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On February 02 2012 05:54 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +You can control everything fine with 3 hotkeys. Id be fine with 2 tbh. The backspace method is the only way to free up any keys but has the drawback of being so spammy and buggy. I don't need to hotkey queens. Base cameras are inferior to individual bindings for two reasons. I can't imagine anyone at the higher level of play, can play with using only 3 hotkeys. I don't think any of the masters+ players play with using any less than 2 hotkeys for their army, if not 3. I am astounded that you don't put queens on hotkeys, not to mention upgrade facilties and evo chambers. How do you check progress on an upgrade, for when to best attack? ZvZ is 100% about knowing when your +1 missile finishes, or when speed finishes, or when +2 finishes, or when muta carapace finishes. What about infestors, how do you know when to spawn them without checking to see if infestation pit is at 31/80 or not? Or do you always waste time looking back at the base? Do you just make infestors 'whenever' and just wing it by starting the infestors at maybe 50/80 because you couldn't hotkey your infestation pit so you could start the infestors at a crisp 31/80. How in the world do you play? Do you play so liberally that such timings don't matter? Do you just make an infestation pit super early in the game, despite not using it at all? I mean when I play, and I think most people, they get the infestation pit because they plan to field infestors 131 seconds, or just 2 minutes 11 seconds, from when they start it. Do you just make like, the infestation pit 3 minutes before you need infestors, because you don't check the times on things? I don't get it. And then like, your injects. How can you possibly inject without queens on a hotkey? Don't tell me that by 3 hotkeys in total, you keep your whole army on one hotkey. Because that's insane. So when fighting toss or zerg, you just a-move roach/hydra and let your hydras get hit by the enemy? Do you not move command and 'hug' the opponents army with your roaches and just get completely owned by stalkers every time? Do you let banelings detonate on siege tanks and thors and marauders? How do you control your mutas? Are you one of those zergs who a-move with mass roach/infestor and let their infestors wander right into the opponent's army? >< Show nested quote +Backspace inject is indeed spammy and buggy. Darkgrid base cams aren't, while being more or less just as fast. The whole 'problem' with the backspace inject method is solved 100% if you just hit "Hold/Stop" after injecting with all the queens so they don't run to hatches with no queen at it. Personally, I always make a queen at every hatch, and can't imagine playing any other way, so I never have buggy issues, but if I don't have a queen, I just hit 4-stop to prevent 'buggy'. It's a shitton easier to backspace inject then hit 4-Stop, then it is to do any other inject method which is much, much slower.
You'll actually be hard pressed to find any pro zergs who use more than 3 control groups for units, I think ret does, thats the only one I can think of atm though. NesTea Losira CoCa etc all use 2, tonnes of people from DRG and Leenock to Idra use 3.
I bind my upgrades to 9 generally, I didn't mention that because I eventually use that for a hatchery.
If you watch the IM stream I think you will appreciate why individual bindings work so well if you have the APM for it. There are plenty of NesTea vods.
The backspace method is horrible for trying to manage unsynced hatcheries. You can watch some players like Vibe sometimes trying to force backspace to work on unsynced hatcheries and its unbelievably spammy.
For the other stuff, no I just use a mouse like most other people, I don't need a different hotkey for every type of unit i have its pointless.
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using grid
1-3 hatches
4 all hatches
5, 6, 7, 8 first 4 individual hatches
z = 9
h = 0 -> h in the beginning for creep queen, later z and h can be used for army to have 5 control grps and use 9 and 0.
i recently read about base cams in a terran thread and i have to say this is really a big deal for me now.
F1 - F4 i use for the first 4 bases and F5 for my main rally point.
i feel the base cams really save a lot of clicking on the minimap. For example i want to ex F1 click a drone F2 click to the expansion, do some shit with your drone, click F2 and you re at the expo. i still takes time, especially in the later stages of the game, to totally adjust, but i feel this can be used for so much, really advise it.
space is alternative "x" ( which is inject, fungal in grid ) to be able to inject when i jump through hatches with 5-8.
I read someone is using alt combinations, so maybe will change alt + qwert to hatches.
Question i have: i wanted to train removing my hand ( ring finger normally hits q ) and putting the ring on 5 and then jumping through hatches. I see a lot of pros jumping on the keyboard quite the distance... and it could serve well as cycling through the bases to see what needs to be injected similar as terrans do with their buildings. do you feel it s to much and not so useful as a zerg? cause u can wait till all hatches sync up on injects and u can just check with main hatch key?
edit: can some ppl stop being so nazi about their setup?
recently downloaded some nerchio replays and he played in most of them with 1 key for all hatches and 1 or 2 for his army...
end...
in the end the human body/brain adjusts to nearly everything and the layout of your keyboard is just secondary and very individual. Just think about moments during the game, where u want to do something but u can't, because you re really hindered by the mechanic...then change it. there is no "best" way, or noob way. Look at gsl, for a year, and even now top players playing with minimal keys.
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Here's my setup:
1-3: units (1: meat - Roach, Hydra, BL's, Ultras, etc... 2: Second group, or spellcasters... 3: Mobility via Lings or Mutas)
4: All Hatches
5: Main (and macro hatch in main, if applicable)
6: Natural (and macro hatch in nat, if applicable)
7: Third (ditto)
8: Fourth (ditto)
Caps Lock (Rebind of 9): Queens
~ (Rebind of 0): Overseer, or Overlords for drops, or in early game, important building (Pool during Speed upgrade, Evo chambers during upgrades, etc)
I use Caps Lock with the spacebar inject method although I've gotten away from keeping on top of it with that method lately.
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Something that haven't been mentioned is to bind creep tumor to a specific hotkey. For me, it's 'c'. So, for instance, the second I put a creep tumor, I select it bind it to C while it's building. Then, later on, I press CC to select the view on it, and put another one which I then hotkey to C. Later on in the game, you can have 4-5 creep tumors and just CC click click click click click and rebind the new ones to CC. I also like to bind my anti-air to ~.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On February 02 2012 05:54 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +You can control everything fine with 3 hotkeys. Id be fine with 2 tbh. The backspace method is the only way to free up any keys but has the drawback of being so spammy and buggy. I don't need to hotkey queens. Base cameras are inferior to individual bindings for two reasons. I can't imagine anyone at the higher level of play, can play with using only 3 hotkeys. I don't think any of the masters+ players play with using any less than 2 hotkeys for their army, if not 3. I am astounded that you don't put queens on hotkeys, not to mention upgrade facilties and evo chambers. How do you check progress on an upgrade, for when to best attack? ZvZ is 100% about knowing when your +1 missile finishes, or when speed finishes, or when +2 finishes, or when muta carapace finishes. What about infestors, how do you know when to spawn them without checking to see if infestation pit is at 31/80 or not? Or do you always waste time looking back at the base? Do you just make infestors 'whenever' and just wing it by starting the infestors at maybe 50/80 because you couldn't hotkey your infestation pit so you could start the infestors at a crisp 31/80. How in the world do you play? Do you play so liberally that such timings don't matter? Do you just make an infestation pit super early in the game, despite not using it at all? I mean when I play, and I think most people, they get the infestation pit because they plan to field infestors 131 seconds, or just 2 minutes 11 seconds, from when they start it. Do you just make like, the infestation pit 3 minutes before you need infestors, because you don't check the times on things? I don't get it. And then like, your injects. How can you possibly inject without queens on a hotkey? Don't tell me that by 3 hotkeys in total, you keep your whole army on one hotkey. Because that's insane. So when fighting toss or zerg, you just a-move roach/hydra and let your hydras get hit by the enemy? Do you not move command and 'hug' the opponents army with your roaches and just get completely owned by stalkers every time? Do you let banelings detonate on siege tanks and thors and marauders? How do you control your mutas? Are you one of those zergs who a-move with mass roach/infestor and let their infestors wander right into the opponent's army? >< Show nested quote +Backspace inject is indeed spammy and buggy. Darkgrid base cams aren't, while being more or less just as fast. The whole 'problem' with the backspace inject method is solved 100% if you just hit "Hold/Stop" after injecting with all the queens so they don't run to hatches with no queen at it. Personally, I always make a queen at every hatch, and can't imagine playing any other way, so I never have buggy issues, but if I don't have a queen, I just hit 4-stop to prevent 'buggy'. It's a shitton easier to backspace inject then hit 4-Stop, then it is to do any other inject method which is much, much slower.
Can you please stop trying to act like you know what you or talking about, because you don't and nor you a good player. I am sick and tired of seeing your nonsensical posts in threads after threads. You have single handedly ruined tl.net for me.
You know who uses only 4hotkeys as zerg ?? Stephano
You know who uses 2hotkeys for units for throughout most of the game?? MVP & Stephano
Nearly no one at the top level(Zergs) bind their tech buildings.
Your lenghty post appear to be intelligible on the surface but they are useless and filled with you shoving down your sudo pretentious knowledge onto others.
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I don't recommend mine, but I just thought I'd mention it for laughs. I don't have any altered hotkeys.
1 - Main Hatch
2 - Natural Hatch
3 - Main Army Hotkey
4 - Spellcaster/Secondary Army Hotkey
5 - 3rd Hatch
6 - 4th Hatch
7 - 5th Hatch
8 - 6th Hatch
9 - Evo Chambers
0 - Scouting Overlord
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My setup:
` - Creep queen (rebound 0)
1 - All hatches
2 - Initial scout, then main army
3 - Secondary army
4 - overseer (situational)
5 - 7 - individual hatch queens
Something that has helped me a lot is rebinding anything that morphs an existing unit/structure to 'E'. This means lair, hive, greater spire, bane, and broods are all rebound to that key. All other upgrades are grid. Just one less thing to think about when I select something with the purpose of morphing it.
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The only important part to take from this thread is to take one setup and adhere to it religiously. Even if it's a shit hotkey settup efficiency wise, you're always better off always know where everything is. One of my friends is a high master on the korean server, he uses 1 for CC's, 2 for Rax every other tech structure he has on 3, then controls his army ith 0987. drops on 4, 5 and 6. This is horribly inefficient (Marines on 0 ans he has to keep his hand on S T 0 and 9A for his tanks, wtf) and I make fun of him all the time for it, but it works for him, so that's what he uses.
As for what I use, as a zerg I like...
1) Lings -The rest of my main army after I go BL/Infestor
2) Banes/Roaches (depending on the matchup); Corrupters lategame
3) Support units; Mutas if I'm going for muta or either hydras, ultras, or whatever I'm using as a "power unit" in the game -BL lategame
4) Infestors -Early game I use 4 to check for important tech/ups; spawning pool for ling speed, bane nest in zvz after ling speed,
5) All Hatches
6) Main Hatch for lair/Hive upgrade and to glance for the spawn larvae timer
7) Queens
8) Nydus
9) Harass/drops/important burrowed ling/bane
0) Harass/drops/Important burrowed ling/bane
I always keep my evos by a hatch so I see the timers while I'm cycling spawn larvae. I've remapped W to cycle for queen macro.
F2 is my main
F3 is my newest base that I need to jump to to rally drones, but drones in gas, etc
F4 is my army rally
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My setup (pretty sure I've posted on a thread like this before)
1 - Main Army
2 - Mutas / Infestors / anything that needs to be microed
3 - Evo chambers / Spires
4 - Main hatch
5 - Natural hatch
6 - Third hatch
7 - Queens
0 - All hatcheries (Bounded to ~)
All upgrades and castable abilities bound to Z, X and C
All building morphs bound to Z
-edit-
Oh yes, and I use the base cam cycle method to inject larvae once I have more than 3 hatcheries. If not, I use BW style.
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how do you do injects faster?? i got all my queens on 4 and my lairs etc. on 5. i always have to do one indivdually to inject larvae. And how do you it without having to turn away from a battle taking place. diamond player here can someone do a step by step for me please i would much appreciate it :D
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On February 02 2012 07:36 bagina wrote:
some good feedback in here!
some on page 1 suggested i rebind all my tech to the same hotgroup as my queens.... why on earth would anyone do that? i have 7 accessible hotgroups on the keyboard, and 3 more on my mouse. its not like i need to free up an additional hotgroup, and if i did "4" is barely used and would serve the purpose just fine. also adding my tech to my queen grouping would require an extra "tab" every time i wanted to access my tech. seems a bit silly to me!
That was me, and it not silly in the slightest.
Hotkeying all your tech buildings I think we can all agree is a good thing, as this allows you to upgrade, and check upgrade progress, easily from anywhere on the map. However, if you have multiple evo chambers or multiple spires you cannot check upgrade progress by tabbing alone; you must instead click on the building you are interested in. So if we are resigned to clicking the building of interest already in many cases, and as mixing buildings with our queens does not impede our queen functionality at all, why not throw the upgrade buildings into our convenient queen hotkey group? It's not so much trying to save a hotkey, as "why not use the most convenient hotkey?".
As far as the people talking about "not needing many hotkeys for army"... I know that some pros use barely any hotkeys, but as someone who uses many, I cannot believe that can possibly be optimal. Pros may be successful, but that does not mean everything they are doing is flawless and perfect. Personally I in a game it would be common for me to have army mixed across three or four hotkeys, and in some games five+.
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I personally use my mousebuttons for my armycontroll and people used to laugh at me ^_^;; what I am saying is it is actually not really important what you use as long as you are capable of dealing with them properly. The only thing that's realy important is not to use the backspace methode if you want to inject. I play with it and I am very upset about the methode. I feel like if you want to change something in your hotkey settings, either put every queen on a different hotkey or every hatchery. I feel like the effort you get out of that change is huge.
In the latergame stages the backspace methode just screws you over ^__^;; but regarding your hotkeys you use for spells is actually quite irrelevant!
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On February 02 2012 11:32 Gunman_csz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 05:54 Belial88 wrote:You can control everything fine with 3 hotkeys. Id be fine with 2 tbh. The backspace method is the only way to free up any keys but has the drawback of being so spammy and buggy. I don't need to hotkey queens. Base cameras are inferior to individual bindings for two reasons. I can't imagine anyone at the higher level of play, can play with using only 3 hotkeys. I don't think any of the masters+ players play with using any less than 2 hotkeys for their army, if not 3. I am astounded that you don't put queens on hotkeys, not to mention upgrade facilties and evo chambers. How do you check progress on an upgrade, for when to best attack? ZvZ is 100% about knowing when your +1 missile finishes, or when speed finishes, or when +2 finishes, or when muta carapace finishes. What about infestors, how do you know when to spawn them without checking to see if infestation pit is at 31/80 or not? Or do you always waste time looking back at the base? Do you just make infestors 'whenever' and just wing it by starting the infestors at maybe 50/80 because you couldn't hotkey your infestation pit so you could start the infestors at a crisp 31/80. How in the world do you play? Do you play so liberally that such timings don't matter? Do you just make an infestation pit super early in the game, despite not using it at all? I mean when I play, and I think most people, they get the infestation pit because they plan to field infestors 131 seconds, or just 2 minutes 11 seconds, from when they start it. Do you just make like, the infestation pit 3 minutes before you need infestors, because you don't check the times on things? I don't get it. And then like, your injects. How can you possibly inject without queens on a hotkey? Don't tell me that by 3 hotkeys in total, you keep your whole army on one hotkey. Because that's insane. So when fighting toss or zerg, you just a-move roach/hydra and let your hydras get hit by the enemy? Do you not move command and 'hug' the opponents army with your roaches and just get completely owned by stalkers every time? Do you let banelings detonate on siege tanks and thors and marauders? How do you control your mutas? Are you one of those zergs who a-move with mass roach/infestor and let their infestors wander right into the opponent's army? >< Backspace inject is indeed spammy and buggy. Darkgrid base cams aren't, while being more or less just as fast. The whole 'problem' with the backspace inject method is solved 100% if you just hit "Hold/Stop" after injecting with all the queens so they don't run to hatches with no queen at it. Personally, I always make a queen at every hatch, and can't imagine playing any other way, so I never have buggy issues, but if I don't have a queen, I just hit 4-stop to prevent 'buggy'. It's a shitton easier to backspace inject then hit 4-Stop, then it is to do any other inject method which is much, much slower. Can you please stop trying to act like you know what you or talking about, because you don't and nor you a good player. I am sick and tired of seeing your nonsensical posts in threads after threads. You have single handedly ruined tl.net for me. You know who uses only 4hotkeys as zerg ?? Stephano You know who uses 2hotkeys for units for throughout most of the game?? MVP & Stephano Nearly no one at the top level(Zergs) bind their tech buildings. Your lenghty post appear to be intelligible on the surface but they are useless and filled with you shoving down your sudo pretentious knowledge onto others.
I cannot agree with you more. Almost all Korean Zergs don't bind their queens. They just box and v click. Stephano and Sen are the foreigner examples. as long as you remember to inject it you will be fine. and thats what macro hatches are for as well.
For army control, I saw forgg almost did not use hotkeys for army at all. His hotkeys are almost purely for macro.
But belial is cool tho, don't attack others.
The only zerg pro that I saw who binds everything into hotkeys is ViBE, and his APM is insane. His play makes me want to use hotkeys a lot more.
Now my 2 cents:
~ - control group 0 - corruptors / late game mutas / flank
1 - main ground (ling/roach/hydra)
2 - roach early game / infestor late game
3 - mutas / BLs
4 - all queens
5 - all hatches
6 - I am trying to bind all my tech buildings there, but almost always forgot
F2 - control group 7 - scout / creep queens
F3 - control group 8 - 1st overlord scout
F4 - control group 9 - trying to bind evo chambers and spires on for upgrade.
I bind my backspace to a side button of my mouse.
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On February 02 2012 05:54 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Backspace inject is indeed spammy and buggy. Darkgrid base cams aren't, while being more or less just as fast. The whole 'problem' with the backspace inject method is solved 100% if you just hit "Hold/Stop" after injecting with all the queens so they don't run to hatches with no queen at it. Personally, I always make a queen at every hatch, and can't imagine playing any other way, so I never have buggy issues, but if I don't have a queen, I just hit 4-stop to prevent 'buggy'. It's a shitton easier to backspace inject then hit 4-Stop, then it is to do any other inject method which is much, much slower.
Making one queen at every hatch hurts your army supply loads without much benefit compared to getting more bases.
Pressing stop helps, but I don't like it. If one of your queens is a bit away from a hatch (maybe it was harassed etc), it might not even reach the hatch before you press stop, and you're not going to know. The thing is that using base cams, if you have a proper setup, is just as fast, with 0 of the issues, you can even on-the-go decide to not inject one of your bases if you want to put down a tumor etc.
I definitely recommend backspace inject->stop to anyone who isn't interested in changing their hotkeys, but it's a bit sad that the vast majority of players don't know how it works in Darkgrid so they just assume that backspace inject, with flaws or not, is the optimal way to inject.
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Wow, some people here have fucking wierd hotkey setups (binding things to your mouse, qwerty etc) o_o...
Anyway, when I play zerg I just use classic and 5-0 hatches, and then my active tech building on 4. 1-3 army. Oh and lol at the guy who got on the rant about army hotkeys when like every good zerg is using 2-3 army hotkeys. If people can use 3 hotkeys for units in BW they sure as hell can do it in Sc2 aswell, which every good zerg in korea have proven already.
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I find it ridiculous overall that people seriously defend using few hotkeys over many, what can possibly be your arguments? That pros do? Pros use standard (with a few modifications), a keyboard setup where the NAMES of commands are more important than effectivity of placement. It's without a doubt shit when it comes to efficiency. They only use it because that's what they are used to, it's what they've played with from day one and with the amount of hours they invest, it's not like they are going to risk a slump over fixing something which works for them. Doesn't mean it's in any way optimal or efficient.
Less control can never be more effective than more control.
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On February 02 2012 18:00 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 05:54 Belial88 wrote:Backspace inject is indeed spammy and buggy. Darkgrid base cams aren't, while being more or less just as fast. The whole 'problem' with the backspace inject method is solved 100% if you just hit "Hold/Stop" after injecting with all the queens so they don't run to hatches with no queen at it. Personally, I always make a queen at every hatch, and can't imagine playing any other way, so I never have buggy issues, but if I don't have a queen, I just hit 4-stop to prevent 'buggy'. It's a shitton easier to backspace inject then hit 4-Stop, then it is to do any other inject method which is much, much slower. Making one queen at every hatch hurts your army supply loads without much benefit compared to getting more bases. Pressing stop helps, but I don't like it. If one of your queens is a bit away from a hatch (maybe it was harassed etc), it might not even reach the hatch before you press stop, and you're not going to know. The thing is that using base cams, if you have a proper setup, is just as fast, with 0 of the issues, you can even on-the-go decide to not inject one of your bases if you want to put down a tumor etc. I definitely recommend backspace inject->stop to anyone who isn't interested in changing their hotkeys, but it's a bit sad that the vast majority of players don't know how it works in Darkgrid so they just assume that backspace inject, with flaws or not, is the optimal way to inject.
Yeah the Darkgrid method is great; I don't use Darkgrid (I use my own custom setup) but my injection method is very similar (also my creep spreading method is also similar to my injection keys) 
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I put my queens on 5, my hatchs on 4. The "return to base" is on a button on the mouse right under my thumb.
When I want to inject, I just push "5", then I hold "V" (injection, no need to push and hold Shift), then I go : "LEFT CLICK, THUMB CLICK, LEFT CLICK, THUMB CLICK, etc..." like a madman.
Edit : By the way : Stephano, who is known to be a..."good" zerg at the very least, has only 2 control groups when playing a "ROACHS INFESTORS CORRUPTERS BROODLORS" style.
1. Roachs Infestors Corrupters (when selecting the whole group, you can still cast fungals cause infestors are casters)
2. Broodlords
3. Queens
4. Hatchs
Nothing on 5,6,7,8,9,0.
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I have on my hotkeys as zerg:
1 - main army
2 - infestors/banelings - but priority on infestors if I have both in an army
3 - Broodlords/creep-spreading queens/scouting drone
4 - all my hatcheries
5 - queen
6 - queen
7 - queen
8 - queen
9 - nothing
0 - nothing
After the 8th queen I put them all on one hotkey and use the backspace trick which is really good when you have a very large amount of hatcheries.
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On February 02 2012 18:48 Lasbike wrote:Edit : By the way : Stephano, who is known to be a..."good" zerg at the very least, has only 2 control groups when playing a "ROACHS INFESTORS CORRUPTERS BROODLORS" style.
1. Roachs Infestors Corrupters (when selecting the whole group, you can still cast fungals cause infestors are casters)
2. Broodlords
3. Queens
4. Hatchs
Nothing on 5,6,7,8,9,0.
Not a very effective setup to say the least, it's a perfect situation to have your corrupters and infestors run into your opponents army and die horribly. Obviously Stephano has more than enough APM to keep this from happening by using his mouse, but no reason to use a less optimal system when you can just as easily have them all in their own groups.
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EPT
