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I'd like to see replays of people naysaying the hellions vs zealots. Is suspect they aren't controlling them at all, and are simply allowing them to engage at the front and eat the zealot's damage.
There's two decent ways to control them with bio against a large number of zealots.
1. Keep the hellions behind a relatively small marine/marauder (Mostly marauder as long as you have enough hellions). Let the marauders eat the damage and slow the zealots while the hellions roast from the back.
2. Keep your units in a decent line and flank the zealot wall as it charges into your line. If you line up your hellion's properly, even orange hellions can roast packs of 4-5 zealots pretty quickly. This is something I don't see people do. Let the zealots engage, move your hellions up around your bio, to either side of the zealot wave and hit them across your line as they attack.
Obviously if colossi are involved, don't do it. Colossi just roast hellions too quickly.
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On January 28 2012 02:38 Felnarion wrote:
I'd like to see replays of people naysaying the hellions vs zealots. Is suspect they aren't controlling them at all, and are simply allowing them to engage at the front and eat the zealot's damage.
There's two decent ways to control them with bio against a large number of zealots.
1. Keep the hellions behind a relatively small marine/marauder (Mostly marauder as long as you have enough hellions). Let the marauders eat the damage and slow the zealots while the hellions roast from the back.
2. Keep your units in a decent line and flank the zealot wall as it charges into your line. If you line up your hellion's properly, even orange hellions can roast packs of 4-5 zealots pretty quickly. This is something I don't see people do. Let the zealots engage, move your hellions up around your bio, to either side of the zealot wave and hit them across your line as they attack.
Obviously if colossi are involved, don't do it. Colossi just roast hellions too quickly.
if you could flank their army and create a nice concave with rauders tanking damage, you could win just as easily with mass marines due to positioning. this will be more cost effective as well since you won't have to build extra factories, add-ons and get upgrades to make hellions somewhat relevant in the battle.
furthermore, hellions require more micro to squeeze out the level of efficiency you need in the battle. if you get too focused on hellion micro, you may end up losing 1 or 2 cycles of army production while you trade off with the toss army.
you should post up a replay of your own if this strat is really that much more effective than mass marine, and maybe it will also show how to deal with a unit switch when toss decides to warp in stalkers instead
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This thread, anyone?
It shows how Noblesse engaged a chargelot army, where he pulled his marines behind his marauders so they would stay alive instead of just a-moving and stutter stepping.
Let's just say that thread helped me a ton.
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On January 28 2012 04:42 unix04 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 02:38 Felnarion wrote:
I'd like to see replays of people naysaying the hellions vs zealots. Is suspect they aren't controlling them at all, and are simply allowing them to engage at the front and eat the zealot's damage.
There's two decent ways to control them with bio against a large number of zealots.
1. Keep the hellions behind a relatively small marine/marauder (Mostly marauder as long as you have enough hellions). Let the marauders eat the damage and slow the zealots while the hellions roast from the back.
2. Keep your units in a decent line and flank the zealot wall as it charges into your line. If you line up your hellion's properly, even orange hellions can roast packs of 4-5 zealots pretty quickly. This is something I don't see people do. Let the zealots engage, move your hellions up around your bio, to either side of the zealot wave and hit them across your line as they attack.
Obviously if colossi are involved, don't do it. Colossi just roast hellions too quickly. if you could flank their army and create a nice concave with rauders tanking damage, you could win just as easily with mass marines due to positioning. this will be more cost effective as well since you won't have to build extra factories, add-ons and get upgrades to make hellions somewhat relevant in the battle. furthermore, hellions require more micro to squeeze out the level of efficiency you need in the battle. if you get too focused on hellion micro, you may end up losing 1 or 2 cycles of army production while you trade off with the toss army. you should post up a replay of your own if this strat is really that much more effective than mass marine, and maybe it will also show how to deal with a unit switch when toss decides to warp in stalkers instead
I play Protoss and Zerg, not Terran.
To your points: Yeah, the infrastructure required isn't good, but then, 99% of the time you already have a factory. A reactor on it, constantly producing hellions, can get a lot out, quickly. Multiple factories aren't necessary, I'm not suggesting a full Hellion/Marauder build, you still need your marines.
As to the required flank, the hellions are quicker than marines, have more health, and require fewer numbers to do what we're trying to do. I think a flank with 5-10 hellions is easily doable.
And to the APM requirement, we're trying to work out strategies, not playing to the lowest common denominator. If you don't have the APM or skill required to try something out, that doesn't make the strategy invalid.
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Hellions aren't as good vs chargelots as the average player thinks.
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This is the main problem for TvP as a whole and why you see so many Terran All-ins. More marines is the correct response unfortunately for all of us Protoss late game units shit on marines (HT's/Colossi/Archons). I recently have either being doing a two base stim timing or playing a marine-thor-tank-ghost style of play which feels really strong in the little time I've been playing it.
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On January 28 2012 05:52 deathtrance wrote:This thread, anyone?It shows how Noblesse engaged a chargelot army, where he pulled his marines behind his marauders so they would stay alive instead of just a-moving and stutter stepping. Let's just say that thread helped me a ton.
That game is far from standard and over all a bad example of how to "TvP". Make marauders take damage instead of marine that great. Drop harassing a Protoss in 5 different spots for 5 minutes straight while up 50 supply when you can just walk in the front door and kill him is unnecessary and far from standard and is how you lose games that you're way ahead in.
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Erm, he was up 50 supply because of the multiple drops. He started at maybe +20 supply which isn't exactly a crushing advantage.
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On January 28 2012 06:09 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 04:42 unix04 wrote:On January 28 2012 02:38 Felnarion wrote:
I'd like to see replays of people naysaying the hellions vs zealots. Is suspect they aren't controlling them at all, and are simply allowing them to engage at the front and eat the zealot's damage.
There's two decent ways to control them with bio against a large number of zealots.
1. Keep the hellions behind a relatively small marine/marauder (Mostly marauder as long as you have enough hellions). Let the marauders eat the damage and slow the zealots while the hellions roast from the back.
2. Keep your units in a decent line and flank the zealot wall as it charges into your line. If you line up your hellion's properly, even orange hellions can roast packs of 4-5 zealots pretty quickly. This is something I don't see people do. Let the zealots engage, move your hellions up around your bio, to either side of the zealot wave and hit them across your line as they attack.
Obviously if colossi are involved, don't do it. Colossi just roast hellions too quickly. if you could flank their army and create a nice concave with rauders tanking damage, you could win just as easily with mass marines due to positioning. this will be more cost effective as well since you won't have to build extra factories, add-ons and get upgrades to make hellions somewhat relevant in the battle. furthermore, hellions require more micro to squeeze out the level of efficiency you need in the battle. if you get too focused on hellion micro, you may end up losing 1 or 2 cycles of army production while you trade off with the toss army. you should post up a replay of your own if this strat is really that much more effective than mass marine, and maybe it will also show how to deal with a unit switch when toss decides to warp in stalkers instead I play Protoss and Zerg, not Terran. To your points: Yeah, the infrastructure required isn't good, but then, 99% of the time you already have a factory. A reactor on it, constantly producing hellions, can get a lot out, quickly. Multiple factories aren't necessary, I'm not suggesting a full Hellion/Marauder build, you still need your marines. As to the required flank, the hellions are quicker than marines, have more health, and require fewer numbers to do what we're trying to do. I think a flank with 5-10 hellions is easily doable. And to the APM requirement, we're trying to work out strategies, not playing to the lowest common denominator. If you don't have the APM or skill required to try something out, that doesn't make the strategy invalid.
i think if you try to flank when the engagement starts, the chargelots will just end up surrounding the hellions on the move unless you go really wide with your flank. generally the best option is to try to pick your engagements so your units are spread out just before the engagement in a good location. this is not to say hellions are not viable (or invalid as you point out), but this is to say that marines are probably the better choice if we're going to flank the protoss army and pick a favorable engagement. at that point, it's not so much the hellions but the formation that will win you the battle.
as for the APM requirement, i think it come's down to what is practical. a lot of strats are viable against chargelot armies, including hellions, but giving a strat that requires say, diamond level, micro/macro skill will probably be invalid to those in gold and below until they get better. it's not a knock on the strat itself, but what the available options are and what makes them better for the player.
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Charglots will always have the advantage out in the open field, however you can use simcity and natural map chokes to enchance ur cost effectiveness alot. Think zerglings vs bio, same idea use chokes walls etc and the zealots will be pretty worthless.
Also against smaller numbers of zealots you can easily stutterstep, its just down to ur micro, think mass marine vs protoss sure u can kite them with stalkers but most player dont have that good micro, its the same idea here, tosses are just throwing zealots at you and hoping you are bad and can't micro, don't worry these player are killing there longterm improvement so just laugh it off and enjoy the micro practice.
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Spreading out should not be done against heavy chargelot armies, you won't have the concentrated DPS to melt them. Spreading out is only against poorly composed armies with not enough cover for the colossi.
The decision is between clumping and kiting vs spreading out. Depends on the situation.
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i dont get why terrans dont just double expo after they get first 2 medivacs, you keep protoss in their base while harassing/etc and haveing double their economy with mules, and if they go for 2 base timeing just put everything u have in medivacs and base race terran need to innovate imo and stop trying to be even with protoss cuz they will always lose
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My 14 tanks and 20 hellions laugh in the face of any amount of zealots. MECH PRIDE.
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late game tvp is so hard, you have to play literally 2x as good as them once they get a super economy 2 robos and like 15+ warpgates. Its barely possible but it can be done, hopefully blizzard does something about terran late game units soon
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On January 28 2012 08:41 LeGendzErg wrote:
i dont get why terrans dont just double expo after they get first 2 medivacs, you keep protoss in their base while harassing/etc and haveing double their economy with mules, and if they go for 2 base timeing just put everything u have in medivacs and base race terran need to innovate imo and stop trying to be even with protoss cuz they will always lose
they scout your doing that and do a colossus timing and you die
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Why don't protoss just tech switch to void rays when they see a lot of mech?
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You have to engage in a choke point, but thats not always readily avaliable. You just have to stim and kite as best you can with an army that is bigger and hopefully better upgrades.
If we are talking late late late game where the terran can sacrafice scv and both players are at 3-3 I don't really think that there is a problem. however if its like 130 supply protoss army against 130 supply terran army terran needs to have good emp good kiting and can't engage as a ball, needs to be an arch.
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On February 03 2012 04:17 cydial wrote:
Why don't protoss just tech switch to void rays when they see a lot of mech?
because voidrays take a long time to build and you need alot of money for the infrastructure to produce them 
mech doesn't work, toss air doesn't work vice versa.
people are just to lazy, to transition timely
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I have a question, in super late game when your OC count gets high (infinite mules), why not pull 10-20 SCVs every engagement to tank for your units (e.g. 1/1/1 or marine all-ins)? They soak up damage quite well and additionally free up supply. Plus the marine DPS will just eat up zealots in the 5seconds you get
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Protoss is imbalanced, like for real. Their upgrades works for all ground units = they can tech switch without problems. They have cheaper and faster upgrades + most units come from 2 production facilities (gateway and robo). A ball with colossus, chargelots, archons HTs and just any unit is impossible to break. Protoss is superior to terran in EVERY part late game, they just need to turtle and wait and the a-move. This needs a fix, now. PvT is a shitty matchup atm since this imbalance forces many terrans to 1-base...
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EPT
