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I was discussing with my friends about the state of TvP currently, he being a Terran player and myself being a Protoss player, I of course as a Protoss calling Ghosts OP and him calling Chargelots OP as Protoss and Terran friends do to each other.
But as we got pass all that and began to discuss it more seriously along side the observation of late game TvP where some Terran players cannot seem to manage with mass Chargelots and it got me wondering, why is it that Terran players do not simply tech switch once they scout either through a scan or an early game battle, that the Protoss is going Chargelot HT Archon.
From what I have seen in my games versus Terran and games I have watched of top level players, when the Protoss goes for this Chargelot based build that they continue to build units which are inherently bad versus Chargelots (Marauders) especially once the Protoss is on 3-3-3. But it seems to me that Terran players could in this situation cease production of Marauders and begin to pump out Reactor Hellions which in fact cost less than Marauders due to costing no gas and can be built 2 at a time, and will in my view be must more useful in a direct fight due to the large amounts of splash damage, before engaging can push forward get some volleys off and retreat to main army getting some initial damage off before the fight begins and be used in drops to devastate mineral lines abusing the immobility of Chargelots.
The way I see it a Terran player could drop off 4 Marauders, fly home with the Medivac, stim in and pick off a tech structure (Robo, Forges, Templar Archive) to free up supply for units which will be more cost effective versus Zealots and delay them moving out while you transition and potentially stop them from tech switching.
This is of course my theory crafting as I am not a Terran player of any stretch, so I thought I'd pitch it and ask here on TL, why is it Terran players either don't do this, or simply cannot do this, as I personally cannot think of a good reason why it doesn't happen.
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1 easy thing that you overlooked is that hellion require blue flame to be "somewhat" effective, and you need mech attack and armour ugprades to keep them alive long enough. The hellions strenght is speed/mobility which just gets denied in a battle due to the slow marauders.
What terrans need to do is add in more marines when they see a zealot archons tech switch, not try to go for hellions.
There are also two different types of techswitches in the protoss army, from colossi into chargelot stalker storm with 1 forge, or double forge late colossi into zealot archon. For the latter you need more marines and in the first case you don't need to switch up anything, you just need to keep on top of your stutter step micro.
Also 15+ ghosts rip any amount of zealot archons apart with marauders and stutter step micro
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The problem with tech-switching for Ts is that since they invested so much into the rax for the bioball, they do not have the resources or the time to build factories to pump out hellions.
Also, 3/3/3 zealots against (most likely) 0/0 red flame hellions isn't great!
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key to chargelot army against bio is in your engagements. generally you want marauders to tank the damage and let your marines deal the damage, ideally at a choke where you can make a concave around the toss's army.
On January 27 2012 07:28 RieuK wrote:
The problem with tech-switching for Ts is that since they invested so much into the rax for the bioball, they do not have the resources or the time to build factories to pump out hellions.
Also, 3/3/3 zealots against (most likely) 0/0 red flame hellions isn't great!
+1... it would take too long to set up the infrastructure for output and upgrades to make it worthwhile, and it's pretty much GG if this transition cuts into your marine production on your rax. basically the only time one might even consider this transition is if you have a lot of minerals stacked up while your army is maxed out
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The only thing that migh be worth tech switching to is air since it doesn't make sense to go for hellions which are pretty useless without upgrades against upgraded gateway units. Also they cost only minerals and this is a very big problem since most of the hassle late game TvP is about stems from most of Terrans units costing mostly minerals making it so you don't even use your geysirs on your fourth and fifth base while Protoss will immediately take those geysirs and put them in use by warping templars for storms and archons. It would really make sense to add another gas heavy unit to the composition but so far I haven't really found a conclusive way of going for ghost raven viking marine in this match up.
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0/0 hellions can't touch 3/3/3 zealots, it's simple as that. Just have to go marine heavy and hope for the best.
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At this moment and this current state of the game. really transitioning to anything after your bio is almost impossible.One of the reasons is even if we consider you are both maxed and you start spending rescources to establish a solid infrastracture for your transititon the protoss player is banking way more than you at this moment and maybe adds a reasonable number of gates.Considering that you get an even fight with your 200/200 balls the protoss will then instantly remax while you struggle and wait for those long time BCs and whatever the hell you wanna build,The only way to win TvP at this moment if you decide to go on a macro game(not talking about pro gamers) is to get an advantage in the midgame by sniping stuff and or denying expos via drops or multi prong aggression and work your ass off on getting good positions for the inevitable engagement..Hit your emps shutter step your ass off and hope that your economy is better and the next battle will begin with you at already a big advantage.There are some ppl out there who can succesfuly pull some thor banshee builds or even pure mech but i think its only suited on some maps and if you dont have the skills to micro your bio dont even think for a second that having the awereness to keep mech alive until its in the position it should be is a lesser job.Just my 2 cents!
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On January 27 2012 07:28 RieuK wrote:
The problem with tech-switching for Ts is that since they invested so much into the rax for the bioball, they do not have the resources or the time to build factories to pump out hellions.
Also, 3/3/3 zealots against (most likely) 0/0 red flame hellions isn't great!
Completely true. It costs far less for the Protoss to tech switch to Chargelots because they should already have lots of Gateways. In addition to the cost, there's a significant delay; you need 60 seconds to build Factories, and 110 seconds to research Preigniter. This gives the Protoss a minimum of 110 seconds, assuming you switch the factories onto existing addons, before you can have Blueflame Hellions are on the field, and as much as 170 if the Terran lost their Factory scouting. The biggest problem, of course, is that while the Hellions will solve your Zeal/Archon Problem, the Protoss can immediately transition out, and produce Stalkers. While Hellions are great units to have in all matchups, mass hellion is not what you want to be stuck with against Stalker/Colossus.
Marines are a better answer, so long as you are 3/3; they do not excel vs. Chargelots, due to Zealot's base 1 armor, and because of their reliance on a high rate of fire, you're fairly screwed if behind on upgrades. They start to trade well, however, when their range kicks in in larger engagements. You need to have your Marauders in front, abusing their base armor against the zealots, and never, ever let the Zealots wrap around you. Kite back, get into an enclosed area, and let them do their work.
Really, the main issue many Terrans lategame vs. Chargelots is when you have massive engagements between your deathball armies. Oftentimes, the two destroy each other; EMPs rain down, Colossus burn off huge quantities of infantry, Storms kill everything, you know the drill. Unless Terran dominates their opponent, they're going to a very small army, or possibly no army. When a Protoss gets into the endgame, they should start spending lots of their excess minerals on Gateways. So, when the dust settles, they can immediately Warp-in 20 or so Chargelots from a forward pylon, Chronoboost as many gateways as they can, and use the swell of units and rapid reinforcement to overwhelm the Terran before they can get a critical mass of Bio together to defend.
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Also, an upgrade disadvantage hurts marines very badly when fighting against zealots. Sure upgrades are always important, but against chargelots even more so. And I suppose kiting them out of the sentries' guardian shield is useful too. Trying to engage at a good spot can help a lot - In GSL you'll often see both T and P sitting on 200/200 just out of range of eachother poking back and forth, not engaging because neither wants to step in and fight at a bad position.
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I dont get why terrans say chargelots are op. Im myself gm with protoss(main) and high master with terran(offrace). I find pvt lategame super easy for terran. For example i was playing against my high master protoss friend and watched replay and gave him some tips. In 200 vs 200 fight both had 3-3 upgrades and he had 35 chargelots. 10 seconds after the fight started he was down to 130 supply while i was down to 183. All of his chargelots died superfast to 10 ghosts, emps, marines etc.. and 3 colos died to 12 vikings before they could even shoot. I think if you have problems then its propably your bad positioning. And i think its much easier to position terran army than protoss army.
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200/200 and only 3 colo? Where are the templar?
Sounds like he attacked into you, in an awful position. I don't know how you are GM if you can't immediately recognize that.
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a stimmed marauder does more damage vs light than a blue flame hellion marauder also have more health more armor can be healed and it's upgrades stack with ghosts and marines.
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The upgrades make this not good. Also, Hellions aren't nearly as good against Zealots as you might expect. They still take a long time to actually kill them and when Zealots are supported by either Storms or Colossi the Hellions will die super quickly.
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On January 27 2012 10:01 architecture wrote:
200/200 and only 3 colo? Where are the templar?
Sounds like he attacked into you, in an awful position. I don't know how you are GM if you can't immediately recognize that.
He never said he only had 3 collosi, he only stated that 3 of x collosi went down before firing a shot. Never said anything about templars either so he might have had a few in his army. I don't know how why you BM him if you don't read properly.
OT: As a terran player myself I think as well that the hellion switch would be ineffective. This is due to reasons other people already mentioned (upgrades, building more factories etc). Also the problem with switching to mass marine (in my experience this is), is that storms just rip them apart. I know I can kite or EMP etc but somehow with the EMP radius reduction I feel like P has the upper hand with storm/feedback vs. EMP.
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More marines, fewer marauders, more ghosts. Ghosts do more dps to light than hellions do. Ghosts can EMP, snipe, cloak and nuke. Ghosts come from the barracks, which will have tech labs if you go bio.
In summary, marines and ghosts.
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Everytime I download a TvP replay, when I see the Terran win in the 200/200 battles, they EMP everything and are very Marine heavy. I dunno why most Terrans have so much Marauders late game. It seems incredibly useless vs mass Chargelots/Archons and they will never be able to touch the Colo.
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On January 27 2012 10:11 Paulio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 10:01 architecture wrote:
200/200 and only 3 colo? Where are the templar?
Sounds like he attacked into you, in an awful position. I don't know how you are GM if you can't immediately recognize that. He never said he only had 3 collosi, he only stated that 3 of x collosi went down before firing a shot. Never said anything about templars either so he might have had a few in his army. I don't know how why you BM him if you don't read properly. OT: As a terran player myself I think as well that the hellion switch would be ineffective. This is due to reasons other people already mentioned (upgrades, building more factories etc). Also the problem with switchin to mass marine (in my experience this is), is that storms just rip them apart. I know I can kite or EMP etc but somehow with the EMP radius reduction I feel like P has the upper hand with storm/feedback vs. EMP.
What sort of awful positioning do you have to have to lose 3 Colo to 12 vikings.
First of all, 12 vikings does not even 1 shot a colo, so you would need to 2 shot colo. At firing rate of 2s, you are expecting upwards of 10-12s to do this.
What is this positioning that lets this happen?
If a "GM" player can't recognize this as a tremendous blunder, I don't know what else to say.
And the point about positioning. Both races are dependent on positioning. T will NOT win a straight up fight in the open. It has to abuse position to minimize surface area against zeals + minimize # of AOE. Similarly, P throwing units at a T wedged in somewhere is going to get shit on as zeals die without doing anything.
The fact is that chargelots are amazing. They, like cracklings, make it such that it's suicide to engage P/Z as T out in the open. The T army is simply not efficient enough to do that. Just like the P army is unable to engage Z without FF. But T wins by using proper positioning to reduce the straightup efficiency of the other armies by punishing melee heavy armies and picking off crucial support.
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On January 27 2012 10:23 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 10:11 Paulio wrote:On January 27 2012 10:01 architecture wrote:
200/200 and only 3 colo? Where are the templar?
Sounds like he attacked into you, in an awful position. I don't know how you are GM if you can't immediately recognize that. He never said he only had 3 collosi, he only stated that 3 of x collosi went down before firing a shot. Never said anything about templars either so he might have had a few in his army. I don't know how why you BM him if you don't read properly. OT: As a terran player myself I think as well that the hellion switch would be ineffective. This is due to reasons other people already mentioned (upgrades, building more factories etc). Also the problem with switchin to mass marine (in my experience this is), is that storms just rip them apart. I know I can kite or EMP etc but somehow with the EMP radius reduction I feel like P has the upper hand with storm/feedback vs. EMP. What sort of awful positioning do you have to have to lose 3 Colo to 12 vikings. First of all, 12 vikings does not even 1 shot a colo, so you would need to 2 shot colo. At firing rate of 2s, you are expecting upwards of 10-12s to do this. What is this positioning that lets this happen? If a "GM" player can't recognize this as a tremendous blunder, I don't know what else to say. And the point about positioning. Both races are dependent on positioning. T will NOT win a straight up fight in the open. It has to abuse position to minimize surface area against zeals + minimize # of AOE. Similarly, P throwing units at a T wedged in somewhere is going to get shit on as zeals die without doing anything. The fact is that chargelots are amazing. They, like cracklings, make it such that it's suicide to engage P/Z as T out in the open. The T army is simply not efficient enough to do that. Just like the P army is unable to engage Z without FF. But T wins by using proper positioning to reduce the straightup efficiency of the other armies by punishing melee heavy armies and picking off crucial support.
Someone losing 3 collosi before firing a shot could be due to bad positioning, it might as well have been due to the vikings being in a great spot(like over a crevasse or something where the stalkers/archons can't hit them properly). I honestly dont know how many vikings it takes to 1shot a collosus, but i think 12 is just short of it (if the collosus has 3 armor and the vikings don't have attack upgrades).
Also, you are right about the positioning and that T will lose on open ground. But then again, the guy didn't say anything about the positioning of the armies in the fight he described. The point I'm trying to make is that you shouldn't just BM anyone without knowing many details. And this thread is about TvP late game and the suggested hellion transition to counter chargelots, which has been deemed as ineffective, and not about the comparison between chargelots and cracklings.
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You just cannot switch into hellions if your initial infrastructure is for bio. The time for making all the factories + being way behind in upgrades just doesn't work. And hellion vs chargelot does not work the same as hellion vs speedlings. Hellions actually can't kill chargelots fast enough before the hellions die to anything else the toss might have (like colossi). Hell, BFH doesn't even hard counter chargelots (you do lose a bunch of your hellions) unless the toss derps into a choke.
The reason why chargelots are a problem in pvt is just like salehonasi said. While chargelots CAN be countered with mass marines, it's very easy for toss to tech switch between zealots/stalkers/Hts/archons, all which require different counters from terran that requires different addons and production facilities and upgrades (for example, going from marauders to hellions when you see chargelots means your mech upgrades are significantly behind), which means when a toss does a sudden tech switch lategame, terran cannot respond fast enough, especially when toss can warp them in immediately.
pvt in general is an awful mu, my vote for the most imbalanced in the game. earlygame terran is way too unpredictable, and unlike tvz where zergs can usually handle most early attacks with lings/blings/queens/spines before they can get their muta or infestors out (throw in roaches if he's heavy on hellions if you really want to, which is easy enough to spot), unupgraded zealots and stalkers are awful and sentries can only do so much, which means the tech route toss chooses has to blind counter whatever the terran did, because toss can't even scout what the terran is doing until observers (or hallucinated phoenix/real phoenix). And then if toss survives that shitfest, he just roflstomps terran to victory. I don't recall seing a pro level game where if the toss went into the lategame at even footing with the terran, he ended up losing. This is not good game design at all.
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I'm just drawing analogies to illustrate how to think about the matchup. I think most people can recognize that you cant beat 150 lings on open ground. So why do people expect to beat chargelots on open ground.
12 is short without a single upgrade, since colo have 1 armor.
It's obvious that hellions don't work. Positioning is the solution.
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EPT
