|
On January 27 2012 10:05 tainted muffin wrote:
a stimmed marauder does more damage vs light than a blue flame hellion marauder also have more health more armor can be healed and it's upgrades stack with ghosts and marines.
But they don't have AOE. You don't fight 1 on 1 with units, so don't do math for 1 on 1 fights when talking about compositions.
When i meet a terran that adds BF hellions to his 200/200 composition i pray noone else will do this to me in the future, because of how silly chargelots are vs that. Melting in seconds and exposing rest of the army. Hellions are also cost efficient vs stalkers (talking about compositions).
|
On February 03 2012 05:55 Teoodorh wrote:
Protoss is imbalanced, like for real. Their upgrades works for all ground units = they can tech switch without problems. They have cheaper and faster upgrades + most units come from 2 production facilities (gateway and robo). A ball with colossus, chargelots, archons HTs and just any unit is impossible to break. Protoss is superior to terran in EVERY part late game, they just need to turtle and wait and the a-move. This needs a fix, now. PvT is a shitty matchup atm since this imbalance forces many terrans to 1-base...
You haven't been keeping up with the times? Fighting a protoss in a deathball is VERY difficult but also doable with some good positioning.
1) Drop like a madman! Snipe pylons, tech, probes, ANYTHING and then get out for free! Great way to at least force warpins or an army move into a less advantageous position. Comboed with a poke n prod at the front you could snipe some important tech or thin the gateway units without losing much. Drop enough and then they split their stalkers off to kill the drops pre-emptively and you can abuse so much supply not being a part of the main army.
2) Have three bio-balls running around and a detachment of ghosts. Once toss moves out get a 360 degree concave, snipe off the tech in back (collosus, I'm looking at you) and use your ghosts to emp the cluster of slow HTs not ready to be hit (hell use the snipe spell if you have the energy to EMP the gateway units too!)
3) Deny the third as long as possible, it is very easy to do in the midgame with mauraders, marines, and medivacs.
|
On February 03 2012 06:45 TG Manny wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 05:55 Teoodorh wrote:
Protoss is imbalanced, like for real. Their upgrades works for all ground units = they can tech switch without problems. They have cheaper and faster upgrades + most units come from 2 production facilities (gateway and robo). A ball with colossus, chargelots, archons HTs and just any unit is impossible to break. Protoss is superior to terran in EVERY part late game, they just need to turtle and wait and the a-move. This needs a fix, now. PvT is a shitty matchup atm since this imbalance forces many terrans to 1-base... You haven't been keeping up with the times? Fighting a protoss in a deathball is VERY difficult but also doable with some good positioning. 1) Drop like a madman! Snipe pylons, tech, probes, ANYTHING and then get out for free! Great way to at least force warpins or an army move into a less advantageous position. Comboed with a poke n prod at the front you could snipe some important tech or thin the gateway units without losing much. Drop enough and then they split their stalkers off to kill the drops pre-emptively and you can abuse so much supply not being a part of the main army. 2) Have three bio-balls running around and a detachment of ghosts. Once toss moves out get a 360 degree concave, snipe off the tech in back (collosus, I'm looking at you) and use your ghosts to emp the cluster of slow HTs not ready to be hit (hell use the snipe spell if you have the energy to EMP the gateway units too!) 3) Deny the third as long as possible, it is very easy to do in the midgame with mauraders, marines, and medivacs.
I agree with all this. As Protoss, when Terran lets me sit back and macro up to 3-4 bases, losing is pretty difficult. Some of the better Terran's I've played do stuff like drop in my main w/ a medevac or 2 and when I pull my army to deal with that, stim in with the rest of their army and then it forces me to micro on 2 fronts. Honestly, Terrans who don't drop baffle me as they are forgoing one of the biggest advantages that they get.
|
The biggest blatant question to me is: Tech switch to what exactly? With mauraders and open ground you can at least kite them if you have room, which also keeps you somewhat safe from storms.
Siege tanks? Then you can't kite, your tanks won't do enough damage to flat kill the chargelots unless you have a bunch of them, and then they get stormed on and when the protoss warps in a bunch of blink stalkers, you lose all your tanks (which is a lot worse than losing a bunch of bio)
Hellions? If you have enough of them, you're still either kiting them like they're marines and mauraders because they're squishy, or they're attacking something else while your hellions are trying to get an ideal angle to shoot from. If they get targeted they just evaporate.
Banshees? Maybe. If you can ghost snipe the templar in time to not get all your banshees stormed/feedback and/or get his observer, you can get all the zealots and if you have enough other stuff still the stalkers shouldn't be too scary. I think this is why we're seeing more heavy marine banshee thor mixes lately.
moar ghosts!(?) Super expensive. If you can afford that many ghosts you can just snipe and lol your way through chargelots, and if you mix in mauraders theoretically you should be fine against most gateway forces, and templar shouldn't scare you. However....that's a ton of money in ghosts.
-
To me the matchup is just kind of in a wonky development stage where it all looks bad. You either have to go with the theory that the game is badly designed, or the game that's only starting it's second year isn't that that developed for either race, and that matchup really really isnt yet, as it's only NOW really starting to come up fairly often at a high level as the protoss have started to really catch up.
|
On February 03 2012 07:03 mahi29 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 06:45 TG Manny wrote:On February 03 2012 05:55 Teoodorh wrote:
Protoss is imbalanced, like for real. Their upgrades works for all ground units = they can tech switch without problems. They have cheaper and faster upgrades + most units come from 2 production facilities (gateway and robo). A ball with colossus, chargelots, archons HTs and just any unit is impossible to break. Protoss is superior to terran in EVERY part late game, they just need to turtle and wait and the a-move. This needs a fix, now. PvT is a shitty matchup atm since this imbalance forces many terrans to 1-base... You haven't been keeping up with the times? Fighting a protoss in a deathball is VERY difficult but also doable with some good positioning. 1) Drop like a madman! Snipe pylons, tech, probes, ANYTHING and then get out for free! Great way to at least force warpins or an army move into a less advantageous position. Comboed with a poke n prod at the front you could snipe some important tech or thin the gateway units without losing much. Drop enough and then they split their stalkers off to kill the drops pre-emptively and you can abuse so much supply not being a part of the main army. 2) Have three bio-balls running around and a detachment of ghosts. Once toss moves out get a 360 degree concave, snipe off the tech in back (collosus, I'm looking at you) and use your ghosts to emp the cluster of slow HTs not ready to be hit (hell use the snipe spell if you have the energy to EMP the gateway units too!) 3) Deny the third as long as possible, it is very easy to do in the midgame with mauraders, marines, and medivacs. I agree with all this. As Protoss, when Terran lets me sit back and macro up to 3-4 bases, losing is pretty difficult. Some of the better Terran's I've played do stuff like drop in my main w/ a medevac or 2 and when I pull my army to deal with that, stim in with the rest of their army and then it forces me to micro on 2 fronts. Honestly, Terrans who don't drop baffle me as they are forgoing one of the biggest advantages that they get.
Why does it baffle you? It requires very good multitask for T to pull that off, since T has to micro on 2 fronts aswell obviously. Plus most Tosses keep stalkers near their base to prevent drops, atleast in diamond level where I play.
|
On February 03 2012 07:47 cellblock wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 07:03 mahi29 wrote:On February 03 2012 06:45 TG Manny wrote:On February 03 2012 05:55 Teoodorh wrote:
Protoss is imbalanced, like for real. Their upgrades works for all ground units = they can tech switch without problems. They have cheaper and faster upgrades + most units come from 2 production facilities (gateway and robo). A ball with colossus, chargelots, archons HTs and just any unit is impossible to break. Protoss is superior to terran in EVERY part late game, they just need to turtle and wait and the a-move. This needs a fix, now. PvT is a shitty matchup atm since this imbalance forces many terrans to 1-base... You haven't been keeping up with the times? Fighting a protoss in a deathball is VERY difficult but also doable with some good positioning. 1) Drop like a madman! Snipe pylons, tech, probes, ANYTHING and then get out for free! Great way to at least force warpins or an army move into a less advantageous position. Comboed with a poke n prod at the front you could snipe some important tech or thin the gateway units without losing much. Drop enough and then they split their stalkers off to kill the drops pre-emptively and you can abuse so much supply not being a part of the main army. 2) Have three bio-balls running around and a detachment of ghosts. Once toss moves out get a 360 degree concave, snipe off the tech in back (collosus, I'm looking at you) and use your ghosts to emp the cluster of slow HTs not ready to be hit (hell use the snipe spell if you have the energy to EMP the gateway units too!) 3) Deny the third as long as possible, it is very easy to do in the midgame with mauraders, marines, and medivacs. I agree with all this. As Protoss, when Terran lets me sit back and macro up to 3-4 bases, losing is pretty difficult. Some of the better Terran's I've played do stuff like drop in my main w/ a medevac or 2 and when I pull my army to deal with that, stim in with the rest of their army and then it forces me to micro on 2 fronts. Honestly, Terrans who don't drop baffle me as they are forgoing one of the biggest advantages that they get. Why does it baffle you? It requires very good multitask for T to pull that off, since T has to micro on 2 fronts aswell obviously. Plus most Tosses keep stalkers near their base to prevent drops, atleast in diamond level where I play.
Good Protosses won't allow for insane damage-dealing drops w/ good vision and stalkers. And I understand that dropping is APM-taxing. But sometimes I play Terrans who don't even attempt to drop at all. I can't see a reason as to not do that. If your drop is repelled by you seeing a few stalkers at the edge waiting, no loss right, but still Terran has to try it right?
|
On January 27 2012 08:36 salehonasi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 07:28 RieuK wrote:
The problem with tech-switching for Ts is that since they invested so much into the rax for the bioball, they do not have the resources or the time to build factories to pump out hellions.
Also, 3/3/3 zealots against (most likely) 0/0 red flame hellions isn't great! Completely true. It costs far less for the Protoss to tech switch to Chargelots because they should already have lots of Gateways. In addition to the cost, there's a significant delay; you need 60 seconds to build Factories, and 110 seconds to research Preigniter. This gives the Protoss a minimum of 110 seconds, assuming you switch the factories onto existing addons, before you can have Blueflame Hellions are on the field, and as much as 170 if the Terran lost their Factory scouting. The biggest problem, of course, is that while the Hellions will solve your Zeal/Archon Problem, the Protoss can immediately transition out, and produce Stalkers. While Hellions are great units to have in all matchups, mass hellion is not what you want to be stuck with against Stalker/Colossus. Marines are a better answer, so long as you are 3/3; they do not excel vs. Chargelots, due to Zealot's base 1 armor, and because of their reliance on a high rate of fire, you're fairly screwed if behind on upgrades. They start to trade well, however, when their range kicks in in larger engagements. You need to have your Marauders in front, abusing their base armor against the zealots, and never, ever let the Zealots wrap around you. Kite back, get into an enclosed area, and let them do their work. Really, the main issue many Terrans lategame vs. Chargelots is when you have massive engagements between your deathball armies. Oftentimes, the two destroy each other; EMPs rain down, Colossus burn off huge quantities of infantry, Storms kill everything, you know the drill. Unless Terran dominates their opponent, they're going to a very small army, or possibly no army. When a Protoss gets into the endgame, they should start spending lots of their excess minerals on Gateways. So, when the dust settles, they can immediately Warp-in 20 or so Chargelots from a forward pylon, Chronoboost as many gateways as they can, and use the swell of units and rapid reinforcement to overwhelm the Terran before they can get a critical mass of Bio together to defend.
Definately agree.
Terrans best choice is going marine-heavy to be honest, with enough ghosts to emp everything, and most crucially the HT's. Which is quite hard though since one well-placed storm ends everything and you gotta also split due to collosus and micro and kite chargelots.
|
OP, tech switching to bfh requires 2 additional factories, blue flame upgrade, and vehicle upgrades to be effective. It takes too long. Switching to mass chargelots, on the other hand, is pretty simple. Research charge and you can start warping in zealots. I mean, sure it may be effective if terran did it in advance, but then again, if protoss scouts that they wouldnt make the chargelots, and you cannot really hide 2 more factories from the observers. I think there are definitely compositions that would work better than the status quo we are seeing in TvP, but they are difficult to switch to for terran and hence T has to stick with and enhance the core unit composition they have in the midgane - MMM.
|
On February 03 2012 07:03 mahi29 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2012 06:45 TG Manny wrote:On February 03 2012 05:55 Teoodorh wrote:
Protoss is imbalanced, like for real. Their upgrades works for all ground units = they can tech switch without problems. They have cheaper and faster upgrades + most units come from 2 production facilities (gateway and robo). A ball with colossus, chargelots, archons HTs and just any unit is impossible to break. Protoss is superior to terran in EVERY part late game, they just need to turtle and wait and the a-move. This needs a fix, now. PvT is a shitty matchup atm since this imbalance forces many terrans to 1-base... You haven't been keeping up with the times? Fighting a protoss in a deathball is VERY difficult but also doable with some good positioning. 1) Drop like a madman! Snipe pylons, tech, probes, ANYTHING and then get out for free! Great way to at least force warpins or an army move into a less advantageous position. Comboed with a poke n prod at the front you could snipe some important tech or thin the gateway units without losing much. Drop enough and then they split their stalkers off to kill the drops pre-emptively and you can abuse so much supply not being a part of the main army. 2) Have three bio-balls running around and a detachment of ghosts. Once toss moves out get a 360 degree concave, snipe off the tech in back (collosus, I'm looking at you) and use your ghosts to emp the cluster of slow HTs not ready to be hit (hell use the snipe spell if you have the energy to EMP the gateway units too!) 3) Deny the third as long as possible, it is very easy to do in the midgame with mauraders, marines, and medivacs. I agree with all this. As Protoss, when Terran lets me sit back and macro up to 3-4 bases, losing is pretty difficult. Some of the better Terran's I've played do stuff like drop in my main w/ a medevac or 2 and when I pull my army to deal with that, stim in with the rest of their army and then it forces me to micro on 2 fronts. Honestly, Terrans who don't drop baffle me as they are forgoing one of the biggest advantages that they get.
Sometimes if Terran goes for a 4 rax instead of a 3 rax, they lose the timing window were drops can do a lot of damage in return for a strong midgame timing attack. They will not drop you before the 11 minute mark, and later drops are situational only. It all depends on the style terran has chosen; a stronger timing with a 4 rax, or a harass based 3 rax play. Drops can be good in TvP, but they can also set you behind if you are not careful or unlucky; but they are not essential in anyway if you go for different builds.
|
OMG if you just watched EmpireHappy v CreatorPrime on IPL TAC 2, mass ghosts completely shatters late game chargelots. He has more ghosts than marine/marauder (with vikings for colossi) and they are just so so strong. OMG ANOTHER ENGAGEMENT LOL GHOSTS SO STRONG.
He even tried switching into stalkers and colossi and as long as you have vikings for colossi, ghosts dominate.
|
I am starting to dislike vikings. Sure they have great range and do good damage, but they suck so bad after the collosus are dead. If toss has lots of collosus you need so much supply worth of vikings that your bio army gets owned by zealots anyway. I also hate how my vikings die super fast whenever I fight because I'm too busy trying to kite the zealots with my marauders. It seems like you need such a huge number of vikings so they can just power down the collosus before they all die. Vikings also die really fast against +3 stalkers. Maybe I would like vikings more if I could kite them against the collosus while kiting the zealots with marauders, but I just don't have the apm to do that.
I am trying to use banshees and BCs now. I get enough vikings to stay safe from early collosus then once I have 3 bases I throw down 2 more starports and switch into marauder/banshee/ghost/medivac. If I can afford it I go for 3 starport BCs, but it's hard to do in any but the most passive games. I like getting ship weapon upgrades for vikings so banshees will come out with good upgrades. +2 or +3 banshees do an absurd amount of damage to ground.
I like banshees a lot more than vikings because banshees clear out the zealots pretty quickly so the marauders can wipe the floor with everything else. Sniping the observer and cloaking is cool.
Banshees give the toss the following options
1) Make stalkers which get owned by marauders
2) Make phoenixes. I don't know how this would work out as I have yet to face it.
3) Mass HT for storm/feedback. It's easy to EMP your own banshees to nullify feedback. This forces the toss to have nice HT control against your ghosts or the banshees will destroy everything.
4) Lots of archons. Only useful if the banshees are stacked.
5) Voidrays. Not great against banshees and get owned by marines
6) Carriers. Lol...
The one thing the toss can't do against banshees is remax on pure chargelot/HT/archon as is very common these days.
I used to spend all my excess gas on ghosts, but having 15 ghosts wasn't working too well (maybe sniping zealots could work? 4 snipes to kill a zealot isn't bad). I think spending extra gas on banshees has potential. I'm going to keep trying to use them late game TvP and see what happens.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
