficient deathball.
2) Not using their air properly. Terrans seem to have gotten good at using emps, but they seem to have forgotten how to use their air. Vikings have 9 range, thats a lot. In fact its as much as the colossi. The way this game works is that the fundamentally less cost efficient race needs to have an advantage in battle in order to beat a more cost efficient race. Thats just common sense. TvP is a lot like ZvT, or ZvP. Terran has to get the concave, and use its vikings smartly in order to pick off or damage colossi before the battle even begins. All emps have to land, and the battle has to be a relative landslide in the Terrans favor, which, if all goes well, is 100% possible as long as the first thing Terrans are doing wrong is rectified. Additionally, I have NO IDEA why Terrans don't use the raven. PDD is SO GOOD against stalkers, and can help keep those vikings alive much longer than without using it.
Anyway thats my advice/things I see Terrans doing wrong most of the time.
PDD is good against stalkers. Stalkers however are often not a significant part of a maxed lategame P army.
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Having the mentality of thinking that Protoss is impossible to beat lategame, especially at the low diamond level, is destructive. Because until you hit high masters, you're making big mistakes in your games. So this needs to be a little more introspective at Terran game play rather than QQ-spective (JOKING MODS) at Protoss lategame.
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On February 20 2012 06:10 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:53 xlava wrote:
I've talked with a lot of frustrated Terran practice partners, they all complain about this issue. However, I think its entirely possible to win macro games TvP, Terrans are just doing it wrong at the moment. There are two major errors Terrans make most of the time they play against me:
1) Not sacking scvs for more army in the late game. Terrans need to play TvP like they play TvT. Sacking around 40 scvs late game frees up a ton of army supply and will help a lot against a more cost efficient deathball.
2) Not using their air properly. Terrans seem to have gotten good at using emps, but they seem to have forgotten how to use their air. Vikings have 9 range, thats a lot. In fact its as much as the colossi. The way this game works is that the fundamentally less cost efficient race needs to have an advantage in battle in order to beat a more cost efficient race. Thats just common sense. TvP is a lot like ZvT, or ZvP. Terran has to get the concave, and use its vikings smartly in order to pick off or damage colossi before the battle even begins. All emps have to land, and the battle has to be a relative landslide in the Terrans favor, which, if all goes well, is 100% possible as long as the first thing Terrans are doing wrong is rectified. Additionally, I have NO IDEA why Terrans don't use the raven. PDD is SO GOOD against stalkers, and can help keep those vikings alive much longer than without using it.
Anyway thats my advice/things I see Terrans doing wrong most of the time. PDD is good against stalkers. Stalkers however are often not a significant part of a maxed lategame P army.
Not just that but feedback (if not used to outright kill the raven) negates PDD.
Otherwise I do think there's some good advice there
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On February 20 2012 06:35 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 06:10 Squigly wrote:On February 20 2012 05:53 xlava wrote:
I've talked with a lot of frustrated Terran practice partners, they all complain about this issue. However, I think its entirely possible to win macro games TvP, Terrans are just doing it wrong at the moment. There are two major errors Terrans make most of the time they play against me:
1) Not sacking scvs for more army in the late game. Terrans need to play TvP like they play TvT. Sacking around 40 scvs late game frees up a ton of army supply and will help a lot against a more cost efficient deathball.
2) Not using their air properly. Terrans seem to have gotten good at using emps, but they seem to have forgotten how to use their air. Vikings have 9 range, thats a lot. In fact its as much as the colossi. The way this game works is that the fundamentally less cost efficient race needs to have an advantage in battle in order to beat a more cost efficient race. Thats just common sense. TvP is a lot like ZvT, or ZvP. Terran has to get the concave, and use its vikings smartly in order to pick off or damage colossi before the battle even begins. All emps have to land, and the battle has to be a relative landslide in the Terrans favor, which, if all goes well, is 100% possible as long as the first thing Terrans are doing wrong is rectified. Additionally, I have NO IDEA why Terrans don't use the raven. PDD is SO GOOD against stalkers, and can help keep those vikings alive much longer than without using it.
Anyway thats my advice/things I see Terrans doing wrong most of the time. PDD is good against stalkers. Stalkers however are often not a significant part of a maxed lategame P army. Not just that but feedback (if not used to outright kill the raven) negates PDD. Otherwise I do think there's some good advice there
Well, storms also rip apart marines , you don't want your marines to get close to HT intill majority of storms and drained by EMP. This is just as applicable to the Raven and feedback. Not having to rebuild all your vikings after every major confrontation surely is worth the 100 energy that the PDD cost.
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On February 19 2012 17:28 Emperor_Earth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:25 mothergoose729 wrote:On February 19 2012 17:22 Emperor_Earth wrote:On February 19 2012 17:18 mothergoose729 wrote:
Hi emporer. In the two games were I attacked the front, I thought based on the fast robo and the upgrades I might have a time to do damage. In the third game, I didn't attack the front against the same build because I knew from the previous two it didn't work.
In the antiga game, I found myself significantly ahead but I didn't know what to do with that lead. My thought was that if I forced trades I could eventually wear him down. I don't have a very high win percentage against a protoss that gets to have and keep a third base. I think in the future I would play more passively with my lead, but I still wouldn't know what to do once I maxed out and had all the tech I wanted. How to I break them? Whats to stop the protoss from casually taking gold when they max out and turtling further? As they spread, defending drops becomes much harder. If you have a base or two up, the onus is on them to come out to you. Just stay outside his base pre spread out and ready to outconcave him with a drop or two daring him to meet you. He can't reliably tech switch with you having extra scans and more resources to race them that way so they have to come out for an allin. If he's really a baddie, after you get like 30 rax/15 starpoints 3-5 with reactors rest tech labs + fusion core, then make extra OCs and start sacing scvs ten at a time. So essentially try and contain him to three bases? This is my goal if I get ahead? I feel like even with a pre spread a max toss army, especially a max toss army that cut probes at like 50, is so strong. How do I make sure I win that fight or force a favorable trade? Don't always do one thing. Understand what each strat requires and risks. If a toss maxes out at 150 in army, he obv is allining and will not have any ability to sustain that attack. 1941 him. E.g., make it a multifront war where the push into the heartland will meet multiple walls of your troops. The farther away he goes from his base, the more vulnerable his own base is and the longer his reinforcement line is. And his reproduction capability is very limited.
No offense, but 1941'ing the futuristic race that can build units anywhere on the map is not a good idea. They can instant reinforce, and instant build defenses where they please.
At the same time, its very difficult to scout someone who does a reduced worker count build.
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On February 20 2012 05:53 xlava wrote:
I've talked with a lot of frustrated Terran practice partners, they all complain about this issue. However, I think its entirely possible to win macro games TvP, Terrans are just doing it wrong at the moment. There are two major errors Terrans make most of the time they play against me:
1) Not sacking scvs for more army in the late game. Terrans need to play TvP like they play TvT. Sacking around 40 scvs late game frees up a ton of army supply and will help a lot against a more cost efficient deathball.
2) Not using their air properly. Terrans seem to have gotten good at using emps, but they seem to have forgotten how to use their air. Vikings have 9 range, thats a lot. In fact its as much as the colossi. The way this game works is that the fundamentally less cost efficient race needs to have an advantage in battle in order to beat a more cost efficient race. Thats just common sense. TvP is a lot like ZvT, or ZvP. Terran has to get the concave, and use its vikings smartly in order to pick off or damage colossi before the battle even begins. All emps have to land, and the battle has to be a relative landslide in the Terrans favor, which, if all goes well, is 100% possible as long as the first thing Terrans are doing wrong is rectified. Additionally, I have NO IDEA why Terrans don't use the raven. PDD is SO GOOD against stalkers, and can help keep those vikings alive much longer than without using it.
Anyway thats my advice/things I see Terrans doing wrong most of the time.
The reasons these two errors are problems...
1) The second you sack your scvs you have gone all in, if he kills your army you lose, bottom line.
2) Your right about what Terran needs to do here, the problem is that the T has to do this very fast and very precise, one small mistake or if your a bit slow and this method just falls apart and the P rolls you. Getting a concave, focus firing collsi, emping, and stutter stepping is very hard to manage at high speeds.
Ive wanted either the Thor/BC/Raven to work into TvP as well. Some big tier 3 that helps reduce the insane amount of micro MMM takes. Despite that, through theorycraft and then practice, the same damn problem happens everytime..... feedbackk.......
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On February 20 2012 14:28 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:53 xlava wrote:
I've talked with a lot of frustrated Terran practice partners, they all complain about this issue. However, I think its entirely possible to win macro games TvP, Terrans are just doing it wrong at the moment. There are two major errors Terrans make most of the time they play against me:
1) Not sacking scvs for more army in the late game. Terrans need to play TvP like they play TvT. Sacking around 40 scvs late game frees up a ton of army supply and will help a lot against a more cost efficient deathball.
2) Not using their air properly. Terrans seem to have gotten good at using emps, but they seem to have forgotten how to use their air. Vikings have 9 range, thats a lot. In fact its as much as the colossi. The way this game works is that the fundamentally less cost efficient race needs to have an advantage in battle in order to beat a more cost efficient race. Thats just common sense. TvP is a lot like ZvT, or ZvP. Terran has to get the concave, and use its vikings smartly in order to pick off or damage colossi before the battle even begins. All emps have to land, and the battle has to be a relative landslide in the Terrans favor, which, if all goes well, is 100% possible as long as the first thing Terrans are doing wrong is rectified. Additionally, I have NO IDEA why Terrans don't use the raven. PDD is SO GOOD against stalkers, and can help keep those vikings alive much longer than without using it.
Anyway thats my advice/things I see Terrans doing wrong most of the time. The reasons these two errors are problems... 1) The second you sack your scvs you have gone all in, if he kills your army you lose, bottom line. 2) Your right about what Terran needs to do here, the problem is that the T has to do this very fast and very precise, one small mistake or if your a bit slow and this method just falls apart and the P rolls you. Getting a concave, focus firing collsi, emping, and stutter stepping is very hard to manage at high speeds. Ive wanted either the Thor/BC/Raven to work into TvP as well. Some big tier 3 that helps reduce the insane amount of micro MMM takes. Despite that, through theorycraft and then practice, the same damn problem happens everytime..... feedbackk.......
Late game terrans have been massing OC and spamming mules. You can pretty much strip an expansion of minerals when you have enough mules. You wan't to keep enough SCV to mine gas however. This dosne't really cut into production. You just stockpile minerals and use it when you need to. The benefit is that you get 30+ food in pretty much every end game fight. While the protoss has to keep atleast 50-60 probes, you can cut your scv count down to 20 and still be fine if you have enough OC.
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IMO, Terran have become dogmatically committed to going bio in this matchup. When you look at it on paper, it seems kind of obvious that your mostly tier-1 army is not going to stand up to a Protoss deathball with like three different counters to bio in it. Why do we expect marines and marauders to put up a good fight against supply-dense, splash-heavy units like colossi, high templars and archons?
Very skilled players can make this work by utilizing bio's superior mobility, harassing and dropping all over the place. But if you don't have that level of multitasking, and are inevitably just going to run your army into theirs, bio is just going to lose almost all the time unless you get an insane flank or perfect EMPs. In the endgame bio vs. deathball engagement, the onus is on the Terran to not get rolled. This is just how bio works, the same as in TvT or TvZ; you don't have inevitability in the endgame because your opponent's composition just eventually gets stronger and more supply-dense than yours.
People have remained committed to bio as the core TvP comp because there isn't an obvious alternative just yet. Tank/Marine isn't as effective as it is in TvZ or TvT, and without tanks as the backbone of your army it's difficult to think of what to build your comp around. The upgrade situation is gross too; transitioning out of bio means your upgrades get reset. But going by my experience, the best advice I can give you is to just *stop going bio*. It's not that it's a bad comp for the matchup, it's just very skill-intensive and requires a level of multitasking that most of us don't have. Personally, I have had more success with the following comps:
* 2-base marine/thor/banshee push (this transitions reasonably well into the lategame in my experience, and doesn't need to be an all-in)
* Mech (hellion/tank/thor/banshee, eventually getting ghosts). The tanks play a much more supporting role here though; you don't actually want too many)
If you do decide to stick with bio, the most important thing I realized is that marauders are not as good as you think they are. They feel attractive because they murder stalkers and are more resilient to the huge splash damage from colossi or high templar (whereas marines just get vaporized), but their damage output sucks unless you're shooting stalkers, and marine DPS is awesome. A heavy marine/ghost comp with just enough marauders to get in the way of zealots has served me best. If you can get a flank on colossi with a hit squad of marauders, though, you'll be a happy camper.
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Man I really like this thread 
Half the time these kinds of threads that pose balance questions end up being whine parties, that then turn into heated arguments that go in circles until the thread is closed.
But rather it's a bunch of helpful people giving solid advice.
This makes me happy.
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On February 20 2012 17:28 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Man I really like this thread Half the time these kinds of threads that pose balance questions end up being whine parties, that then turn into heated arguments that go in circles until the thread is closed. But rather it's a bunch of helpful people giving solid advice. This makes me happy.
Too bad the title is totally whinny, not tl worhty.
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On February 20 2012 17:33 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 17:28 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Man I really like this thread Half the time these kinds of threads that pose balance questions end up being whine parties, that then turn into heated arguments that go in circles until the thread is closed. But rather it's a bunch of helpful people giving solid advice. This makes me happy. Too bad the title is totally whinny, not tl worhty.
Yes but the thread is not
and honestly that is what really counts
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You should watch the TvP vlogs Lastshadow made recently.
Together they are like 2 hours long and way more elaborate than any forum post can ever be.
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At your level, you can without taking any risk go for pressure builds or harass based builds which will force mistakes from your diamond leveled opponents.
I go for 1 rax FE into 4 naked rax pressure. Very good build, allows for some pressure (during which you read his build), good defense capabilities, but slightly slower tech.
Don't hesitate to drop, shift queue drops require much more APM from the Protoss to defend than from the Terran to execute in midgame (In lategame, he will just warp 10+ units so it's not really worth it).
You must understand that the matchup is not at all impossible at such a low level. There is just so much you can improve that it's not worth starting ranting on imbalances and whatnot. The matchup is indeed very hard at the top level, but at yours, just improve a bit and you'll beat your current opponents np ezpz.
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I advice anyone having trouble in TvP to watch Lastshadow's vlog, starting from vlog n°12 to vlog n°15. These are very interesting and educationnal, as well as very high level in depth analysis of the match up. Support this guy! Link of the vlog n°12 in spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +
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EPT
